One of my PCs is considering whether to take Sonic Thrust as a spell known when he gains a level, which I hope will happen next session. As evidenced by the Weird Words thread and others, there seems to be a lot of confusion regarding buffs and ranged attacks, especially those granted by spells. I’d rather handle questions about how the spell should work now than during gaming sessions or after it has been used a few times and potentially changed the outcomes of battles.
Here are some conclusions I've drawn about Sonic Thrust after a little research along with some questions I can’t quite settle on the answers to.
Conclusions:
C#1 - Casting Sonic Thrust will allow my PC who casts as a 10th level Bard to make up to 10 attacks with hurled objects.
C#2 - All 10 attacks can be against the same “particular” target.
C#3 - These attacks require attack rolls and therefore would benefit from Good Hope and Inspire Courage.
C#4 - Within 30’ these attacks would benefit from Discordant Voice. Apparently Weird Words can, so why not hurled items?
Questions:
Q#1 - Would hurling magic weapons provide a bonus to the attack rolls?
Q#2 - Would hurling magic weapons provide a bonus to the damage rolls?
Q#3 - Can you hurl objects which are carried on your person such as arrows from a quiver (possibly stored points up), or do the objects need to be unattended?
Q#4 - Pursuant to question 3, what sort of action would it be for a monkey familiar to dump a quiver of arrows or bag of rocks?
Q#5 - Could Flame Arrow add +1d6 fire damage to each attack? (assuming the attacks were made with the enchanted arrows, stones, shurikens, etc)
The Conclusions are based on my reading of the spell along with various threads and FAQs. They're certainly open to challenge though. The Questions are stuff I'm particularly uncertain about. I'm also interested in knowing whether folks think I'm trying to make the spell serve an unintended purpose by using it to hurl weapons. Since the spell description gives specific details on hurling weapons it seems to me like that must be an expected use of the spell.
I'm not 100% certain but:
1) No, it tells you it's BAB+casting stat modifier
2) Maybe, it tells you causes standard damage. If the enhancements counts as "standard" then yes. I'd probably allow it.
3) I think yes, but remember all objects affected must be within 10 of each other. So, if you target objects you can you can only target one other square within 5 ft of you.
4) I don't think it would be necessary, but if it was it would require a move action to manipulate the quiver and a free action dump out the items.
5) No, I don't think so.
Hurling a magic weapon wouldnt provide any bonus on the attack roll, any more than a magic table being flung would. It would not affec the damage roll either. ditto for flame arrow.
If the arrows are in your quiver then casting sonic thrust on them would send them violently away from you while in your quiver. This is problematic You have no facting or direction. If it did work you would go through alot of quivers and possibly neck strain from the strap.
Actions for a familiar would be the same as anyone else.
C2) I'd Say "Must" Target One Target.
1 & 2) Enchantment Is Meant To Be Used With a Wielded Weapon. I'd Say No To This.
3) Considering Fluff Text Says "Goes Straight Away From You" (paraphrasing), I'd Be Wary Of This. Are You Firing Straight Up? Are You Bowing Over Double At Your Target? I'd Lean Towards No.
4) Standard Action At Least, If Not Full Round. Disconnect Quiver, Move It To Proper Square For Aiming At Target, Dump Carefully. Not a Quick And Simple Action.
5) This I'd Say Ok To, Oddly Enough.
Oh
My
GodBe Paladin
Have Unsactioned Knowledge with this spell
Smite with 15 swords lying around
YES.
I never realized how much I needed this till now.
Okay so I just reread this list, so first off
1: hurling magic weapons: each arrow is treated as a dagger for damage value, I advise buying large size arrows, they will need to be enchanted in batches can get expensive, but this attack is just making a normal range attack like with a bow, where you cannot mighty it, and you use int or cha for the attack roll, otherwise it is one and the same, with a limitation and how much can be thrown, so rapid shot would not work here.
But in answer to your question yes it would have a magic bonus to hit
2: yes see above
3: as long as you choose to fail the will save for objects on your person you can do so, just like with telekinesis.
