Yes, that is correct. Mechanically, they aren't a threat. And that is the problem we are trying to solve.
After all, to use a RW example, just because you are a master martial artist and a trained marksmen doesn't mean you ignore the cop trying to pull you over for speeding. What we are trying to work out are ways that the PCs can be brought to see that even though mechanically they can do something it doesn't mean that they should do it.
I don't think you get my point. It's not about ethics, it's about power.
Your remark about martial artists and cops has no relation to what I'm saying. High-level character can afford ignore low-level threats because they are on a much higher power level. That's kinda of the point of being high-level.
It's the same reason you use CR-appropriate encounters instead of throwing 1st level goblin all the day to 20th level. Guys with mundane crossbows are a low CR encounter, it makes perfect sense that it isn't a threat to high-level characters.
Just like it makes sense that a bunch of guys with ordinary firearms are not a threat to Superman.
You can always make something strange or menacing about one or two of the bowmen/archers as well, which might make the group hesitate. In one of my campaigns, a story npc was a shade that had been a ranger before the God of Shadows blessed him. When the adventurers came to his city, he was on the wall... description as follows...
"You arrive at the gate, which seems to be guarded by two men. You see several arrow slits to the sides angled towards the gates. The guards call out "Halt! No one is permitted to enter!"
(After several moments of conversation getting them nowhere, the barbarian intimidates the guard)
"Let us in, or we let ourselves in!"
The guard whistles, and several longbows protrude from the arrow slits, even as a shadow glides across the parapet taking the form of a Cat-Like human with glowing red angry eyes and a massive bow seeming to drip shadows or oil. Nonchalantly the figure draws his arrow, nearly two feet long and points it at the barbarian. "Desist.... or be erased. None may enter without my Lord's permission..."
Needless to say, the barbarian was told to shut up, and the party continued to negotiate.
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Yes, that is correct. Mechanically, they aren't a threat. And that is the problem we are trying to solve.I don't think you get my point. It's not about ethics, it's about power.
Just like it makes sense that a bunch of guys with ordinary firearms are not a threat to Superman.
It has nothing to do about ethics.
The point of leveling up is indeed to be more powerful and survive tougher encounter.
But narratively speaking, I do make a difference between falling (or being thrown) down a cliff and casually jumping down one, although the damage is the same. Similarly, I do make a difference between dodging/withstanding 15 crossbow bolts in a fight and being shot point blank while whistling as if nothing ever happened, even though the damage is the same.
My point is that PCs, even at high levels, are not Superman. They are not invulnerable, even if they have many resources and magic that allow them to survive against impossible odds. Their hit points is a limited, measurable amount of plot immunity, a la Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones or an unarmoured Tony Stark. Regular firearms work just fine against them, it's just that bullets (or laser blasts) somehow never get to hit them (ie. they lost an abstract amount of hp) in a firefight. But if their head is under the guillotine, I shouldn't have to reset the instrument 4 times before their head get chopped off.
My point is that PCs, even at high levels, are not Superman. They are not invulnerable, even if they have many resources and magic that allow them to survive against impossible odds. Their hit points is a limited, measurable amount of plot immunity, a la Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones or an unarmoured Tony Stark. Regular firearms work just fine against them, it's just that bullets (or laser blasts) somehow never get to hit them (ie. they lost an abstract amount of hp).
Well, they might not be literally invulnerable, but they sure are tough enough to ignore mundane threats.
Tony Stark would be a 5~6th level Artificer with unlimited WBL and access to artifacts. 5th level is about as far as "realistic and gritty" campaigns go. After that, character are no longer limited to the realm of what's humanly possible anymore. By 10th level, characters are supposedly tougher than a T-Rex and even a young dragon. They can kick Hercules' ass. Crossbowmen don't stand a chance.
That's why I say that wanting a bunch of crossbowmen to be a threat to high level character is like wanting a bunch of thugs to be a threat to Superman. In game terms, it's something like wanting a CR3~5 encounter to be a threat to 10th level characters.
It isn't a threat because the character are above that point. They are justifiably capable of ignoring an enemy so much weaker than them. There is no point in trying to keep PCs afraid of ordinary enemies when they are far beyond what an ordinary person can do.
To threaten the PCs, you must use level-appropriate threats, not fiat low-level encounters into something they shouldn't be.
Of course, injury is not the only risk PCs are forced to deal with. The enemy can use hostages or threaten to remove his support from the PC's kingdom, etc. Just because the PCs are tough enough to ignore an enemy's attack, it doesn't mean the enemy is not a threat.
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I don't think you get my point. It's not about ethics, it's about power.
Quite simply, the complaint is that the power gap between low and high levels is too stark and the stories you tell in one cannot be told in the other. This has always been a problem with the d20 system and people will continue to look for ways to change it instead of finding a different game, because there is no reason to learn a different system if a tweak to your known system will do.
Laurefindel, I second what 3catcircus originally suggested - Vitality & Wound System. Vitality represents your ability to deflect attacks or turn deadly strikes into glancing blows.
