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My question is derived from this thread.
As noted in the other thread, the effects from being enlarged are, normally, temporary. Thus, the Strength bonus results in a +1 to stuff that uses Strength, and the Dexterity penalty results in a -1 to stuff that uses Dexterity.
If, on the other hand, enlarge person is made permanent, the Strength bonus actually increases the Strength ability score (STR 14 becomes STR 16, for example). What about the Dexterity penalty?
Astute readers will no doubt quote the sections from the CRB Glossary dealing with "Ability Score Bonuses" and "Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain" and point out that only the "Ability Score Bonuses" section mentions that "bonuses with a duration of greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score" while noting that this is for "bonuses" only, not "penalties". At the same time, people might quote the "[s]ome spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty..." paragraph as evidence that Dexterity penalty remains as though it were Dexterity damage, thus it doesn't actually decrease the Dexterity ability score, all the while overlooking the remaining part of that first sentence that says "...for a limited amount of time".
There are an extremely few number of circumstances in which an Ability penalty is a desired effect. The "Ability Score Damange, Penalty, and Drain" section is written to address the 99.9% of situations in which the negative effect is not desired and will be remedied as soon as the character is out of combat, or shortly thereafter (or perhaps a few days if you have no magic to heal ability damage). This section is written with the express understanding that the effects, regardless of how they originated, would be short-term effects, not permanent.
Because the Dexterity penalty from a permanent enlarge person is a corner-case that is outside the rules that deal with Ability Penalties, we have to move beyond rote reading of the rules. Rather, we have to look at the rules as a whole, understand what we are reading, and correlate what we read to these strange cases that aren't specifically stated. One can't quote the rules and claim "RAW!" because the rules only address ability penalties "for a limited amount of time". There is no "RAW!" for permanent ability penalties.
It doesn't make logical sense that a permanent effect would increase an ability score, while at the same time not decreasing a different ability score; that it merely only grants a negative modifier to stuff that use that particular ability. What is the most logical, and proper way, to adjudicate this situation?
Personally, I would have the Dexterity penalty decrease the actual Dexterity ability score in as much as I would have the Strength bonus increase the actual Strength ability score (STR 13 to STR 15; DEX 15 to DEX 13). This would mean that any feats that an effected character would have that depend on a particular Dexterity score might become inaccessible until that character found a way to boost his Dexterity back to the requisite level.
How would others adjudicate this situation?
What is Paizo's official position?
EDIT: tl;dr. Temporary ability bonuses, when made permanent, actually increase the relevant ability score. Temporary ability penalties, when made permanent, do what?
sounds like an attempt to bend the rules to me. The spell is permanent, you can't fudge the penalties and keep the bonuses.
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Have you seen the FAQ entry dated 10/29/13? The one that says temporary stat modifiers should affect the same things that permanent ones do? The temporary modifiers listed in the CRB are only to make it easier for the GM. Actually, temporary changes should change everything that permanent ones do...
I don't think you quite understand what it is that I am asking.
Temporary bonuses, when made permanent, actually increase the relevant ability score. Temporary penalties, when made permanent, do what?
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Brf is saying that even if the temporary penalty doesn't become "permanent" it is still a permanent temporary penalty.
So whether you call it permanent or temporary, the penalty is the same amount, and affects all the same stuff, as if it were a permanent decrease.
At least, I think that's what he's saying. :)
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Temporary bonuses have same effect as permanent ones do, even if they are not permanent. That is what the FAQ says.
The same effect should apply to penalties.
Again, you are missing what it is that I am asking. I am not asking about comparing the list of effects between a temporary bonus vs. a permanent bonus.
I am asking, specifically, whether or not a permanent ability penalty actually decreases the relevant ability score (much like a permanent bonus actually increases the relevant ability score), or not.
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And we are wondering why this matters so much to you when there is no effective difference between a temporary and permanent penalty.
There is no effective difference between a temporary and permanent bonus either, except that a permanent bonus actually increases the relevant score. There are no rules as to whether or not the ability penalty actually reduces the relevant ability score when made permanent. This is specifically important for the spells enlarge person and reduce person (permanent) and their interaction with feats that require specific ability scores to qualify and use.
I think the question is certainly pertinent, because the rules don't even seem to acknowledge the notion of permanent penalties.
If the concept doesn't exist to begin with, we can't compare it to permanent bonuses.
I will not attempt t0 answer the question because it seems like you want us to quote a rule that you agree does not really exist regarding penalties that are made permanent.