4: it is a move action to pick something up and a free action to simply drop it
5: technically yes, remember we are treating this as throwing daggers at the enemy in which your CHA replaces dex for the attack roll, and you do not gain str to damage. in short you are making a normal ranged attack using cha or int. treat it as such for simplicity of the rules.
Regarding the quiver, that was something I'd thought of. I wonder if just pointing your quiver in the general direction of the enemy would work though and thought that having the arrows points up might help. Anyhow, it seems like the spell must enable some amount of control over the flight of the objects since you can apparently aim them. If you take the "directly away from you" wording too literally I'm afraid that anything sitting on the floor some distance away from you might just shoot into the floor. At a minimum it seems like you'd have trouble with high or low shots unless you were using the spell in a completely flat and level area and maybe the items to be hurled were sitting on pedestals.
Is it agreed that a familiar (or anyone else) could dump a quiver or other container as a move action? Maybe it would be a little more stylish to have an Unseen Servant carry the ammo or at least aim the quiver. Of course that would bring up the question of what sort of action it takes to direct the Unseen Servant.
Do folks feel that Flame Arrow wouldn't work even if you were hurling something like sling stones? Flame Arrow says, "Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits." It seems like the target is being hit by the ammunition. I'm not sure if it should work, but I'm also not sure WHY it shouldn't work.
For some reason I agree that +3 arrows might not add to the attack roll (since they're not being used as arrows I guess). The idea of them not adding to the damage roll seems odd to me though. What if I had a pair of +1 shocking chakram and hurled them with Sonic Thrust (possibly along with other stuff). When you get hit by a +1 shocking chakram is the +1 and the +1d6 from shocking part of the "standard" damage, or is it some other sort of damage that requires a "normal attack" instead of a "spell attack" (not that I think such terms actually exist in the rules)
The best answer might be, "If you do this your DM is going to kill you", but I'd like to figure out what I "could" do before deciding if I "should" do it.
Consider This: However You Finally Decide To Run The Spell, You Will Likely Face It Aimed At You At Some Point In Your Character's Career. Careful What You Wish For... ;)
I'm not sure why the DM would bother sending in a quartet of 10th level Bards with Sonic Thrust to kill my PC when four 11th level Wizards with Scorching Ray could probably kill him even faster. Four maximized scorching ray spells is 288 damage, so even if they only hit about 50% of the time my PC will be pretty dead. Since I've invested pretty heavily in AC the Bards might miss a lot more often.
Q#1 - Would hurling magic weapons provide a bonus to the attack rolls?
I can't see why this wouldn't apply. You're making an attack roll with a magical weapon, the fact that it deals damage as a dagger of it's size is irrelevant. If you were throwing something like ioun stones, there would be no bonus on attack because it isn't enhanced as a magical weapon.
Tell me, if you throw a +1 sword at someone, whether or not it's designed to be thrown, do you gain the +1 to hit from the magical weapon? (Hint, the answer is yes).
Q#2 - Would hurling magic weapons provide a bonus to the damage rolls?
See above, the bonus damage from the enhancement would apply as the arrow 'bites deeper' from the magic.
Q#3 - Can you hurl objects which are carried on your person such as arrows from a quiver (possibly stored points up), or do the objects need to be unattended?
I think only a mean GM would do something bad about this. If nothing else, you can simply have an unseen servant lay them out in a row. This is only an issue if the GM is being spiteful.
Q#4 - Pursuant to question 3, what sort of action would it be for a monkey familiar to dump a quiver of arrows or bag of rocks?
Depends on how you want it done. If it's just dumping them all out on the ground, it's a free action I would say. If it's dumping them out in a fairly neat pile (or in a row), I'd require a move action (to keep them in the square) and a standard to get them in a roughly new pile/row.
Q#5 - Could Flame Arrow add +1d6 fire damage to each attack? (assuming the attacks were made with the enchanted arrows, stones, shurikens, etc)
Yes, because Flame Arrow simply applies to ammunition and deals damage 'on a hit'. Technically, one could cast flame arrow on a bucket of sling stones and then just dump them on people, because they take the damage if they are hit by them, properly fired or not.
