Simple Fighter and Rogue fix


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Marthkus wrote:

K cool stuff.

Looks like a strength rogue that just does an ass-ton more damage.

I can work on a Dex build. I started one but switched to this. It looks a bit like the one your friend made.


Scavion wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

K cool stuff.

Looks like a strength rogue that just does an ass-ton more damage.

I can work on a Dex build. I started one but switched to this. It looks a bit like the one your friend made.

More builds the merrier. I'd like to see what this class looks like in a variety of forms.


How do you learn cornugon smash at level 1? I thought it had intimidate 6 ranks as prerequisite.


Umbranus wrote:
How do you learn cornugon smash at level 1? I thought it had intimidate 6 ranks as prerequisite.

My bad. Was looking at the SRD tree and saw it had no prerequisites listed. Upon clicking the feat itself it shows it. Switch places with Intimidating Prowess then.


Marthkus wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
I did say initially that I was excluding the casters from the equation for just that reason. As for monks being "solid" you already know our opinions on that are decidedly different.

I also threw them under the same bus as the rogue.

In future games that I run the monk gets their progressive monks armor bonus (not changing the effect of wis) to AC, CMD, CMB, attack rolls, and damage rolls.

Also fighters and rogues are not PC classes. If you want to play one you have to play the "adventurer" class which is just fighter and rogue gestalt-ed together.

I've had a sleight change in opinion after my experience in a compaign that I'm playing (5 man party, was playing a rogue, was offered a full respect via plot that made me really analyze which class could actually offer something to our group of Wizard, Druid, Synthesist, Inquisitor).

EDIT: Also alchemist is not a spell caster :P

Fair enough. In your game I can see the monk performing rather better, just as he does in my game with my changes.


Adventurer:
Human Adventurer || 17 15 14 14 8 8 || Traits: Armor Expert(reduce armor check penalty by 1), Deathtouch(+2 vs mind affecting)
1 | Trapfinding
Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
Sneak Attack +1d6
2 |Bravery +1, Evasion
Power Attack
Trap Spotter
3 |Armor training,trap sense +1
Cleave
Sneak Attack +2d6
4 | Uncanny dodge
Great Cleave
Combat Trick(Blind-Fight)
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy)
Skill Focus(UMD)
Sneak Attack +3d6
6 |Bravery +2, trap sense +2
Lunge
Bleeding Attack
7 |Armor training
Iron Will
Sneak Attack +4d6
8 | Improved Uncanny dodge
Quick Draw
Slow Reactions
9 |Weapon training(Bows), trap sense +3
Point-Blank Shot
Sneak Attack +5d6
10|Bravery +3, advance talents
Rapid Shot
Skill Mastery
11|Armor training
Deadly Aim
Sneak Attack +6d6
12| Trap sense +4
Far Shot
Opportunist
13|Weapon training(Spears)
Leadership
Sneak Attack +7d6
14|Bravery +4,
Mounted Combat
Crippling Strike
15|Armor training,trap sense+5
Mounted Archery
Sneak Attack +8d6
16|
Ride-By Attack
Feat(Manyshot)
17|Weapon training(Close)
Spirited Charge
Sneak Attack +9d6
18|Bravery +5, trap sense+6
Trample
Improved Evasion
19|Armor mastery
Improved Iron Will
Sneak Attack +10d6
20|weapon mastery(GS), Master Strike
Improved Critical(GS)
Weapon Training(GS)

Mythic Feats: Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, Toughness, Deadly Aim
Mythic Path Abilities: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Crusader, Shatter Spells, Farwalker


Marthkus wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Interesting although if you're going to take skill focus as a human I really think you're better off doing it as your level 1 feat with the alternate that gives you like 3 feats for the cost of one. Swap it for combat reflexes at one and move combat reflexes into blind fighting's spot as blind fighting probably won't be crucial at those levels.

Personally I'd also take iron will at 5 rather than 7 since that's when you'll be eating 3rd level spells from wizards and clerics but that's more of a toss up.


gnomersy wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Interesting although if you're going to take skill focus as a human I really think you're better off doing it as your level 1 feat with the alternate that gives you like 3 feats for the cost of one. Swap it for combat reflexes at one and move combat reflexes into blind fighting's spot as blind fighting probably won't be crucial at those levels.

Personally I'd also take iron will at 5 rather than 7 since that's when you'll be eating 3rd level spells from wizards and clerics but that's more of a toss up.