Wound points represent actually getting physically hit. The way I have done it in the past, Vitality Points (VP) are equal to the current HP system. Wound Points (WP) are equivalent to the character's Constitution score.
Critical hits due to a natural 20 & confirmed strike directly against a target's WP rather than VP, doing single damage (for a x2 weapon), 1.5 damage (for a x3 weapon), and double damage (for a x4 weapon). Other criticals are treated as normal against VP.
So the high level PCs can charge the 20 crossbowmen if they choose, but one critical hit can be devastating. Two or three critical hits are going to drop most characters, regardless of level (because WP never increase beyond the character's Constitution score.)
If a character decides to jump down forty feet, then I would suggest that the damage applies directly to WP (Can't dodge the floor).
As an additional rule, if a characters suffers 50% or more Wound damage, they are struck with some kind of semi-permanent injury. The injury can generally be healed through long-term care, but not a simple healing spell.
The system provides more survivability to low-level characters while also keeping things dangerous for higher level characters.
I don't think you get my point. It's not about ethics, it's about power.Quite simply, the complaint is that the power gap between low and high levels is too stark and the stories you tell in one cannot be told in the other. This has always been a problem with the d20 system and people will continue to look for ways to change it instead of finding a different game, because there is no reason to learn a different system if a tweak to your known system will do.
I love the fact that the power gap between levels is that wide. (I just don't like power gap between characters of the same level)
D&D/PF is made to represent a great variety of power scales, this vastly increases the numbers of stories we create.
If someone wants their games to be "realistic", they can limit it to low levels. E6 works wonders for that. OTOH, if they want to play a game where their characters are fantastic creatures capable of doing impossible tasks, they can skip directly to the high level. And finally, if they enjoy the gradual progression from "unusually skilled peasant" to "dragon-slaying demigod", they can play all 20 levels.
The beauty of the E6 system is that anyone can adjust it to their tastes. E4, E8, E15, E6-to-12. Whatever. Choose the power scale you want, and enjoy.
Complaining that completely different levels offer completely different power scales doesn't make sense to me.
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I love the fact that the power gap is that wide.And not everyone does, thus this thread.
Sure. I'm just sharing my opinion on the matter. That's the whole point of forum threads, after all.
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On the subject of opinions, mine is that the range of stories to be told is a good thing as well. Even better is the modularity of the rules such that you can alter the different ranges to tell any story. It may not mesh perfectly, but you can bring the low level worry of instadeath to the high levels and high level invulnerability to low levels with just some rules tweaks. Like a horrible Frankenstein Lego set, the rules support many things.
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Laurefindel, I second what 3catcircus originally suggested - Vitality & Wound System. Vitality represents your ability to deflect attacks or turn deadly strikes into glancing blows.
I'm currently using Evil Lincoln's variant hit point rules, and I must say they work beautifully for the purpose of differentiating between connecting blows and near misses (or luck, or dink in armour etc). My own system uses a variation of the Vitality-Wounds. The Vitality-Wounds as written is a bit too complex for me, or I should say, adds another layer of complexity that makes the game too complex overall; but I love the idea of differentiating lost hp as plot immunity from those lost to actual injuries.
At the moment, all of that is crystallizing around a central point: there are situations were the normal rules for damage don't work in order to recreate the cinematic feel that I'm going for. Theses are mainly situations where a character is at the mercy of another (the en-joue crossbow trope), situations of stealthy insta-kill (the Steven Seagal trope) and situations that no normal being should consider without special powers/magic (jumping down 40ft, wading through lava etc).
I think that I need to identify these threats, state how they differentiate from regular action scenes and how players can easily recognize them.
Then I will have to decide what happens if a character ignores those threats, such as damage going straight to Wounds (bypassing vitality if such a system is used) or another consequence to be determined, possibly involving a saving throw of some sort.
Then integrate that into a fantasy settings were characters can actually survive a dragon breath, a stab in the back and (accidental) immersion into lava, and with the rest of the rules as written (easier said then done).
hum...
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My point is that PCs, even at high levels, are not Superman. They are not invulnerable, even if they have many resources and magic that allow them to survive against impossible odds. Their hit points is a limited, measurable amount of plot immunity, a la Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones or an unarmoured Tony Stark. Regular firearms work just fine against them, it's just that bullets (or laser blasts) somehow never get to hit them (ie. they lost an abstract amount of hp).Well, they might not be literally invulnerable, but they sure are tough enough to ignore mundane threats.
Tony Stark would be a 5~6th level Artificer with unlimited WBL and access to artifacts. 5th level is about as far as "realistic and gritty" campaigns go. After that, character are no longer limited to the realm of what's humanly possible anymore. By 10th level, characters are supposedly tougher than a T-Rex and even a young dragon. They can kick Hercules' ass. Crossbowmen don't stand a chance.
That's why I say that wanting a bunch of crossbowmen to be a threat to high level character is like wanting a bunch of thugs to be a threat to Superman. In game terms, it's something like wanting a CR3~5 encounter to be a threat to 10th level characters.
