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My Cavalier paladin has the Emmisary archetype with the class ability of "In or out of the saddle", which reads:
At 1st level, an emissary gains Mounted Combat as a bonus feat. In addition, he can move at normal speed when wearing Medium armor. This ability replaces Tactician.
- Ultimate combat, Page 37
Mithral makes armor lighter and says
Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor’s check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving
- Player's handbook, page 154-155
Does this mean that an Emissary in Mithral full plate moves at normal speed?
My reasoning is that even though it is Heavy armor, it is treated as Medium armor, specifically for movement, as long as the wearer is proficient, as most if not all Cavaliers are.
Therefore, since it is treated as Medium armor, I should move at normal speed as if wearing Medium armor and making use of the Emmisary ability, "In or out of the saddle"
Members of my table disagree, thinking that the class ability is limited to Medium armors (specifically breastplate, chain mail, etc.), making them the same as light armor, which is not what the ability does.
If someone could clarify what the mithral quality actually does in regards to the armor category, it would be helpful.
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It decreases the armor category by one, minimum light, for everything except proficiency. This includes the emissary's class feature. RAW, you are absolutely correct. If, for whatever reason, your DM feels that it is unbalanced, he has the option of ignoring RAW and saying no, however. Discuss it with your DM if necessary. Are they objecting because "that seems overpowered" or "the rules don't say that"?
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It decreases the armor category by one, minimum light, for everything except proficiency. This includes the emissary's class feature. RAW, you are absolutely correct. If, for whatever reason, your DM feels that it is unbalanced, he has the option of ignoring RAW and saying no, however. Discuss it with your DM if necessary. Are they objecting because "that seems overpowered" or "the rules don't say that"?
It's Pathfinder Society, so it's supposed to be RAW, unbalanced or not.
The group I play with seems to think that because it's originally heavy armor, the class ability doesn't affect it, even though it's treated as medium armor with mithral.
Since the ability specifically says "medium armor", they think it only applies to Hide, breastplate, chainmail, etc. and ONLY those armors.
Ah. Then nope, their opinion doesn't matter at all, RAW trumps it. Mithril full plate is medium armor for everything that isn't proficiency. Emissary class ability isn't proficiency. An emissary can move at full speed in mithril full plate. Contact your venture captain or whoever's meant to be in charge if needed.
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Ok, first of all it wasn’t a conversation the poster was having with “members of his table”. He was having a conversation with the VC and a VO of our lodge. (yes I know the poster as we are in the same PFS lodge) The conversation was not with any of the GM’s running.
Now I think what the VC and VO were looking at was where it states that Mithral makes armor one category lighter for purposes of Movement and other limitations (not EVERYTHING Ipslore – don’t add words) and does not make say heavy armor actually medium armor, it’s just treated as such. Now with that said, I am (as the poster will undoubtedly confirm) the single biggest hard line GM in our lodge when it comes to RAI over RAW, but I agree with the poster on this one. If you rule as the VC and VO did in their conversation, in regards to the Cavalier and Emmisary with regards to Heavy armor is still heavy armor, then you have to rule that way for all classes in regards to using mithral to make armor a class category lighter, Rangers, Rogues etc etc with all their special abilities that are tied to medium and or light armor. If the rule stated armor is treated as one category lighter for movement purposes and all RELATED limitations, now I would agree with the VC and VO, but it doesn’t, nor do I think that was their Intent. The poster in my opinion is correct, the cavalier would treat the Mithral Plate as medium armor for purposes of “In or out of the saddle”.
Now an issue I DO have issue with something the poster stated that RAW should trump RAI in PFS always unbalanced or not….{insert buzzer noise here}. The developers have already posted that it was not their intention or ability to try and cover every loophole, every exploit in the rules, that they expected the GM’s and players to use common sense on how a rule should be applied when the intent is clear. It is not the purpose of PFS for players to find loopholes to create exploit monsters with. When you do this you reduce the enjoyment of all the players at your table who have not done so, and many times reduce if not ruin the flavor and excitement of the adventure in question. If the developers (as they have stated before) wrote a set of rules that they had to try and cover every possible loophole to prevent exploit, the books would be incredibly large, unwieldy, and cumbersome. Please use common sense even in PFS, if you think something looks whacky…chances are it is.
Bottom line of topic though, I agree with Quite Riot on his interpretation on of Mithral and it’s effect on armor categories.
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I can see both sides of the argument here and would defer to the GM on their interpretation.
I guess the big question here is which of these "specific" rules is to be considered the "general" rule. I would imagine the class ability is the "general" and the equipment the "specific". And if that's the case, the op would be correct and he should be able to move at full speed in the Mithral plate.