That's just one of my favorite fighter builds with Rogue smashed into it.


I think this would be a good change in general, it makes the fighter more interesting and the rogue tougher. But, I think the full fighter bonus feat progression plus the full rogue sneak attack and talents is too much.

My off the cuff thought are that gestalt minus rogue sneak attack and talents, but with the ability to take +sneak attack or a rogue talent in place of fighter bonus feats, would be pretty balanced. You'd have a skillful, but nonmagical class that was tough and versatile.

Ken


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kenmckinney wrote:

I think this would be a good change in general, it makes the fighter more interesting and the rogue tougher. But, I think the full fighter bonus feat progression plus the full rogue sneak attack and talents is too much.

My off the cuff thought are that gestalt minus rogue sneak attack and talents, but with the ability to take +sneak attack or a rogue talent in place of fighter bonus feats, would be pretty balanced. You'd have a skillful, but nonmagical class that was tough and versatile.

Actually the adventure is still pretty underpowered. Even with full sneak attack progression, talents, and bonus feats.

Don't believe me? Build an adventurer then build a vivisectionist alchemist, or a bard, or a barbarian and compare them. The barbar is still a better martial, the bard is still a better skill monkey, and the vivisectionist can match the adventurer in all aspects.


I have to agree with Marthkus. The Adventurer is STILL less powerful than those classes. There are two methods of which we can fix this.

Make it overpoweringly strong like the Barbarian.
Make it versatile and adaptable like the Bard/Inquisitor/Alchemist. My vote goes to the second.

My Vivisectionist Mindchemist still edges out the Adventurer.

My mind reels for answers. Spellcasting is just such a strong perk. Even the Alchemist pseudo-casting is amazing.

I'm cooking up a really odd build now.


I'm OK with the fix still being less powerful. There is just no reason to nerf the class more though.


Marthkus wrote:
I'm OK with the fix still being less powerful. There is just no reason to nerf the class more though.

I am as well, but I want it to definitely be on par with the others.


There are some pretty sick DPR glass cannon builds if you start applying archetypes like mobile fighter and scout.

The adventurer should be on par with a ranger at least and no one really complains about them.


Marthkus wrote:

There are some pretty sick DPR glass cannon builds if you start applying archetypes like mobile fighter and scout.

The adventurer should be on par with a ranger at least and no one really complains about them.

Definitely. So archetypes are on the table? I'll take a look at a few.


Scavion wrote:
Marthkus wrote:

There are some pretty sick DPR glass cannon builds if you start applying archetypes like mobile fighter and scout.

The adventurer should be on par with a ranger at least and no one really complains about them.

Definitely. So archetypes are on the table? I'll take a look at a few.

Of course, archetypes replace class features. There is nothing preventing an adventurer from using them. Just like how a ninja can use some rogue archetypes.


Okay. I would actually play the hell out of this class.

Viking Scout Adventurer!:

Heinrich Dalentarth

Level 10 Half-Elf Adventurer(Scout, Thug, Viking (20 Point buy)
Traits: Deathtouched, Trap Finder

Str:18(22)(+2 Race, +2 Ability increase)
Dex:14
Con:14
Int:13
Wis:12
Cha:10

Feats/Talents:
1: Power Attack, Initmidating Prowess
Half-Elf: EWP(Bastard Sword)
2: Weapon Training(Bastard Sword), Dazzling Display
3: Iron Will
4: Minor Magic(Prestidigitation), Weapon Specialization(Bastard Sword)
5: Arcane Strike
6: Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
7: Extra Rage Power(Superstition)
8: Combat Trick(Improved Critical), Rage Power(Witch Hunter)
9: Extra Rage Power(Spell Sunder)
10: Shatter Defenses, Feat(Greater Weapon Focus)

Scout Features
Thug Features
Viking Features

Gear:
+1 Furious Bastard Sword
+2 Heavy Mithril Shield
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Belt of Strength +4
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves

Skills(90 points):
Perception +21
Stealth +15
Disable Device +21
Intimidate +21
(50 points remaining)

DEFENSES
HP: 89
AC: 30(25 while raging)
Fort:+12 Ref:+12 Will:+7(+2 vs Mind Affecting)
Rage Saves
Fort: +16 Ref:+16 Will:+13(+2 vs Mind Affecting)

OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus Calculation: 10(BAB)+6(Str)+2(Rage)+2(Wpn Focus)+3(Wpn. Enhance)+3(Reckless Abandon)=+26
Attack Bonus with Power Attack: +23/+18
Damage: 1d10+23 17-20x2 plus 5d6 if Sneak Attack applies +3 if Witch Hunter applies. Shatter Defenses makes this likely.