It isn't a threat because the character are above that point. They are justifiably capable of ignoring an enemy so much weaker than them. There is no point in trying to keep PCs afraid of ordinary enemies when they are far beyond what an ordinary person can do.
To threaten the PCs, you must use level-appropriate threats, not fiat low-level encounters into something they shouldn't be.
Of course, injury is not the only risk PCs are forced to deal with. The enemy can use hostages or threaten to remove his support from the PC's kingdom, etc. Just because the PCs are tough enough to ignore an enemy's attack, it doesn't mean the enemy is not a threat.
You, as the player, know the full extent of your character's strength, abilities, hit points, armor class, etc. Your character, on the other hand, does not.
First, it is meta-gaming for your character to laugh at a dozen armed guards and say, "Crossbows? P'shaw! I have nearly 200 hit points, damage reduction, and my armor class is through the roof. Hit me with your best shot!" Your character knows that he has indeed gotten more powerful, but unless you are role-playing an arrogant and bloodthirsty psychotic, very few people, even battle-hardened adventurers, will want to risk getting shot in the face by guards who have them dead-to-rights.
Second, how does your character know the relative CR threat level of the guards?
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First, it is meta-gaming for your character to laugh at a dozen armed guards and say, "Crossbows? P'shaw! I have nearly 200 hit points, damage reduction, and my armor class is through the roof. Hit me with your best shot! Unless you are role-playing a bloodthirsty psychotic, very few people, even battle-hardened adventurers, will want to risk getting shot in the face by guards who have them dead-to-rights.
That's very different from "I've been shot full of holes by elven archer lords, slashed and sliced by the axes of barbarian hordes, stabbed and cut by the Grey Assassins on five occasions, hammered with magic from countless mages over and over, and I have lived. I survived the talons of a griffon, the sting of a manticore, the tentacles of a squid the size of a ship, and even the jaws of a dragon! Why should I fear some pitiful guard in a small town and his miserable little toy? Have your shot! I am no coward, and you are no threat."
First, it is meta-gaming for your character to laugh at a dozen armed guards and say, "Crossbows? P'shaw! I have nearly 200 hit points (snip)That's very different from "I've been shot full of holes by elven archer lords, slashed and sliced by the axes of barbarian hordes, stabbed and cut by the Grey Assassins on five occasions, hammered with magic from countless mages over and over, and I have lived.
In my eyes; yes it is different, which is the crux of the whole tread.
Not disputing that, just calling Louis on his mischaracterization of the situation. (FWIW, I'm with Lemmy in that I like the dissonance of "low-level threats can't threaten high-level characters" so I have nothing to offer you.)
It's not always "I'm so much higher level than you, you can't hurt me" and just as often the more-justified "I've faced much, much worse things than you, you don't scare me" of a confident character with a lot of experience under their belt.
Characters may not know the exact numbers of their stats, but they sure as hell do know what they're capable of.
You, as the player, know the full extent of your character's strength, abilities, hit points, armor class, etc. Your character, on the other hand, does not.
First, it is meta-gaming for your character to laugh at a dozen armed guards and say, "Crossbows? P'shaw! I have nearly 200 hit points, damage reduction, and my armor class is through the roof. Hit me with your best shot!" Your character knows that he has indeed gotten more powerful, but unless you are role-playing an arrogant and bloodthirsty psychotic, very few people, even battle-hardened adventurers, will want to risk getting shot in the face by guards who have them dead-to-rights.
Second, how does your character know the relative CR threat level of the guards?
It'd be metagaming if the character knew that he has 128 hp, AC 28 and DR 5/magic... But knowing that he survived worse is completely within reason. The character doesn't forget the time he survived a dragon's full attack, and he's perfectly aware that those puny crossbows are nothing in comparison. Just like Superman is not afraid of ordinary bullets because he knows very well that they are no threat to him.
Orthos put it beautifully...
That's very different from "I've been shot full of holes by elven archer lords, slashed and sliced by the axes of barbarian hordes, stabbed and cut by the Grey Assassins on five occasions, hammered with magic from countless mages over and over, and I have lived. I survived the talons of a griffon, the sting of a manticore, the tentacles of a squid the size of a ship, and even the jaws of a dragon! Why should I fear some pitiful guard in a small town and his miserable little toy? Have your shot! I am no coward, and you are no threat."
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I also agree with Louis in that players should be in character with this. Surviving all those slings and arrows before means you remember how much those damn things hurt. Unless your character is Blain from Predator and 'don't have time to bleed' he should be wary of exposing himself to further pain. It would help if there were rules for pain getting in the way of a character, but there isn't, so I expect players to at least consider that when their character makes that choice.
Orthos put it beautifully...That's very different from "I've been shot full of holes by elven archer lords, slashed and sliced by the axes of barbarian hordes, stabbed and cut by the Grey Assassins on five occasions, hammered with magic from countless mages over and over, and I have lived. I survived the talons of a griffon, the sting of a manticore, the tentacles of a squid the size of a ship, and even the jaws of a dragon! Why should I fear some pitiful guard in a small town and his miserable little toy? Have your shot! I am no coward, and you are no threat."