Unless the extra movement somehow broke an encounter, I as a Gm couldn't bring myself to split hairs over the players interpretation on this.
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Ok, first of all it wasn’t a conversation the poster was having with “members of his table”. He was having a conversation with the VC and a VO of our lodge. (yes I know the poster as we are in the same PFS lodge) The conversation was not with any of the GM’s running.
Eh, semantics. "A table" is just what I refer to a group of gamers as, whether they're actually in game or not. Since we play with the same general group most of the time, I refer to the regulars as a table. It's just one of my idiosyncrasies.
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations."
"In addition, he can move at normal speed when wearing Medium armor."
Mithral heavy armor is treated as medium armor for the purposes of movement. Emissaries can move at normal speed when wearing medium armor. This is a movement rule. It's the one thing mithral specifically addresses. It's almost the same movement as armor training for a fighter. Can a level 1-6 fighter move at normal speed in mithral heavy armor? Yes.
Just like a fighter with Armor Training I - odd for a 1st level ability but sure thing.
Fighters get Armor Training 1 at 3rd level sure, but Emissaries are only getting the medium armor movement part at 1st level. I think that's fair. Plus you still have to spend the feat on heavy armor proficiency to avoid the penalties.
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Fighters get Armor Training 1 at 3rd level sure, but Emissaries are only getting the medium armor movement part at 1st level. I think that's fair. Plus you still have to spend the feat on heavy armor proficiency to avoid the penalties.
Not to mention forgoing Tactician and the related bonus feats and branch abilities. And as I mentioned, no feat is required for heavy armor because cavaliers are already proficient with it.
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Thanks for posting Quiet Riot. I was at the table and he was using Hero lab as "proof" that it worked. We didn't want to slow the game down nor was the "character" in question playing the scenario. He was leveling another character.
I asked him to post in the forum if he couldn't find the exact situation. My thought is always check the actual books first when you are trying to coordinate abilities, not Hero Lab. Hero lab is great, but not for rules.
My first thought along with two other PFS officers was it was still Heavy armour first and mithril as an add on... and couldn't move down two steps for movement.
Thanks for all your help!
Baron Jett
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My first thought along with two other PFS officers was it was still Heavy armour first and mithril as an add on... and couldn't move down two steps for movement.
It doesn't move down two steps.
The use of Mithril allows the heavy armor to be treated as one category lighter (i.e. as medium armor) for movement purposes.
The Emissary archetype allows a cavalier to move normally when wearing medium armor.
Nothing requires the armor to be classified as light armor (i.e. two steps lighter); that one step (heavy to medium) is all that is necessary.
Yup, as everyone has noted. It's just like how having Endurance lets you sleep in Mithral Full Plate without getting fatigued.
Not to mention forgoing Tactician and the related bonus feats and branch abilities. And as I mentioned, no feat is required for heavy armor because cavaliers are already proficient with it.
If you will direct your attention to this line of the Emissary Archetype
Armor Proficiency: An emissary does not gain proficiency with heavy armor.
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Not to mention forgoing Tactician and the related bonus feats and branch abilities. And as I mentioned, no feat is required for heavy armor because cavaliers are already proficient with it.If you will direct your attention to this line of the Emissary Archetype
Armor Proficiency: An emissary does not gain proficiency with heavy armor.
Huh, didn't notice that. Oh well. My Paladin levels take care of that, so w/e.
Also, Baronjett, I wasn't using HeroLab as "Proof". I said QUITE CLEARLY that I was working off of my understanding of the books and Herolab just happened to agree with me. I was quoting the books (from PDFs), not Herolab.
Now I think what the VC and VO were looking at was where it states that Mithral makes armor one category lighter for purposes of Movement and other limitations (not EVERYTHING Ipslore – don’t add words) and does not make say heavy armor actually medium armor, it’s just treated as such.
What's the difference between "treated as medium armor" and "actually being medium armor"?
As much as people hate to admit it Hero Lab is usually right though.
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Contact your venture captain or whoever's meant to be in charge if needed.Venture captain disagreed with me, but he told me to take it to forums. :I
Yes I disagreed. Given the way you presented it to me. I also told you to ask on the boards BECAUSE you would get a answer faster than I could provide seeing as I was heading back to work and it was the last slot of the day and you planned on playing the character soon.
Providing me with a quote from a book and then not having the book does not help me or you. I am not familiar with the class or its features, hence me asking the VOs. The ruling was NOT set in stone and I told you that. That's why I said ask online and see what is said. Then if their was an issue you could book mark it and have a reference. I am sorry if you did not like my answer or my suggestion. However keep in mind if you had shown up to a table and you were playing this character you would need the reference material(s) and not hero lab.