Buddy made another build:
human adventurer

str 17
dex 15
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 8

race:
+1 skill point, +1 bonus feat

traits:
deathtouched: +2 will saves vs. mind-effecting
bruising intellect: int mod to intimidate

skills: acrobatics, intimidate, disable device, linguistics, perception, sense motive, stealth, UMD, survival

saves: +4 fort, +4 reflex, -1 will

initiative +2

class features
1 trapfinding, SA 1d6
2 evasion, bravery
3 trap sense +1, armor training 1, SA 2d6
4 uncanny dodge
5 weapon training 1 SA 3d6
6 trap sense +2
7 armor training 2 SA 4d6
8 improved uncanny dodge
9 weapon training 2, trap sense +3 SA 5d6
11 armor training 3 SA 6d6
12 trap sense +4
13 weapon training 3 SA 7d6
15 armor training 4, trap sense +5 SA 8d6
17 weapon training 4 SA 9d6
18 trap sense +6
19 armor mastery SA 10d6
20 weapon mastery, master strike

feats:
1 power attack
1 point blank shot
1 precise shot
2 quick draw
3 weapon focus
4 enforcer
5 dazzling display
6 shatter defenses
7 deadly aim
8 sap adept
9 sap master
10 skill focus (stealth)
11 dazing assault
12 hellcat stealth
13 critical focus
14 critical versatility
15 dastardly finish
16 sneaking precision
17 rapid shot
18 manyshot
19 improved initiative
20 arcane strike

rogue talents:
2 trap spotter
4 minor magic
6 fast stealth
8 major magic
10 skill mastery
12 crippling strike
14 dispelling attack
16 familiar
18 improved evasion
20 hard to fool


Ooo I like that one too.


Scavion wrote:

Okay. I would actually play the hell out of this class.

** spoiler omitted **

Bwuhaha I forgot about viking. Can they use totems or is that Barbar only for being an archetype for barbars?


Marthkus wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Okay. I would actually play the hell out of this class.

** spoiler omitted **

Bwuhaha I forgot about viking. Can they use totems or is that Barbar only for being an archetype for barbars?

Yep they can use totems. Thats what I was going to shoot for in the next levels after picking up Deadly Stroke at 11th. You do have to be 3 levels higher for the prereqs though.


Actually no. The viking does not have barbar levels so she will never qualify for pounce. Also superstition increases with barbar levels not rage abilities, so it remains a +2 and never gets higher.

EDIT: Her effective barbar level only determines the strength of rage. It doesn't give them an actual barbar level for rage powers though :/


Marthkus wrote:
Actually no. The viking does not have barbar levels so he will never qualify for pounce. Also superstition increases with barbar levels not rage abilities, so it remains a +2 and never gets higher.

Can I get a link? I was looking at general consensus on past threads on the boards when I was building.


Scavion wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Actually no. The viking does not have barbar levels so he will never qualify for pounce. Also superstition increases with barbar levels not rage abilities, so it remains a +2 and never gets higher.
Can I get a link? I was looking at general consensus on past threads on the boards when I was building.

Eh that's probably something to ask James Jacobs about the RAI. For the RAW though that comma is pretty important.


Marthkus wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Actually no. The viking does not have barbar levels so he will never qualify for pounce. Also superstition increases with barbar levels not rage abilities, so it remains a +2 and never gets higher.
Can I get a link? I was looking at general consensus on past threads on the boards when I was building.
Eh that's probably something to ask James Jacobs about the RAI. For the RAW though that comma is pretty important.
Viking wrote:
At 4th level, A Viking gains the rage ability as the barbarian class feature, but her barbarian level is considered to be her fighter level –3.

The second part could be interpreted as considering his Barbarian level to be -3 his Fighter for everything.

I'll probably go ask.


Marthkus wrote:
Actually the adventure is still pretty underpowered. Even with full sneak attack progression, talents, and bonus feats.

