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I'm going to wax Jeffersonian. "He nerfs best who nerfs least." Was this the absolute smallest change that could have been made to Crane Wing to repair the perceived defect? Or was this the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction? Decide for yourself.
I think the feat needed to be changed and the proposed changes are good. I would like to see an official ruling on how Crane Riposte works with the errata'ed feat so that you can make an attack whether or not the +4 dodge bonus causes the attack to fail.
I would also be fine with Rogue Eidolon's
Quick fix to make it work with riposte and buff it a little (since much as the old one was hugely problematic, I agree this new one is pretty weak):
After an announced attack roll beats your AC but before damage is rolled (or if you roll damage at the same time, just don't announce it yet), you can choose to gain +4 AC. If this makes the attack miss, you can riposte.
I would still build a character around either one of these options nor would I complain if an NPC with these rules were used against me.
Lead Designer
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If a large bunch of people simply stop using it all together (largely in your PFS model) either from resignation to the change or the fact that's a big investment for a very poor result all that you will 'hear' is... Nothing. Under that model the 'problem' will likely come across as "fixed". Certainly those left won't pump out enough of a signal to get a second look from a consistently busy Dev/Rules team... It will slide into the 'check it later' pile to sit there for a very long time.
Again, this is not the case. We revisit issues quite frequently, even if no one is clamoring for them to be changed. Its our job.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I still think increased bonuses and decreased penalties for fighting defensively are a pretty big deal, and I can still see someone taking these feats for a specialized build.
I still think Crane Riposte needs to be reworded to allow that bonus attack. I know the intent is that it works, but unless the players and GMs come to this board, they won't necessarily know that. Add in the verbiage please.
I also think Crane Wing needs to be rolled back to find a happy medium. Like many here, I think the errata went a bit too far.
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Out of curiosity Jason what changes were made based off of board feedback. Was it prone shooter?
Blood Crow Strike's alignment issues too, IIRC.
The Amulet of Mighty Fists repricing and the return of classic Flurry of Blows too.
That said, the change to Crane Wing is disheartening to me, especially when making a workable unarmed DEX monk is frustrating enough as it is.
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If a large bunch of people simply stop using it all together (largely in your PFS model) either from resignation to the change or the fact that's a big investment for a very poor result all that you will 'hear' is... Nothing. Under that model the 'problem' will likely come across as "fixed". Certainly those left won't pump out enough of a signal to get a second look from a consistently busy Dev/Rules team... It will slide into the 'check it later' pile to sit there for a very long time.Again, this is not the case. We revisit issues quite frequently, even if no one is clamoring for them to be changed. Its our job.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Sorry Jason, if you honestly believe that Monks went from poor, unusable classes at the bottom of everyone's list, to Overpowered with one feat that has so many prerequisites then we are done here.
You have successfully killed my desire to finally play a monk.
Sorry Jason, if you honestly believe that Monks went from poor, unusable classes at the bottom of everyone's list, to Overpowered with one feat that has so many prerequisites then we are done here.
You have successfully killed my desire to finally play a monk.
Hold on here. Don't condemn him for bringing the monk down for this.
The problem is that the Master of Many Styles was too dip friendly to get Crane Wing.
As a tool of the Monk's, Crane Wing wasn't overpowered at all. It made them fairly good.
You have successfully killed my desire to finally play a monk.
Oh come one dude. It's not like monks were that awesome building dex and taking additional penalties to-hit anyways.
Chances are if the monk doesn't do it for you without the feat, then you weren't going to have that much fun with the monk anyways.
EDIT: Also I don't think Jason is God handing out nerfs from the mountain top. Many different people were involved with the nerf.
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Sorry Jason, if you honestly believe that Monks went from poor, unusable classes at the bottom of everyone's list, to Overpowered with one feat that has so many prerequisites then we are done here.
You have successfully killed my desire to finally play a monk.
Hold on here. Don't condemn him for bringing the monk down for this.
The problem is that the Master of Many Styles was too dip friendly to get Crane Wing.