Thing is I see hit points as an abstract system.
The way I see it, the protagonist reciting above quote never got "shot full of holes by elven archer lords". He got a few non life-threatening wounds and lost some abstract hit points, which I see more as plot immunity points. Just like Hans Solo survived the Storm Troopers - he never got shot once despite the whole contingent shooting at him, but we can imagine that his character lost quite a few hit points...
I'm of those that don't beleive that a 10th level character has 10 times the amount of blood in his body than a 1st level character: he's just 10 times better at surviving the same situation somehow
Yeah, that's a strong stylistic difference. I have no issues with treating them as actual injuries, or with high-level characters being able to take superhuman levels of abuse. That's kind of what the game is all about, for me - going above and beyond anything considered "normal reality".
I also like a high-level world where the PCs aren't the only people above 5th level, so when I need threats that are on par with what the PCs can bring I have them on-hand. But again that's a style preference that obviously isn't shared here.
Re: TOZ - while true, a high-level adventurer could probably be confident he could dodge the town militia grunt's shot, or that there's no way some kid's crossbow would pierce through his magic armor or protective spell(s). He could be proven wrong - everyone rolls a 20 from time to time - but if the character's confident that the guard can't land that one in a million shot, then the threat of "don't want to feel that pain again" mostly goes away.
Thing is I see hit points as an abstract system.
So do I... Mostly. I like to think that, say, 8th level character (or anything beyond 5th, to be fair) do have superhuman toughness, (they are beyond what is humanly possible, after all), it's just that not all (or even most) of their HP is necessarily actual physical health.
The way I see it, the protagonist reciting above quote never got "shot full of holes by elven archer lords". He got a few non life-threatening wounds and lost some abstract hit points, which I see more as plot immunity points. Just like Hans Solo survived the Storm Troopers - he never got shot once despite the whole contingent shooting at him, but we can imagine that his character lost quite a few hit points...
I'm of those that don't beleive that a 10th level character has 10 times the amount of blood in his body than a 1st level character: he's just 10 times better at surviving the same situation somehow
That's the thing... If he can survive being slashed by a dragon's claws by blocking it, evading or downright taking it and simply surviving the wound, he can do it to crossbows as well. Maybe that hit point damage he takes from crossbows is just the stamina he spent deflecting them away, and since those bolts deal relatively low HP damage to him, he deflected them quite easily.
He knows he can survive those bolts because he survived worse.
Whatever it is that HP represents, the characters are fully aware they have enough of it to treat ordinary crossbowmen like the minor threats they are.
EDIT: And of course, Orthos Ninjas me again... -.-'
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Orthos put it beautifully...That's very different from "I've been shot full of holes by elven archer lords, slashed and sliced by the axes of barbarian hordes, stabbed and cut by the Grey Assassins on five occasions, hammered with magic from countless mages over and over, and I have lived. I survived the talons of a griffon, the sting of a manticore, the tentacles of a squid the size of a ship, and even the jaws of a dragon! Why should I fear some pitiful guard in a small town and his miserable little toy? Have your shot! I am no coward, and you are no threat."Thing is I see hit points as an abstract system.
The way I see it, the protagonist reciting above quote never got "shot full of holes by elven archer lords". He got a few non life-threatening wounds and lost some abstract hit points, which I see more as plot immunity points.
What if all those arrows were poisoned? Why did I have to make Fort saves for near misses?
Orthos put it beautifully...That's very different from "I've been shot full of holes by elven archer lords, slashed and sliced by the axes of barbarian hordes, stabbed and cut by the Grey Assassins on five occasions, hammered with magic from countless mages over and over, and I have lived. I survived the talons of a griffon, the sting of a manticore, the tentacles of a squid the size of a ship, and even the jaws of a dragon! Why should I fear some pitiful guard in a small town and his miserable little toy? Have your shot! I am no coward, and you are no threat."Thing is I see hit points as an abstract system.
The way I see it, the protagonist reciting above quote never got "shot full of holes by elven archer lords". He got a few non life-threatening wounds and lost some abstract hit points, which I see more as plot immunity points. Just like Hans Solo survived the Storm Troopers - he never got shot once despite the whole contingent shooting at him, but we can imagine that his character lost quite a few hit points...
I'm of those that don't beleive that a 10th level character has 10 times the amount of blood in his body than a 1st level character: he's just 10 times better at surviving the same situation somehow
The problem is that the rules dont operate this way. The comparison to super heroes is really apt. The game you want stops being workable in the normal rules after like level 6-8 in more then just hit points. You arent playing superman per say (he is totally a munchkin who conned the dm into letting him play a custom race he found in a badly balanced side product). But you are playing like the xmen, or spiderman. And while there is some minor threat to a bunch of guys with guns pointed at spidey, he usually can just surive it with a few quick web slings and some dodgey moves. That is how the game plays out, untill very high levels where you start entering justice league territory and literall invulnerability to 'normal' folks.