Perhaps that's because it's unfocussed, or rather it has two almost mutually exclusive foci: Stealth and skills on one side, warrior-tank on the other. You still only end up so good at one or the other, and it's hard to do both at the same time.

What you need is a mechanic that enhances both aspects of the adventurer, and tone down the large number of disparate abilities - like the qingong monk does with the various core monk powers. Then the player can shape the character's abilities at whatever focus they choose.


Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Actually the adventure is still pretty underpowered. Even with full sneak attack progression, talents, and bonus feats.

Perhaps that's because it's unfocussed, or rather it has two almost mutually exclusive foci: Stealth and skills on one side, warrior-tank on the other. You still only end up so good at one or the other, and it's hard to do both at the same time.

What you need is a mechanic that enhances both aspects of the adventurer, and tone down the large number of disparate abilities - like the qingong monk does with the various core monk powers. Then the player can shape the character's abilities at whatever focus they choose.

Too much homebrew for me. When I make house rules, they need to be simple and not add new elements into the game.


Marthkus wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Actually the adventure is still pretty underpowered. Even with full sneak attack progression, talents, and bonus feats.

Perhaps that's because it's unfocussed, or rather it has two almost mutually exclusive foci: Stealth and skills on one side, warrior-tank on the other. You still only end up so good at one or the other, and it's hard to do both at the same time.

What you need is a mechanic that enhances both aspects of the adventurer, and tone down the large number of disparate abilities - like the qingong monk does with the various core monk powers. Then the player can shape the character's abilities at whatever focus they choose.

Too much homebrew for me. When I make house rules, they need to be simple and not add new elements into the game.

Then you don't have a fix, in this case, just a bodge that doesn't work just as you have noted. The only other solution is to separate them again and resolve the issues of each separately.

Adjusting the fighter's saves and skills is easy, as is adjusting the rogue's talents to one-a-level.


He believes it is Viking Level-3 for picking higher level Rage Powers.

I think it is a bit of poetic justice to steal some features from others after having been stolen from for so long.

With that, stealing Superstition and Spell Sunder, I believe the Adventurer has some epic durability and versatility.


Scavion wrote:

He believes it is Viking Level-3 for picking higher level Rage Powers.

I think it is a bit of poetic justice to steal some features from others after having been stolen from for so long.

With that, stealing Superstition and Spell Sunder, I believe the Adventurer has some epic durability and versatility.

Haha. Fair enough. Although viking is now the best fighter archetype.

Shadow Lodge

talking about making a improvement to a mundane class, has anyone watched legend of the seeker? they had a person who was so mundane magic couldnt effect them.

i would like to see a fighter archetype that gained defenses and bonuses to damage spell users. nothing with rounds per day or once per fight bs book keeping, but more like you deal and extra 1d6 damage against magic users and a +1 to save at levels 3,6,9,12,15,18

to represent the pure mundane nature of classes without supernatural class features. the rogue wouldn be able to take a ki pool or major magic, but would gain SR and a + to saves/attack.

i mean its really just the fighter, rogue (kinda), and gunslinger that are pure mundane, so let that unnatural lack of magic be a class feature. let it make them so mundane that they are the true bane of spell casters.


Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Actually the adventure is still pretty underpowered. Even with full sneak attack progression, talents, and bonus feats.

Perhaps that's because it's unfocussed, or rather it has two almost mutually exclusive foci: Stealth and skills on one side, warrior-tank on the other. You still only end up so good at one or the other, and it's hard to do both at the same time.

What you need is a mechanic that enhances both aspects of the adventurer, and tone down the large number of disparate abilities - like the qingong monk does with the various core monk powers. Then the player can shape the character's abilities at whatever focus they choose.

Too much homebrew for me. When I make house rules, they need to be simple and not add new elements into the game.

Then you don't have a fix, in this case, just a bodge that doesn't work just as you have noted. The only other solution is to separate them again and resolve the issues of each separately.

Adjusting the fighter's saves and skills is easy, as is adjusting the rogue's talents to one-a-level.

It's enough of a fix for me.

You can argue that the adventurer is actually useful. The ideal of pure skillmonkey or pure feat monkey is just not a PC class without a huge overhaul to the whole system. The adventurer is a well rounded character that is buried in a s%$% load of s%&+ty abilities that takes a skilled player to really make it work.

IMHO if you can't make the adventurer work then you probably shouldn't be playing a rogue or a fighter anyways no matter how much they get buffed.


