RAW say that under ideal conditions (off-hand is light weapon and you have TWF feat), your attacks are at -2, -2, main hand, off-hand. In order to attack with both weapons, you must use a full attack (full round action). Once you gain multiple attacks from multiple BABs, the rules also state that you can make each of these attacks at your full bonus (for that attack) with any weapon wielded -- that is to say, TWF not required and no penalty.
I understand that TWF does two things:
1. Reduces the penalty for using two weapons.
2. Grants ONE additional attack with the off-hand weapon.
My question is this - the rules for a full attack state that you can decide to use your iterative attacks granted from a full attack AFTER making the first attack. If you are wielding two weapons and do not have more than one BAB and have TWF feat, does your first attack still suffer from the -2 penalty (TWF, light weapon in off-hand) if you choose not to take the extra off-hand attack? And if you choose not to use it, does the -2 penalty for your primary attack retroactively unapply? At this point if it's a 2 point margin to hit or miss, the player could choose to not use his second (extra) attack and hit. This seems like the most logical conclusion as I interpret the rules.
And my second question, if you have multiple BABs (more than one iterative attack granted by attack bonuses), to which attack does the -2 penalty apply? The first one? All of them?
TWF penalty applies to ALL attacks.
So if you have +6/+1, and decide to TWF (with feat and light offhand) your attack becomes +4/+4/-1.
When TWF you also have to decide all or other :(. with a 2h weapon, you can take that +6, think about it, and then attack at +1 or move or whatever. If you're TWF, you have to decide at the start of the attack to TWF as +4/+4/-1, or NOT TWF -- +6 with a maybe +1.
Ordinarily, you can choose between a full attack and a standard action attack after you resolve the first attack. However, some things "lock you in" to your choice, so to speak.
Manyshot must be done with a full attack, so you cannot later change your mind. Similarly, TWF forces you to choose. If you plan on TWFing, you must declare it and you're stuck. You have to take the penalty because you won't know before you attack if you hit.
Now, I will let a player abort the TWF after the first attack if they want, but they're still taking the -2 penalty to hit if they initially thought they'd be TWFing. At that point you've suffered the penalty but gotten no benefit, so no harm no foul (on choosing to abort). You can neither retroactively apply nor revoke the penalty. You must choose prior to making any attacks in the round.
The penalty applies to all attacks during your turn. That means all iteratives, too. But it does not apply to attacks of opportunity.
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Just to be precise: twf doesn't grant an extra attack. It only lower penalties for twf. Anyone can twf, even without the feat.
Just to be precise: twf doesn't grant an extra attack. It only lower penalties for twf. Anyone can twf, even without the feat.
Yeah, sorry -- there was some ambiguity since TWF the feat's flavor text describes it as giving an "extra" attack but the combat rules do state if you are wielding a weapon in the off-hand, you get that "extra" attack anyway. Improved and Greater TWF, though, DO grant extra attacks (at -5 and -10 penalties).
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In order to use the TWF mechanic for an extra attack, you have to apply penalties to all your attacks. So if you've made any attacks without penalties, then you're no longer eligible for the extra attack from the TWF mechanic.
However, there's also nothing in the TWF rules that contradicts or alters the rule that you can choose to stop and take a move action after seeing how your first attack turns out. That rule hasn't gone away.
The net result, then, is that you can declare TWF, make your first attack with penalties, and then decide whether to continue or not.
So here's another question: I have a long sword in one hand, a short sword in the other. My BAB is +6/+1, and I have the TWF feat (not improved). I choose to NOT use TWF, I can still make one attack with the LS and one attack with the SS at NO penalty (+6/+1). If I choose to use TWF, as above, then it gets demoted to (+4/+4/-1) with the third, extra, attack?
Other scenario: same setup but I've taken my turn. Enemy moves through a square I threaten and provokes AoO. Do I attack with my main- and off-hand weapons? Just my main hand? Can I choose which hand makes the AoO?
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So here's another question: I have a long sword in one hand, a short sword in the other. My BAB is +6/+1, and I have the TWF feat (not improved). I choose to NOT use TWF, I can still make one attack with the LS and one attack with the SS at NO penalty (+6/+1). If I choose to use TWF, as above, then it gets demoted to (+4/+4/-1) with the third, extra, attack?
Correct. There's actually a FAQ post explaining all this.
Other scenario: same setup but I've taken my turn. Enemy moves through a square I threaten and provokes AoO. Do I attack with my main- and off-hand weapons? Just my main hand? Can I choose which hand makes the AoO? Does using TWF require a full attack?
TWF has zero impact on AoOs. You can make an AoO with any one weapon you currently threaten with, but only one, and take no TWF penalties.
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1) To be able to make the second attack with the off hand weapon you need to take the penalty on the first attack, even if you later change your your decision and move instead of making the other attacks.
Taking the penalty is an enabler to be able to use TWF, if you don't take it you can't make a second attack.
2) The -2 penalty applies to all the attacks. with iterative attacks you use your full bonus from BAB -5 (or -10 or -15) plus any modifier from other factors, be it your strength, rapid shot, TWF, prayer and so on.
For your second set of questions you can use either weapon interchangeably.
When TWFing you must use different weapons. If you're simply attacking with iteratives you can use the same weapon, drop a weapon and quickdraw a new one and attack with that one, or attack with weapons in different hands. Pretty much anything goes assuming you can wield it.
You may attack with any weapon you are currently wielding and threatening the appropriate space with when making AOO. Only one attack for this particular provocation.