With Telekinesis a certain degree of control is implied. Sonic Thrust adds some language about the objects moving directly away from you. Clearly Sonic Thrust can’t be used to pick up something behind the enemy and bash him with it. Clearly it can’t be used to send objects around corners to attack people (though the violent thrust version of Telekinesis probably can’t either). Other restrictions based on the “it flies in a straight line away from you” wording are possible but seem less clear to me. On the other hand, I think a lot of the same questions I’m asking here would apply to the violent thrust version of Telekinesis. Speaking of questions, I've got a couple of new ones though Question #5 might kind of obviate Questions #1 and #2.
Q#5 - Would a +3 arrow used as an improvised melee weapon for 1d4 damage get +3 to hit and damage? (If so then I’d think that could work with Sonic Thrust and Telekinesis too. If not then I guess the same rules would apply)
Q#6 - Hard, dense objects hurled with Sonic Thrust do 1d6 damage per 25lbs. Does this mean that a 10lb statuette would do 1d6 damage, 1 damage, or no damage? (I’d probably say 1d6, but it seems unclear)
@Tels - I’m not sure if the monkey would really need to put the arrows in a neat little row. I mean, at least in theory you can hurl weapon which are just sitting around and they’ll do weapon damage instead of damage for a hard object of their weight. If you can ensure that sword and axes hit with their blades I’d think that arrows should be able to hit with their points. Thinking about a sword or axe hitting with the hilt/haft or flat of the blade prompted Question 6 though. The spell description includes no provision for this, so it seems to me that you must have at least enough control to ensure that the weapons are properly oriented. I guess if somebody wanted to make a big point of it then a sling bullet can’t really “hit wrong” and only does slightly lower damage.
@Archaeik - I kind of imagined a quiver on the belt near the hip, which is another common place for it. Either way, maybe the caster or the monkey just aims the quiver kind of like a bazooka. Maybe that's a little cheesy. Is it more or less cheesy than carrying a bag full of sling stones to dump on the ground though? That brings back bad memories of combining a "bag of rats" with the old 3.5 Cleave, a trick I always felt was completely ridiculous and just Internet silliness (I certainly never saw it attempted in an actual game)
Maybe one of the problems with Sonic Thrust and Telekinesis is whether or not is "OK" to carry around objects to hurl with the spells. It seems like this might not be completely unexpected since arrows and bolts are specifically mentioned in the spell descriptions. On the other hand, some folks will undoubtedly feel that the spells are exclusively for throwing around random junk and props which happen to be laying around the dungeon and any "planned" use would be offensive (of course BBEGs are wise enough to keep all their possessions on their person and live in rooms with no furniture except pillows)
@Tels - I’m not sure if the monkey would really need to put the arrows in a neat little row. I mean, at least in theory you can hurl weapon which are just sitting around and they’ll do weapon damage instead of damage for a hard object of their weight. If you can ensure that sword and axes hit with their blades I’d think that arrows should be able to hit with their points. Thinking about a sword or axe hitting with the hilt/haft or flat of the blade prompted Question 6 though. The spell description includes no provision for this, so it seems to me that you must have at least enough control to ensure that the weapons are properly oriented. I guess if somebody wanted to make a big point of it then a sling bullet can’t really “hit wrong” and only does slightly lower damage.
I just mentioned a row in case a GM was being overly picky. One could take a quiver of arrows and just tip it over and the arrows will come out in a fairly neat pile, then you could rub your hand over them (separating them a bit) and you'll get a roughly 'neat' row of arrows.
However, it might be cool for an NPC to have pre-set rows of arrows around him to use for Sonic Thrust as if it were his signature spell. Or maybe a bandolier of arrows specially designed to do this.
So, Quiver of arrows, + Abundant Ammunition + Greater Magic Weapon + Flame Arrow?
Tell me, if you throw a +1 sword at someone, whether or not it's designed to be thrown, do you gain the +1 to hit from the magical weapon? (Hint, the answer is yes).
Can you tell me why you think the answer to this is yes?