AM HATE MAGIC:

DWARF MAGIC HATER

Level 10 Dwarf Adventurer(Scout, Thug, Viking (20 Point buy)
Traits: Deathtouched, Glory of Old

Str:18(22)(+2 Ability Increase)
Dex:14
Con:16
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:8

Feats/Talents:
1: Power Attack, Steel Soul
2: Weapon Training(Bastard Sword), Dazzling Display
3: Iron Will
4: Minor Magic(Prestidigitation), Missile Shield
5: Arcane Strike
6: Rage Power: Reckless Abandon, Major Magic(Vanish)
7: Extra Rage Power(Superstition)
8: Combat Trick(Disruptive), Rage Power(Witch Hunter)
9: Extra Rage Power(Spell Sunder)
10: Spellbreaker, Dispelling Attack
Next level he takes Ray Shield.

Scout Features
Thug Features
Viking Features

Gear:
+1 Furious Battleaxe
+2 Heavy Mithril Shield
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Belt of Strength +4
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves

Skills(90 points):
Perception +19
Stealth +15
Disable Device +21
(60 points remaining)

DEFENSES
HP: 99
AC: 30(25 while raging)
Fort:+13 Ref:+12 Will:+9(+2 vs Mind Affecting)
Rage Saves
Fort: +16 Ref:+16 Will:+15(+2 vs Mind Affecting)
Rage Saves Vs Spells/Spell-like abilities
Fort: +21 Ref:+21 Will:+20
BWAHAHAAHAHA. WHERE ARE YOUR SPELLS NOW WEAKLINGS?!

OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus Calculation: 10(BAB)+6(Str)+2(Rage)+3(Wpn. Enhance)+3(Reckless Abandon)=+24
Attack Bonus with Power Attack: +21/+16
Damage: 1d10+17 X3 plus 5d6 if Sneak Attack applies +3 if Witch Hunter applies.

Oh I forgot to add the iron will bonus on all my old builds.


With the ability to take archetypes from both, this is probably better than the ranger in combat, and has enough skill points and some utility abilities to be better out of combat as well. Possibly. Not sure how much ranger spells tilt the scales.

Ranger still has the advantage of the animal (but then again, you have enough feats for getting one if you must) and no pre-req feats but eh...


LoneKnave wrote:

With the ability to take archetypes from both, this is probably better than the ranger in combat, and has enough skill points and some utility abilities to be better out of combat as well. Possibly. Not sure how much ranger spells tilt the scales.

Ranger still has the advantage of the animal (but then again, you have enough feats for getting one if you must) and no pre-req feats but eh...

The feat thing is slightly overrated. The fact is that many combat styles are incredibly feat intensive, especially any that give you a reliable means of acquiring sneak attack.

Skill points yes. Utility abilities? Hardly. That is really hard to get over a class with spells. Consider the Spirit Ranger archetype. He loses the Animal Companion and instead gets a spontaneous spell of any ranger level he's acquired.

Instant Enemy further keeps the scales favorable to the Ranger. The Adventurer is nicely beside it though.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

And don't forget magic. The Ranger can make magic items with little to no problem, and use many important wands and the like. Not so our doughty adventurer.

==Aelryinth


Eh, Instant enemy you have to use on every single target you fight (that doesn't happen to be in your original group) to get an average of 1 point higher bonus than the fighter's weapon training for his main weapon (and you have Duelist gloves to boost that further). And then there's sneak attack on top of that.

Out of combat magic beats no magic, but at least he does have UMD and the skill points to max it. Also, I can see an intimidator build working out pretty nicely with some archetype combinations. There is also some nice synergy with the skill check penalties being lowered by Armor Training.


Aelryinth wrote:

And don't forget magic. The Ranger can make magic items with little to no problem, and use many important wands and the like. Not so our doughty adventurer.

==Aelryinth

Technically Minor Magic gives us a Caster Level so we *could* make magic items. UMD gets us wand use if we really care for it.

LoneKnave wrote:

Eh, Instant enemy you have to use on every single target you fight (that doesn't happen to be in your original group) to get an average of 1 point higher bonus than the fighter's weapon training for his main weapon (and you have Duelist gloves to boost that further). And then there's sneak attack on top of that.

Favored Enemy is a +10 boost as opposed to the Fighter's +5 with a specific weapon group.