Its not just hitpoints, though that is among the most apparent ones. Things like poisons, or environmental hazards, drowning, everything that is a literal threat to a normal person stops being a threat to high level characters. A prepared character can walk into a burning building have it collapse on him and still walk out carrying the plot maguffin virtually unharmed.
You might want to bypass this for cinematic reasons, but remember there are serious balance consequences to messing with how hitpoints or other fundamental things work. For instance, if 'getting the drop' on someone with a normal crossbow is supposed to be a threat, what happens when the ninja of equal level and the viscious, wounding+5 katana gets the drop on you with 5d6 sneak attack, ability damage, and poison on the blade?
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What if all those arrows were poisoned? Why did I have to make Fort saves for near misses and the loss of "plot immunity points"?
Maybe they were just a scratch. Small physical damage, but still enough to poison you.
HP is a bit hazy, after all... You can't treat it like it's all physical health, but you can't treat it like it's just luck/stamina either...
That's the thing... If he can survive being slashed by a dragon's claws by blocking it, evading or downright taking it and simply surviving the wound, he can do it to crossbows as well. Maybe that hit point damage he takes from crossbows is just the stamina he spent deflecting them away, and since those bolts deal relatively low HP damage to him, he deflected them quite easily.
I recon there are situations were the character(s) do not have the latitude they need to dodge/deflect/roll with the blows as easily.
But I'm not here to tell you how to play your game Lemmy; there is a certain stylistic genre that I'm looking for and for which the default damage rules are not appropriate at all times. In this tread I called for suggestions on how to make that work. You've made your point that "my issue is not an issue" but with all due respect, I'll persist. I appreciate that your tone wasn't a "your playing the game wrong!" one.
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You can't treat it like it's all physical healthWhy not?
You probably can. In my case I prefer not to.
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You can't treat it like it's all physical healthWhy not?
Well... I suppose you can, from a rules perspective... It's just not as cinematic or (IMO) interesting.
That's the thing... If he can survive being slashed by a dragon's claws by blocking it, evading or downright taking it and simply surviving the wound, he can do it to crossbows as well. Maybe that hit point damage he takes from crossbows is just the stamina he spent deflecting them away, and since those bolts deal relatively low HP damage to him, he deflected them quite easily.I recon there are situations were the character(s) do not have the latitude they need to dodge/deflect/roll with the blows as easily.
But I'm not here to tell you how to play your game Lemmy; there is a certain stylistic genre that I'm looking for and for which the default damage rules are not appropriate at all times. In this tread I called for suggestions on how to make that work. You've made your point that "my issue is not an issue" but with all due respect, I'll persist. I appreciate that your tone wasn't a "your playing the game wrong!" one.
Have you considered just making it an e6 game? That helps alot, in a friends e6 game, though we are gaining epic feats, we were recently humbled by a set of kobolds, and this weird multi legged ferret thing that actually killed my character (who is the party's best tank). I think if you want to play with the style you are talking about, going into high levels will mean you will need to be working against the way the game functions in lots of respects and not just in terms of hit points.
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Treating hit points (at least a majority of them) as an abstract amount of avoided damage has some issues with the rules as is, some of which have been pointed out above. Why can I survive higher falls with more experience? Why do 'near misses' still require saves against poison and other effects? Why is my ability to dodge attacks recovered by a 'cure wounds' spell, and furthermore how would I even know I'm missing hp and need healing if it's an abstract attribute I'm not aware of?
It's an interesting way to play, but you need to make changes to the rules to support it, or else it turns the hitpoint system into an immersion shattering mess.
I recon there are situations were the character(s) do not have the latitude the need to dodge/deflect/roll with the blows as easily.
But I'm not here to tell you how to play your game Lemmy; there is a certain stylistic genre that I'm looking for and for which the default damage rules are not appropriate at all times. In this tread I called for suggestions on how to make that work. You've made your point that "my issue is not an issue" but with all due respect, I'll persist. I appreciate that your tone wasn't a "your playing the game wrong!" one.
Fair enough.
Just to be clear, I never meant to demean your gaming style or issue with the rules. I merely pointed what I think is a good reason for the game to work as it does in this particular scenario.
As a suggestions, I'd says simply treat the volley of arrows/bolts as a level appropriate Fireball, except it deals physical damage instead of fire damage, so energy resistance/immunity doesn't apply, but maybe DR does...
At least in theory the damage should still be significant... Although not life threatening.
I've used this before when my players were attacked by elven archers (well, they weren't the actual targets, but they were inside a very dense fog fighting creatures that were attacking elven lands, and since the elves were completely unaware of the presence of the PCs, they opened fire on the whole fog-covered area where the monsters usually hid).
Good boy. :)Well... I suppose you can, from a rules perspective... It's just not as cinematic or (IMO) interesting.You can't treat it like it's all physical healthWhy not?
Uh... Thanks...?