As a tool of the Monk's, Crane Wing wasn't overpowered at all. It made them fairly good.
It does seem to be a recurring problem for the class:
AoMF gets overpriced because of what non-monks can do with it.
The original Vow of Poverty gets trashed as overpowered because of what druids were doing with it, not monks.
Then the MoMS dip for Crane Wing.
But yes, people need to stop making this personal.
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As a tool of the Monk's, Crane Wing wasn't overpowered at all. It made them fairly good.
No it didn't...
Sorry Jason, if you honestly believe that Monks went from poor, unusable classes at the bottom of everyone's list, to Overpowered with one feat that has so many prerequisites then we are done here.
You have successfully killed my desire to finally play a monk.
Hold on here. Don't condemn him for bringing the monk down for this.
The problem is that the Master of Many Styles was too dip friendly to get Crane Wing.
As a tool of the Monk's, Crane Wing wasn't overpowered at all. It made them fairly good.
It does seem to be a recurring problem for the class:
AoMF gets overpriced because of what non-monks can do with it.
The original Vow of Poverty gets trashed as overpowered because of what druids were doing with it, not monks.
Then the MoMS dip for Crane Wing.
Animal Companions got nerfed to make the Cavalier look good from what I hear.
And there might be a connection between the Swashbuckler's Parry and Crane Wing as well.
How did animal companions get nerfed?
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As a tool of the Monk's, Crane Wing wasn't overpowered at all. It made them fairly good.No it didn't...
No, it made them playable.
So, I read a whole lot of this, but not all of it. There are a lot of posts here. Basically, I'm wondering what the current status is. Is Crane Riposte a broke feat, because you can't AoO with full defense, or has there been an official change to that feat as well?
So if an opponent misses me while using the fight defensively action with CRANE WING, does CRANE RIPOSTE allow me to attack them with my attack of opportunity, or is that ONLY for when I'm taking the full defense action?
My player desperately wants to know.
^ Exactly. I would be fine if it worked when that attack misses. It would be quite the downgrade, but I wouldn't be too butt hurt. However, I don't ever go full defense, so I'd scrap this character if that's what was required.
So, I read a whole lot of this, but not all of it. There are a lot of posts here. Basically, I'm wondering what the current status is. Is Crane Riposte a broke feat, because you can't AoO with full defense, or has there been an official change to that feat as well?
So if an opponent misses me while using the fight defensively action with CRANE WING, does CRANE RIPOSTE allow me to attack them with my attack of opportunity, or is that ONLY for when I'm taking the full defense action?
My player desperately wants to know.
I think that Riposte only applies if you are using Total Defense . . . and ONLY on the single attack that you get the +4 bonus to AC on (designating it as such BEFORE the attack roll). Sucks to be sure, but that is how I read it (and Jason's explanation).
MA
Did Jason clarify it already? (Read, answer my question.)
Jason Buhlmahn has a post on this. Here's what he said:
2. The Crane Riposte feat still works just fine. It ALLOWS you to take an AoO in that specific circumstance (even though you normally could not). It could perhaps use a callout specifically to that effect, but the wording is pretty plain.
It seems ambiguous to me whether an AoO could be taken if the +4 dodge bonus from Crane Wing (fighting defensively) causes the attack to miss or if the AoO from Crane Riposte can only be taken if one is using full defense. I would expect that the former is the case but I'm sure we'll get a clarification soon enough.
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I'm afraid that was not my player's question, Boggard.
My player's question was this: Can he make a riposte attack while fighting defensively?
I will add to the "too far" crowd. Again though the only time I see issue with it is in hyper-defensive characters, and MoMS monks. I must say that the style feats, this one in particular, sold Ultimate Combat to a lot of people. The thought that martials, especially monks, were getting helped was a great thing. This feat, at the very least, should let you gain +4 ac after you are attacked.