Favored Enemy also scales better/faster. +4 at 5th level as opposed to +1.


Feeling really dumb now, I thought it was +1/+1 per Favored Enemy not +2/+2.


LoneKnave wrote:
Feeling really dumb now, I thought it was +1/+1 per Favored Enemy not +2/+2.

We all make mistakes. The Ranger's "thing" used to be being awesome fighting his Favored Enemies when they came up. Instant Enemy made that time come up all the time.


Still, Archer Fighter/Sniper Rogue could make some really nice things happen damage-wise; Archer fighter can feint from a distance, which means full attack with a bow with all attacks getting SA damage. That would measure up in damage at least, if not in accuracy. Assuming the target is not SA/Feint immune ofc.

Plus you get the perception bonus wgich is nothing to sneeze at if you also want to deal with traps.


Another build my friend made:
kitsune trickster scout dervish of dawn

str 16
dex 13
con 14
int 10
wis 8
cha 11

race:
kitsune magic: 3/day dancing lights
agile: +2 acrobatics
change shape

traits:
deathtouched: +2 will saves vs. mind-effecting
trapfinder

skills: acrobatics, disable device, linguistics, perception, stealth, UMD, sense motive

saves: +4 fort, +3 reflex, -1 will

initiative +1

class features
1 trapfinding, SA 1d6, kitsune's guile
2 evasion, bravery
3 kitsune's charm 1/day, burst of speed, SA 2d6
4 scout's charge
5 weapon training 1 SA 3d6
6 kitsune's charm 2/day
7 desert stride SA 4d6
8 skirmisher
9 weapon training 2, kitsune's charm 3/day SA 5d6
11 rapid attack SA 6d6
12 kitsune's charm 4/day
13 weapon training 3 SA 7d6
15 lightning strike, kitsune's charm 5/day SA 8d6
17 weapon training 4 SA 9d6
18 kitsune's charm 6/day
19 armor mastery SA 10d6
20 weapon mastery, master strike

feats:
1 power attack
1 improved overrun
1 improved bull rush
2 charge through
3 step up
4 arcane strike
5 rhino charge
6 swift kitsune shapechanger
7 iron will
8 critical focus
9 bull rush strike
10 vulpine pounce
11 dazing attack
12 blind-fight
13 improved blind fight
14 sneaking precision
15 blinding critical
16 stunning assault
17 dastardly finish
18 greater blind-fight
19 spiked destroyer
20 run

rogue talents:
2 trap spotter
4 slow reactions
6 fast stealth
8 offensive defense
10 skill mastery
12 crippling strike
14 dispelling attack
16 familiar
18 improved evasion
20 hard to fool


LoneKnave wrote:

Still, Archer Fighter/Sniper Rogue could make some really nice things happen damage-wise; Archer fighter can feint from a distance, which means full attack with a bow with all attacks getting SA damage. That would measure up in damage at least, if not in accuracy. Assuming the target is not SA/Feint immune ofc.

Plus you get the perception bonus wgich is nothing to sneeze at if you also want to deal with traps.

Oo. That is solid right there.


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Inspired by Marthkus, I have decided to make an Oriental version of his Adventurer, here's what it looks like up to level 10

"Shinobi"
Hit Die: d10

Level BAB FORT REF WILL
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Bonus Feat,Poison use, sneak attack +1d6

2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Bonus Feat, Bravery, Ki pool, ninja trick

3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Armor Training, No trace +1, sneak attack +2d6

4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus Feat, Ninja trick, uncanny dodge

5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Weapon Training, Sneak attack +3d6

6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Bonus Feat, Light steps, ninja trick, no trace +2

7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Armor Training, Sneak attack +4d6

8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Bonus Feat,Improved uncanny dodge, ninja trick

9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Weapon Training, No trace +3, sneak attack +5d6

10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Bonus Feat, Master tricks, ninja trick


Marthkus wrote:

It's enough of a fix for me.

You can argue that the adventurer is actually useful. The ideal of pure skillmonkey or pure feat monkey is just not a PC class without a huge overhaul to the whole system.

I disagree. The monk can be fixed without a complete overhaul, and so can the rogue and the fighter. Indeed, both the rogue and the fighter can fulfil the roles for which they were intended, unlike the monk. Their issues come from the fact that other classes can perform those roles and do more besides.