I think I would say that for the duration of the effect the penalty would apply. If Enlarge Person was made permanent and I had a 16 Dexterity to begin with then I would have a 14 Dexterity as long as the spell is in effect on me. If the Permanency was later dispelled and the Enlarge Person was dispelled then the Dexterity would return to 16. Seems simple to me!
Any one that would argue against that would have to provide a legitimate reason why the penalty would not apply. Otherwise we will argue around in circles and never make any progress. It really is not a difficult concept to understand in my opinion.
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I think I would say that for the duration of the effect the penalty would apply. If Enlarge Person was made permanent and I had a 16 Dexterity to begin with then I would have a 14 Dexterity as long as the spell is in effect on me. If the Permanency was later dispelled and the Enlarge Person was dispelled then the Dexterity would return to 16. Seems simple to me!
You wouldn't have a Dexterity of 14 at any time in the process. You'd have a dexterity of 16, with a -1 penalty applied to all appropriate rolls and stats.
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Well then the question is:
If you are suffering ability damage, or an ability penalty, do you lose access to feats that require a certain ability score. e.g. Can you Power Attack if you have an 18 Strength normally, but have taken 6 or more points of ability score damage (say, from poison) or are suffering a penalty (say, from ray of exhaustion).
The FAQ would seem to imply that you do lose access, as temporary things affect you the same way as permanent things.
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The point is that temporary bonuses and penalties actually change the scores, too. Or, if they do not, they have the same exact effect as changing them, so whether they actually change them is moot.
As far as penalties and damage is concerned, no, they do not change the scores. And while this doesn't change the dice results, as you point out, if the Dexterity penalty from a permanent enlarge person actually reduces the Dexterity score, it can have an effect on whether or not that character qualifies for, or can utilize, certain feats.
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Well then the question is:
If you are suffering ability damage, or an ability penalty, do you lose access to feats that require a certain ability score. e.g. Can you Power Attack if you have an 18 Strength normally, but have taken 6 or more points of ability score damage (say, from poison) or are suffering a penalty (say, from ray of exhaustion).
The FAQ would seem to imply that you do lose access, as temporary things affect you the same way as permanent things.
You need to be very careful in your argument. The FAQ is specifically dealing with ability bonuses, not ability penalties or damage. Plus, the FAQ is only emphasizing that temporary bonuses affect all of the same types of dice rolls that permanent bonuses do (or carrying capacity for STR). There is absolutely no implication that temporary bonuses allow you to qualify for feats.
Furthermore, your example is one of the 99.9% of situations for which the rules were written: that being that your character receives a detrimental effect whilst in combat and the effects will wear off quickly or be remedied in a relatively short time after the combat has ended.
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To quote Kazaan (quoting the rules) from the other thread:
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
And then the follow-up:
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Normally, a penalty - like from Enlarge Person - does not actually change the ability score against which it's applied; it only affects the skills and other statistics related to it.
This means a character with an 15 DEX who has Enlarge Person cast on him will take a -1 to his Reflex save, to DEX skills, etc. - but his DEX ability score itself is still 15. This is important because if it actually reduced the score then the character would lose access to feats that required a 15 DEX.
The question then becomes: If you make that penalty permanent, is it simply a permanent reduction in the statistics related to that ability - or does it actually reduce the ability score itself?
[edit]@HangarFlying: Sorry, thought it might help to restate where this all came up, and try and put it in context using some specific examples.
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You wouldn't have a Dexterity of 14 at any time in the process. You'd have a dexterity of 16, with a -1 penalty applied to all appropriate rolls and stats.
Quite literally, the RAW answer is "#REF!" because the rules section to which you are referring only applies to those spells and abilities which are in effect "for a limited amount of time". Enlarge Person having been made permanent, by its very nature, lasts much, much longer than "a limited amount of time".
I personally believe, that in this type of corner-case situation, this permanent ability penalty acts as a de facto ability drain.
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You need to be very careful in your argument. The FAQ is specifically dealing with ability bonuses, not ability penalties or damage. Plus, the FAQ is only emphasizing that temporary bonuses affect all of the same types of dice rolls that permanent bonuses do (or carrying capacity for STR). There is absolutely no implication that temporary bonuses allow you to qualify for feats.
Furthermore, your example is one of the 99.9% of situations for which the rules were written: that being that your character receives a detrimental effect whilst in combat and the effects will wear off quickly or be remedied in a relatively short time after the combat has ended.