In the core rule book under magic weapons it states:
" Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks."
Since this specifically calls out melee weapons only getting their bonus on ranged attacks if they are listed to be used that way, I would think if Fighter were to throw his +3 sword, he would not get any of the benefits. If this has been clarified or errata is somewhere.
I'm not sure why the DM would bother sending in a quartet of 10th level Bards with Sonic Thrust to kill my PC when four 11th level Wizards with Scorching Ray could probably kill him even faster. Four maximized scorching ray spells is 288 damage, so even if they only hit about 50% of the time my PC will be pretty dead. Since I've invested pretty heavily in AC the Bards might miss a lot more often.
First, a response, then a clarification. (oh, sweet keyboard, how I've missed thee!)
Wand of Sonic Thrust. Kobold warren designed with many, many, MANY loose objects laying around. Lots of peek holes, spy slots, side tunnels a small creature could squeeze through, etc. I think you get the drift, and that's just the first thing that popped into my head. Doesn't have to be a posse of Bards gunning for you for it to be deadly... ;)
Now to clarify. When I said no with the "straight away from you" part, I didn't mean it that literally. I meant as I read the spell, the items must be between you and the target, so if they were in a quiver on your back, or even on your hip, that wouldn't fit the bill. After all, the sound is emanating from you, as I read it, so the items must be between you and the target to be affected by the burst of sound.
Also, the monkey familiar thing. If you dumped the quiver, being the person actually carrying it, that might be a free action, although considering the precise way you want to dump it I'd go move myself. But if the familiar is going to do it for you, I'm sticking with standard action. It would have to take it from where you're carrying it, take it to where it needs to be dumped (keep in mind the "between you and the target" part from above, plus its tiny, so no 5' reach) and dump it. Standard, at least. Otherwise, this combo could be just OP. Free (or move) for familiar to dump, standard to use wand to cast Flame Arrow, standard for you to cast Sonic Thrust to send 10-15 flaming arrows at a target 800' to 1000' away? All on round one, with a move and two free (or free and two move) actions left over? Come to think of it, you are your own archer squad if your kingdom ever goes to war...
BTW, anyone else find the range on this spell odd? I see no mention of range penalties, so you could snipe someone you could barely see with this spell with no penalty to hit. Seriously?
I'm not sure why the DM would bother sending in a quartet of 10th level Bards with Sonic Thrust to kill my PC when four 11th level Wizards with Scorching Ray could probably kill him even faster. Four maximized scorching ray spells is 288 damage, so even if they only hit about 50% of the time my PC will be pretty dead. Since I've invested pretty heavily in AC the Bards might miss a lot more often.First, a response, then a clarification. (oh, sweet keyboard, how I've missed thee!)
Wand of Sonic Thrust. Kobold warren designed with many, many, MANY loose objects laying around. Lots of peek holes, spy slots, side tunnels a small creature could squeeze through, etc. I think you get the drift, and that's just the first thing that popped into my head. Doesn't have to be a posse of Bards gunning for you for it to be deadly... ;)
Now to clarify. When I said no with the "straight away from you" part, I didn't mean it that literally. I meant as I read the spell, the items must be between you and the target, so if they were in a quiver on your back, or even on your hip, that wouldn't fit the bill. After all, the sound is emanating from you, as I read it, so the items must be between you and the target to be affected by the burst of sound.
Also, the monkey familiar thing. If you dumped the quiver, being the person actually carrying it, that might be a free action, although considering the precise way you want to dump it I'd go move myself. But if the familiar is going to do it for you, I'm sticking with standard action. It would have to take it from where you're carrying it, take it to where it needs to be dumped (keep in mind the "between you and the target" part from above, plus its tiny, so no 5' reach) and dump it. Standard, at least. Otherwise, this combo could be just OP. Free (or move) for familiar to dump, standard to use wand to cast Flame Arrow, standard for you to cast Sonic Thrust to send 10-15 flaming arrows at a target 800' to 1000' away? All...
Nearly anything can become really powerful in the hands of Kobolds. Even something like a bag of marbles.