Marthkus wrote:

The adventurer is a well rounded character that is buried in a s&!+ load of s@&%ty abilities that takes a skilled player to really make it work.

IMHO if you can't make the adventurer work then you probably shouldn't be playing a rogue or a fighter anyways no matter how much they get buffed.

Trust me, I could make one work and work very well. The point I am making is that certain fighter concepts or rogue concepts simply do not make the most of this combination of classes. Armoured tank is a poor rogue, so your best bet is a the lightly-armoured option.

Myself, I'd go for a fighter (freehand fighter)/rogue (scout) and go for a dex/int build with an agile weapon. That would allow him full access to rogue abilities when they were called upon, and allow an effective combat option when it was needed. With scout Spring Attack is effective, and with fighter BAB and Weapon Training accuracy stops being an issue...

However, not everyone wants to play a swashbuckler, and in fact there is soon to be a swashbuckler class anyway.


Fighter is +4/+4 unless weapon master which is +5/+5 with duelling gloves boosting another +2/+2 with both weapon focus feats and both weapon specializations you can get +9/+11. And FE is only +10/10 against one group of favoured enemy if each time he gains an additional group he increases the initial or second choice.

I think the two classes mesh well. Armor training works best with a high DEX build and lowers ACP so thats an increase to some scout based skills. It gives rogues a better chance to hit and the feats to pursue a two weapon fighting build and a ranged option. Honestly I think the class lends itself better to a rogue role. You can now afford to have a bunch of mid range stats to be a skill monkey without being useless at combat, and you can afford to take utility feats and talents as well as combat ones.

The fighter role gets less out of the trade. A higher reflex save and evasion are good but SA, and trap related stuff don't really enhance the main functions.


The funny thing is that it wouldn't make that poor of a rogue even in armor; the reason armor is (mainly) bad for rogues is the armor check penalty, for which he gets Armor Training, and evasion, which the fighter can already tank failed reflex saves so he doesn't need evasion as such.


Dabbler wrote:
The point I am making is that certain fighter concepts or rogue concepts simply do not make the most of this combination of classes.

I don't really care that they don't make the most out of the option. Personally I consider both fighter and rogue NPC classes, therefore concepts that require one class or the other are NPC ideas. There is just no room for mundanes in PF.

Monks are easily fixed with a simple to-hit, damage, and CMB boost. They are still MAD, but they are also drowning in class features.

Fighters can't be fixed with more to-hit

More to-hit on a rogue will just make them a dex fighter anyways.

Might as well just gestalt both together.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Scavion wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

And don't forget magic. The Ranger can make magic items with little to no problem, and use many important wands and the like. Not so our doughty adventurer.

==Aelryinth

Technically Minor Magic gives us a Caster Level so we *could* make magic items. UMD gets us wand use if we really care for it.

LoneKnave wrote:

Eh, Instant enemy you have to use on every single target you fight (that doesn't happen to be in your original group) to get an average of 1 point higher bonus than the fighter's weapon training for his main weapon (and you have Duelist gloves to boost that further). And then there's sneak attack on top of that.

Favored Enemy is a +10 boost as opposed to the Fighter's +5 with a specific weapon group.

Favored Enemy also scales better/faster. +4 at 5th level as opposed to +1.

I'm aware of the UMD and Caster level. The problem is he has no spells on his spell list. So he can't use CLW wands at level 1, Barkskin wands, etc, without having to invest ranks in UMD.

So, if he wants to craft wondrous items, he has to invest in CWI, blow a talent on Minor Magic (exactly like spending a feat on Magical Artisan), AND spend ranks on UMD, in addition to spending points on Spellcraft, which is not a class skill.

The Ranger doesn't have to do any of that.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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LoneKnave wrote:
The funny thing is that it wouldn't make that poor of a rogue even in armor; the reason armor is (mainly) bad for rogues is the armor check penalty, for which he gets Armor Training, and evasion, which the fighter can already tank failed reflex saves so he doesn't need evasion as such.

If the fighter doesn't need Reflex, then rangers don't need it, either.

Yet, the Ranger has it, and has both healing magic and Res/Prot from energy to recover from and ward against the stuff needing evasion saves even if he fails them.

So, yes, the fighter needs Reflex saves. Anything which reduces the damage he takes is A Good Thing. Indeed, damage mitigation is ALL he has going for him, since he has no form of self-healing.

==Aelryinth

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