So ideally, with +6/+1 (or any bonus involving iterative attacks), you'd want to use your "better" weapon for each iterative attack, if you're wielding two weapons. The light off-hand weapon is really only useful for the TWF feat or if you don't mind taking the -4/-4 penalty for the extra off-hand attack.
Suppose I have a fighter 15 with iterative attacks from my BAB at +15/+10/+5, I don't have the TWF feat, and I'm wielding a long sword in each hand. This puts me at -6/-10. Based on the TWF table, iterative attacks on my main hand suffer the -6, and all iterative attacks from my off-hand suffer the -10? It's easy when you've got the feats and a light weapon in one hand... but say I use TWF in this non-ideal scenario, and switch off between my hands -- the math might be +9/+5/+4/-5?
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So ideally, with +6/+1 (or any bonus involving iterative attacks), you'd want to use your "better" weapon for each iterative attack, if you're wielding two weapons. The light off-hand weapon is really only useful for the TWF feat or if you don't mind taking the -4/-4 penalty for the extra off-hand attack.
I find that most users of TWF use the same (light) weapon in each hand, so that things like Weapon Focus can apply to all their attacks. As a result, there's usually not a "better" weapon in practice.
Suppose I have a fighter 15 with iterative attacks from my BAB at +15/+10/+5, I don't have the TWF feat, and I'm wielding a long sword in each hand. This puts me at -6/-10. Based on the TWF table, iterative attacks on my main hand suffer the -6, and all iterative attacks from my off-hand suffer the -10? It's easy when you've got the feats and a light weapon in one hand... but say I use TWF in this non-ideal scenario, and switch off between my hands -- the math might be +9/+5/+4/-5?
First, remember that even if you attack with both weapons, you're not taking TWF penalties unless you're using the TWF mechanic to gain an extra attack over and beyond your iteratives.
Now, assuming you choose to do so, you actually have fewer options than if you weren't TWFing. (This is also pointed out in the FAQ I mentioned earlier; have you read it?)
When you decide to use TWF, one of your swords becomes your "main hand" while the other becomes you "off hand". The off hand (at -10) will be used for the extra attack granted by TWF and nothing else. The main hand (at -6) will be used for your entire suite of iteratives.
Now, assuming you choose to do so, you actually have fewer options than if you weren't TWFing. (This is also pointed out in the FAQ I mentioned earlier; have you read it?)
When you decide to use TWF, one of your swords becomes your "main hand" while the other becomes you "off hand". The off hand (at -10) will be used for the extra attack granted by TWF and nothing else. The main hand (at -6) will be used for your entire suite of iteratives.
I have read the FAQ in question before, but it's been a while. The second paragraph I quoted is the exact answer I'm looking for.
To be clear, I understand it thusly: attacks made by fighter 15 without using TWF without the feat would look something like +9/+5/+4/-1, with all but the +5 being made with the "main-hand" weapon. Does it matter where in the order of attacks the extra, off-hand attack occurs in the course of the iteratives? At the end, or after the first attack?
These details aren't as important to me in building a character but will be useful in making sure that my players understand their options once iterative attacks open up to them (probably in the next session or two).
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To be clear, I understand it thusly: attacks made by fighter 15 without using TWF without the feat would look something like +9/+5/+4/-1, with all but the +5 being made with the "main-hand" weapon. Does it matter where in the order of attacks the extra, off-hand attack occurs in the course of the iteratives? At the end, or after the first attack?The +4/-1 attacks can actually be made with either weapon.
Actually, no. Per the FAQ, once you're in TWF mode, all your iteratives are made with your main hand.
Post redacted and replaced with the FAQ's ruling since my original post was written while the thread was being updated. Here's the pertinent part of the FAQ.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
Yep, that pretty much sums it up. I'd probably houserule it so that you can attack with either hand per Bizbag's explanation, since locking your iteratives into a single hand doesn't make sense to me, unless there is a logical explanation behind the FAQ answer that I'm not getting.
That's because I was wrong, el cuervo. It's always 9 (m) / 5 (o) / 4 (m) / -1 (m).
If your OH happens to be better, you can use that as your MH instead, but ask your GM - he may require you to swap your weapons to your other hands first (since ambidexterity is considered part of having the TWF feat).
I am the GM, so it really doesn't matter to me what it is. :D
I still don't see the logic behind the answer of the FAQ; I'm not sure how the extra attack locks in the iterative attacks. Those iteratives shouldn't be affected by the "extra" attack as I see it; abstracting the rules indicates that you're just so good at fighting that you can swing a weapon (in either hand) much faster than you could when you weren't as good at fighting. I'm not sure how TWF changes that from a logical standpoint.
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So what you're saying is, your rules question has been answered and now you're deciding on your house rules? ;)
Best of luck! (And for what it's worth, I agree that it shouldn't matter which hands perform the remaining iteratives; I can't foresee anything breaking if you make that change.)
It's a simplification due to availability - at level 15, the TWF can have 4, 5, or 6 attacks depending on his feats. If he has 5, his first 4 are "locked". If he has 6, all of them are "locked". It keeps the rules simple to simply say "once TWF, all iteratives are MH, all bonus attacks are OH".
Once I started doing the hypothetical math...
"Okay, well with 4 iterative attacks from AB, add in haste, greater TWF, this hand could make this attack at this bonus, and this one at this bonus on this attack..."
(5 minutes later)
No way am I going to house rule that iteratives can be done with either hand. It's just too much to calculate, and I agree now, after seeing the math, that iteratives are locked in for good reason -- to simplify. If they were allowed to be made with either hand, adding in TWF, then you'd have to apply different penalties to each hand for each iterative attack and it just becomes a mess.