There's nothing really stopping the monkey from carrying around the quiver in the first place. Especially if they plan this out ahead of time. Also, as it stands, the Monkey could 5-ft. step with the quiver (out of the Bard's square), dump the quiver, and cast Flame Arrow.
As for the range? No, not more odd than being able to launch a bead sized ball of fire 500+ feet away into a group of enemies detonating a precision explosion. Sonic Thrust is aimed by the mind, at least, while Fireball is aimed by a hand (you point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst).
Tell me, if you throw a +1 sword at someone, whether or not it's designed to be thrown, do you gain the +1 to hit from the magical weapon? (Hint, the answer is yes).Can you tell me why you think the answer to this is yes?
In the core rule book under magic weapons it states:
" Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks."Since this specifically calls out melee weapons only getting their bonus on ranged attacks if they are listed to be used that way, I would think if Fighter were to throw his +3 sword, he would not get any of the benefits. If this has been clarified or errata is somewhere.
Yes, I do think it should. Enhancing a sword makes the sword sharper and deal more damage. Throwing it doesn't suddenly turn the magic of the sword off.
If we don't apply common sense to the rules then we get situations like a summoned creature can't claw someone protected by Protection from Alignment spells, but they can kick or punch them instead. Why? Because Protection shields the warded creature from natural attacks by summoned creatures, but unarmed strikes are specifically exempted from being considered natural attacks in every instance in Pathfinder.
You just seemed so sure about it in your post I thought you might have a rules quote or something to back it up RAW
I agree with your premise to use common sense, but in this particular example I wouldn't think the logic is quite as black and white as you try to make it seem
A +1 sword is enchanted to be sharper and do more damage when used for it's intended purpose, when used for something else, that bonus may be less, or not at all. Even if a sword is enchanted to be more accurate, if you use the sword improperly how would you expect to get any of the magical benefit?
The damage, I could go either way on from a common sense or RAI perspective, but each person's opinion on this might vary and when there is relevant rules text that (I think) makes sense, I don't think it should be ignored.
As for your example, I would reference the text of the spell you left out, specifically "the spell prevents bodily contact by evil summoned creatures" The spell mentions first that the creature cannot touch the protected individual, and than further stipulates that natural weapon attacks that touch the creature fail. It does not prevent breath/gaze or other natural attacks that do not require touch (although it does buff AC/Resistance to these)
Our party has various ways of carrying 10-15 items and positioning them. Besides the monkey there's a faerie dragon, and the dragon's master could cast Floating Disk if needed. I'd rather figure out a way to use the spell with less fuss mostly for stylistic reasons. If my PC snaps his fingers and arrows fly out and kill the bad guy that's kind of cool.
If he or his familiar need to fiddle with objects to aim or dump a quiver that's somewhat less cool. If we have to haul around some sort of floating "arrow rack" that's not cool at all (at least in my mind), and then the arrows functionally might as well be ballista bolts, which isn't the sort of effect I'm looking for. I figure that if arrows are right in the spell description that implies to me that using them with the spell is appropriate and expected. I wouldn't necessarily count on that with ballista bolts.
@Jayder22 - Since the sword does the damage of a sword rather than just a random object I assume it is hitting with the blade. I’d further assume that hits with the blade of a sword should benefit from any enchantment on the sword. I think the rules you quoted are just pointing out that something like a spear or dagger doesn’t have to be enchanted twice, once for melee and once for ranged.
I’m not sure if the bonus to attack rolls would apply with a sword, but I’m not concerned with hurling swords. I’d prefer arrows since my PC worships Erastil and arrows seem like they might be a handy form of ammunition to haul around. I wonder if that’s why they’re specifically mentioned in the spell. EIther way, arrows are typically ranged weapons. For the purposes of the spell they do damage as daggers, but those are ranged weapons too.
@Joex - I don’t see anything in the spell which says the sound is emanating from you. In fact, that would be problematic if you wanted to hurl objects which were not adjacent to you without affecting other objects in between. The spell doesn’t address whether or not that’s possible, but it seems like it should be given that you can select specific objects.