Have you considered just making it an e6 game? That helps alot, in a friends e6 game, though we are gaining epic feats, we were recently humbled by a set of kobolds, and this weird multi legged ferret thing that actually killed my character (snip)
Not really, but I often question going beyond 12th.. Levels 6th - 10th are my favorite to play and DM.
I have no qualms with surviving the 40ft fall, being trashed by the dragon, living through the belly flop in lava etc. These are easy enough to narrate as something plausible, and the possibilities and resources of level 6+ characters are much more enticing for my style of play.
The hp cushion is required to survive the pulp-action challenges I like to throw at my players, but this cushion has the unfortunate disadvantage of being metagaming-ly reliable. I like to see my characters just as humanly fragile as the peasant next door, just much more apt (ok well, a bit sturdier than the peasant next door, but mostly more apt to survive).
High level is cool by me, it's the Superhuman mentality that isn't. I understand and respect those who play with it, embrace it and have fun with it. But I think D&D/Pathfinder can exist without. So in lack of better argument, I'm invoking rule 0.
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Uh... Thanks...?Good boy. :)Well... I suppose you can, from a rules perspective... It's just not as cinematic or (IMO) interesting.You can't treat it like it's all physical healthWhy not?
I'm a big believer in trying to be precise in one's claims. "I prefer doing X"? Great! "You can't do not-X", well, that's a fact-claim that's gonna need backing up, except that it's referring to a topic of opinion and can therefore read very much like an attack on anyone who acknowledges/endorses not-X.
That is, "I prefer" is a statement of opinion, while "You can't" reads like badwrongfun.
[smokeyvoice]Only YOU can prevent forest fires flamewars![/smokeyvoice]
:D
I'm a big believer in trying to be precise in one's claims. "I prefer doing X"? Great! "You can't do not-X", well, that's a fact-claim that's gonna need backing up, except that it's referring to a topic of opinion and can therefore read very much like an attack on anyone who acknowledges/endorses not-X.
That is, "I prefer" is a statement of opinion, while "You can't" reads like badwrongfun.
[smokeyvoice]Only YOU can prevent
forest firesflamewars![/smokeyvoice]:D
Fair enough.
Well... Considering those crossbowmen are likely 2nd level warriors, (3rd level at best, it they are really good crossbowmen), it makes perfect sense that PC don't have to worry about it after 5~6th level.
That is a very low fantasy trope, that's why it only works on low level games.
Yep.
Superhuman attitude? My characters uaully have that at level 1 and up lol... through sheer luck they RARELy die...
Level 1 monk, leapt out a 4th story window = survived
Level 5 Fighter/barb/ranger charged a white dragon while group was discussing strategy and grappled it = survived
Level 3 Rogue entered a hive of kobold and killed the wyrmpriest assassin style, then ran bat s%!# crazy out into the ambush set by teammates = survived
Level 2 Barbarian challenged a level 5(a chieftain in the campaign) to single combat, unarmored with mundane weaponry = survived
Sometimes the super human-y effect is what kind of drives you forward as a metagame aspect, othertimes it's a character flaw :) My group has laughed at me many times for my overconfidence, then whistled as i narrowly pull off the ridiculousness (most the time)
So while i am sure in many situations the threat of crossbows to my avatar would be severe in some cases, i would still treat it as negligible depending on which i am playing. If the DM wants it to be "threatening" MAKE it threatening. Make the captain high level rnager, even if retired. Make the arrows sonic/sleep/poisoned. the group doesnt even have to see it, the guard stopping them could tell them.
I can honestly say, i have NEVER found this a problem in my campaigns, and 2 of my players can be real munchkins!
Just like Superman is not afraid of ordinary bullets because he knows very well that they are no threat to him.But... if he knows bullets will just bounce off... why does he duck when they throw the gun at him?
the gun had a DR bypass enchantment.
Well, if you're going to solve the problem under strain-injury, maybe having someone caught "dead to rights" with a ranged weapon like that means they automatically threaten a crit?
Have you considered just making it an e6 game? That helps alot, in a friends e6 game, though we are gaining epic feats, we were recently humbled by a set of kobolds, and this weird multi legged ferret thing that actually killed my character (snip)Not really, but I often question going beyond 12th.. Levels 6th - 10th are my favorite to play and DM.
I have no qualms with surviving the 40ft fall, being trashed by the dragon, living through the belly flop in lava etc. These are easy enough to narrate as something plausible, and the possibilities and resources of level 6+ characters are much more enticing for my style of play.
The hp cushion is required to survive the pulp-action challenges I like to throw at my players, but this cushion has the unfortunate disadvantage of being metagaming-ly reliable. I like to see my characters just as humanly fragile as the peasant next door, just much more apt (ok well, a bit sturdier than the peasant next door, but mostly more apt to survive).
High level is cool by me, it's the Superhuman mentality that isn't. I understand and respect those who play with it, embrace it and have fun with it. But I think D&D/Pathfinder can exist without. So in lack of better argument, I'm invoking rule 0.