Jason Buhlmahn has a post on this. Here's what he said:
2. The Crane Riposte feat still works just fine. It ALLOWS you to take an AoO in that specific circumstance (even though you normally could not). It could perhaps use a callout specifically to that effect, but the wording is pretty plain.It seems ambiguous to me whether an AoO could be taken if the +4 dodge bonus from Crane Wing (fighting defensively) causes the attack to miss or if the AoO from Crane Riposte can only be taken if one is using full defense. I would expect that the former is the case but I'm sure we'll get a clarification soon enough.
I love the part "It could perhaps use a callout specifically to that effect, but the wording is pretty plain" when, pretty much no one but him believed that Crane Riposte worked with anything but total defense (if that is what he means; it's not even clear, after this, what he actually meant with regards to fighting defensively), and even so, he doesn't clarify at all beyond that it "still works just fine".
I'm afraid that was not my player's question, Boggard.
My player's question was this: Can he make a riposte attack while fighting defensively?
Agreed - have a look at my comment after the Buhlmahn quote.
Is this the final update to the printing? No fixing myrmidarch so there's no RAW issue with ranged spellstrike?
There is no RAW issue with ranged spellstrike, only that people want ranged spell combat with it as well.
Is this the final update to the printing? No fixing myrmidarch so there's no RAW issue with ranged spellstrike?There is no RAW issue with ranged spellstrike, only that people want ranged spell combat with it as well.
How does this work?
At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost. This ability replaces spell recall and improved
spell recall.
You can't use a full attack while casting a spell. You also can't use it the next round after casting the spell because you can't hold ray spells.
How did animal companions get nerfed?
That's what I want to know...
That's what I want to know...How did animal companions get nerfed?
I've seen some mentions about them being allowed to wear armor and then not?
Why couldn't they? It's called boarding! It's specifically for animals and non-humanoids! it makes no sense...
I never even noticed that they got it for free. I gotta check my Core book...
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Well, there's a fine errata to ignore.
Take no offensive action to negate one attack, and spend how many feats to get to that point? Pass.
Is this the final update to the printing? No fixing myrmidarch so there's no RAW issue with ranged spellstrike?There is no RAW issue with ranged spellstrike, only that people want ranged spell combat with it as well.How does this work?
You can't use a full attack while casting a spell. You also can't use it the next round after casting the spell because you can't hold ray spells.At 11th level, a myrmidarch using a multiple-target spell with this ability may deliver one ray or line of effect with each attack when using a full-attack action, up to the maximum allowed by the spell (in the case of ray effects). Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost. This ability replaces spell recall and improved
spell recall.
Spell combat much?
I'm afraid that was not my player's question, Boggard.
My player's question was this: Can he make a riposte attack while fighting defensively?
Jason did said
"It ALLOWS you to take an AoO in that specific circumstance( even though you normally could not)"
Except he was referring to using the full defense action, not the fighting defensively action, wasn't he?
People want spell combat at all, and ranged spellstrike that works with a variety of spells without losing most of the spell.
Single target range touch spells aren't very common and neither are multi target ranged touch spells. And since the 11th level version of ranged spellstrike doesn't work without spell combat at all, people expected the errata to fix the archetype somehow.
But the errata doesn't address the problem at all. So, as written, with our without the errata, the Myrmidarch only works with light or one handed melee weapons that can be thrown.
So, as written, with our without the errata, the Myrmidarch only works with light or one handed melee weapons that can be thrown.I'm rather partial to the idea of a myrmidarch with a sword cane pistol myself.
Interesting notion. Can a magus get a cane pistol down to a free action reload?
WIch, perhaps, is the intention.
So, as written, with our without the errata, the Myrmidarch only works with light or one handed melee weapons that can be thrown.
Perhaps. But if so, it's a waste of space in the book because throwing weapons are horrible, and the archetype is so weak that anyone wanting to use then could just make a traditional magus without all the penalties of the Myrmidarch. Ranged spellstrike only works with spells that already have range, so it'd usually be more effective to just make the regular touch attack rolls and not bother spellstriking at all.