I am not trying to argue with you, I can understand the look and feel you want. I just am trying to illustrate some of the challenges you are going to face.
For instance, you could make a 'dead to rights' situation where if someone gets the 'drop' on the players they score critical hits automatically (10 guys with +2 comp longbows scoring crits is pretty lethal). But then logically, how do you not face that same issue in other situations where those so called pulp challenges lie? If the ninja can get the same 'dead to rights' situation, he might wipe out the big bad before he knows whats coming.
Another common issue is poisons and other saving throw based hazards. Poison dcs are fairly low, and a high level, good fort save character has actually very little to worry about from most poisons. A poisoned meal to a 10th level pc results in a case of mild indigestion and maybe a cleric casting a lesser restoration on him. But again if you start messing with those save dcs, mr alchemist can come along and start using those newly enhanced poisoned blades to mess up encounters, OR if you make it harder to recover/resist creatures that use poison suddenly have much higher danger's then their cr's suggest.
I realize you dont like the superhuman mentality, but the thing you have to realize is mechanically the characters ARE SUPERHUMAN when you reach level 6 or 7. Its not metagamy, its reality. A 10th level fighter is not a fragile human, he's a super hero.
That article in the alexandrian is really still quite accurate (though his math no longer pans out precisely given some rules changes over the years), level 5 represents the pinacle of human ability, maybe once in a generation someone can get to level 6. When you go beyond that, you have breached the limits of the human fagility. It just isnt there anymore. And you would have to make a lot of fundamental changes to restore it.
E6 is probably your best avenue if you want to stay within pathfinder/d20, but in essense, the style of game you want to play is VERY badly represented by pathfinder once you reach mid levels. Other systems do this much, much better, they are also alot more lethal, trying to have it both ways is going to lead to a very inconsistent and actually very metagamy ruleset.
Well, if you're going to solve the problem under strain-injury, maybe having someone caught "dead to rights" with a ranged weapon like that means they automatically threaten a crit?
Right now, I'm thinking of basically re-writing what a coup-de-grace is and the conditions required to perform it. Whatever it will be, it's going to be along the line off "take injury damage and save vs. something bad".
Coup-de-grace would be one application of this yet-to-be-named manoeuvre with a Fort save vs death, but other could include Ref vs foot injury (as in spike growth spell), or whatever.
The harder part would be to list which situations are "dead to rights", and basically allow the players to come-up with their own narrative to get out of their situation (bluff vs the crossbowmen to allow escape, athletics to jump down the 4th floor using clothesline and haywaggon etc.
a bit hazy still...
So here are my thoughts.
1. I play that in circumstances where you have a reason to believe a fight is about to happen, then you can ready an action outside of initiative. If more than 3-5 rounds pass without the acti0on being triggered, you fall back into the normal way of handling things. This means that if the players talk long enough, they can get the crossbowmen to lower their guard.
2. Adding a universal ambush house rule that the an attack against a flat footed target that cannot see their attacker gets sneak attack damage as per a rogue with no limit on the range. This open up all kinds of sniper scenarios, and actual rogues would potentially get double sneak attack damage on teir first shot.
3. Minion house rules. Basically, a minion crossbowman would be 4 levels higher than a non-minion one, but they drop/die/flee in one hit. I also have a minion feat that lets minions can add the charisma bonus of their leader to their attack rolls if they are within range.
Putting all of that together. I could have 8 level 5 warrior minions with a level 7 bard leader(You could make a bard template specifically for leader of the guard). Total CR would be 9(4 level 5 minions are CR 5). The warriors are using MW Xbows and have a +8 to hit and their ambush damage would be 1d8+3d6(15 damage per shot). Against a PC with flat-footed AC of around 18, the initial volley would do around 60 damage, and most PC have around 50ish HP at that level. You are looking at another 20ish damage in the surprise round, and it gets worse if the bard starts up their bardic performance. That is enough damage to drop one PC and put another at critical health.
Note: 1 and 3 are already part of my general house rules. 2 is something I am thinking about adding.
Treating hit points (at least a majority of them) as an abstract amount of avoided damage has some issues with the rules as is, some of which have been pointed out above. Why can I survive higher falls with more experience? Why do 'near misses' still require saves against poison and other effects? Why is my ability to dodge attacks recovered by a 'cure wounds' spell, and furthermore how would I even know I'm missing hp and need healing if it's an abstract attribute I'm not aware of?
Very easily rectified. Why can you survive higher falls? You can't. Falls apply directly to Wound Points. This is much better IMO, we don't have to entertain "I can fall from outer space and survive" scenarios.
Near misses and poison - Vitality represents the ability to deflect, dodge, or turn deadly blows into minor ones. A scratch from an arrow, for example, isn't enough to justify a lost Wound Point, but it is enough to justify a save versus poison.
Cure wounds spell - This spell revitalizes people. Losing vitality is represented by getting tired. Cure Wounds heals any wounds first, and then also revitalizes the target (restores vitality.) If the semantics are what bother you, simply rename the spell Cure Light Wounds - Lesser Revitalize, Cure Moderate Wounds - Revitalize, Cure Serious Wounds - Greater Revitalize, etc.
You know you're missing vitality by being tired. If you're at 100% vitality, you're fully energized, fresh, ready for the day. As you lose vitality you become more worn, more tired, etc.
I think a lot of people posting are missing the point. The point is that certain elements of HP damage break immersion in the fantasy world. I can totally stay immersed when a high level character soaks a dragon's breath weapon and survives. How do they do it? Depends on the character. Maybe they duck behind a bolder, maybe they brace them self behind their shield, maybe they dodge about avoiding the worst of the breath weapon.
This is because: Hit points are an abstraction signifying how robust and healthy a creature is at the current moment.
However, certain wounds are not well represented by the Hit Point system. For example, if an unarmored normal character (human, elf, etc.) without any magical protections is sleeping, and a strong enemy sneaks up on them with a great axe, and strikes them with the axe, it should be no-roll death. Such a character cannot survive a chop from a great axe right to the neck.
Another example - accidentally stepping into a pool of lava or acid, a character can survive. Diving head first into a lava pool without any magical protections should be no-roll death.
The way the rules are written, you'd simply deal the amount of damage as necessary, and many characters could survive either situation. Furthermore, a character would emerge from the lava pool without any injuries at all (save for missing hit points), this doesn't provide the right framework for many campaigns.
Everyone suggesting that Pathfinder doesn't work for these situations is overlooking rule 0. The GM can easily determine that certain actions guarantee death.
Players in my campaign know that if they jump from a 100 foot high tower without any magical protections, their character simply dies. No saving throw, no rolling for damage. Simply death. Same goes for diving into pools of lava. The same applies to the enemies of course.
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Lurefindel, your game-style is the same as mine, i GM the same way. I tried to play with a GM friend of mine that were adept of "HP = Health" and i couldn't stand, it's not to my taste.
That said, i had thought about these issues a long time ago, i had rewritten many rules to fit my tastes (including created the "lesser coup de grace" thing).
Basically i divided hit points in three parts, the first 50% of the hit points i call Absorption Points, they are those points that you loose with near misses, stamina, scratches or flesh wounds.
The last 50% of hit points i named Vital Points, those are lost when the absorption points are depleted, or when other conditions are met (like bleed damage, damage with poison, some critical hits, non attack damages, harpoon, etc). If the character loose all it's Vital Points he is dying, no matter if he has Absorption Points left or not.
But i have to admit, i never thought about the crossbow conundrum you put here, maybe because my gaming groups are very fast to catch my playing style and act accordingly.
But i came up with these guidelines, they are a bit brute, but it's what i have for now.
I had created two conditions, surrendered and low guard.
SURRENDERED
A creature gains the surrendered condition when a opponent catches it flat-footed but readies a action instead of attacking and reveals itself to the creature.
A successfully surrendered creature its considered helpless and flat footed against the opponent (or opponents) that surrendered it. Opponents of a surrendered creature can reay a coup de grace against it.
A surrendered creature can make a diplomacy or intimidate check to loose the surrendered condition of it and of all his chosen allies, to successful, it must to change the opponent(s) attitude to at least indifferent. A fail in this test activates the readied action of its opponent(s).
A surrendered creature can also make a bluff check, as if a attempt to create a diversion to hide, to get rid of the surrendered condition of it and all its chosen allies.
LOW GUARD
A creature has the low guard condition when:
- It has the surrendered condition and make a hostile action.
- Purposefully puts himself in an obvious self inflicting condition, like jump into a chasm, walk in lava or ignore a weapon pointed in its face and fail to describe plausibly his intentions or actions to do so.
A creature with the low guard condition is considered helpless and flat footed and take damage directly into the vital points.
The Low Guard condition take a lot of GMing judgement and players agreement, that escapes the mechanic scope of D&D 3.x and Pathfinder, but i think it might work. The bypasses conditions for the surrendered condition is a great idea to make more uses of other characters strengths and make very good roleplaying scenes. What do you think?
It's useful to say that this tread is about suggestions of how to make better a certain gaming style, not to judge if this gaming style is right or wrong.
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Cure wounds spell - This spell revitalizes people. Losing vitality is represented by getting tired. Cure Wounds heals any wounds first, and then also revitalizes the target (restores vitality.) If the semantics are what bother you, simply rename the spell Cure Light Wounds - Lesser Revitalize, Cure Moderate Wounds - Revitalize, Cure Serious Wounds - Greater Revitalize, etc.
I think a lot of people posting are missing the point. The point is that certain elements of HP damage break immersion in the fantasy world. I can totally stay immersed when a high level character soaks a dragon's breath weapon and survives. How do they do it? Depends on the character. Maybe they duck behind a bolder, maybe they brace them self behind their shield, maybe they dodge about avoiding the worst of the breath weapon.
This is because: Hit points are an...
Not to mention that Cure Wounds also heal subdue damage, that can be sustained by heat/frozen environments.