Pffft. Careful is for people who care. If a temporary bonus lasts for 24 hours, it suddenly lets you qualify for feats. If a temporary penalty lasts for 24 hours, it doesn't affect you in any meaningful way? It needs clarified. We're on the same team. I simply believe the FAQ implys that temporary penalties affect your feats. That is the way I would lean at the table.
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Given that every munchkin here would argue that a permanent casting of cats grace would open up a dexterity required feat, I'd say the effects of a permanent reduction would apply simmilarly.
That has nothing to do with munchkinism. The rules were kind enough to cover that exact situation. A temporary bonus that becomes permanent does qualify for feats.
Have you seen the FAQ entry dated 10/29/13? The one that says temporary stat modifiers should affect the same things that permanent ones do? The temporary modifiers listed in the CRB are only to make it easier for the GM. Actually, temporary changes should change everything that permanent ones do...
The FAQ only states that for ability score bonuses. It says nothing about penalties. It probably should, and I treat penalties that way.
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Because presumably with a permanent penalty he'll have crossed the eligibility line for a feat that requires a given Dexterity such as Two weapon fighting.
But with a temporary penalty he already has the same thing.
Given that every munchkin here would argue that a permanent casting of cats grace would open up a dexterity required feat
If by every munchkin you mean "everyone who reads the rules, the FAQ, and what the devs specifically have to say on the subject", then sure.
But with a temporary penalty he already has the same thing.
Because presumably with a permanent penalty he'll have crossed the eligibility line for a feat that requires a given Dexterity such as Two weapon fighting.
Not true. I quoted the relevant rule above - ability penalties, which function as ability damage, do not actually reduce the relevant ability score; they reduce everything else related to that score - saving throws, skill checks, etc. - but taking a -2 penalty to your DEX does not result in your actual DEX score changing from 15 to 13.
In this particular case, I'd think of a penalty as merely being a negative bonus to the ability score. Therefore, if it became permanent, your dex score would be permanently adjusted down by two points, potentially losing access to ranged feats, TWF feats, and potentially, Dodge.
That's pretty much what I'd do. Whether or not it's the "RAW" resolution can't be said because I don't think RAW really contemplates this situation.
Ability Damage is treated differently than Drain because it's not permanent, able to be naturally healed, and constant shifting around of your stats due to bouts of Damage and then healing parts of that Damage is annoying at best.
Putting Permanency on a spell which provides Ability Damage means that damage is permanent and no longer temporary, and it isn't going to naturally be healed or expire at a predetermined point. From my perspective, the most sensible solution is to treat it like a permanent effect to your ability score. So were this situation to crop up in my game, I'd say you lose access to the feat.
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I think I can help here.
Permanency does not make a spell permanent in the way you are thinking.
Think of it as more of a Duration Infinite.
The spell is still there and active and in fact can be dispelled. This means that the Dex Penalty is still a "size" Penalty and the Strength Bonus is still a "size" Bonus.
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Brimstone has the right of it. Permanency does not make things permanent, it makes a spell have infinite duration. It remains a temporary effect; with an infinite duration.
That's an excellent point, Drake Brimstone.
This spell makes the duration of certain other spells permanent. You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell.
Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a specific gp value of diamond dust as a material component.
So based on the description of the spell, all it would do would be to grant you a permanent penalty; it would not alter it so that the penalty actually reduced your ability score.
I don't recall ever hearing this question asked, so I don't think it's a frequently asked question.
so the question is; is a penalty reducing an ability score enough to make you un-qualify for feat pre-reqs? The spell doesn't say it's a penalty to dex based rolls, it's a -2 penalty to dexterity.
Belts of Dexterity can be effectively dispelled, too. Drain can be removed via restoration. Conceptually, I don't think there's enough to distinguish a permanent spell.
I don't think there's a real RAW answer for this case. In the grand scheme of things, in my opinion, the difference is the permanence of the effect. If the permanence is due to it being a magic item, a function of drain, or through augmentation of the duration of the base spell through permanency, I'm just going to treat them the same way.
YMMV. *shrug*
To be clear, I don't think saying the permanent enlarge shouldn't disqualify you for the feat is an unreasonable position to have. There's no clear direction, so I'm just going to go with the interpretation that makes the most sense to me.
@Cheapy: That's true, but the FAQ system as described in the sticky is not necessarily just for frequently-asked questions. If a newly-published book happens to contain an unclear rule, then it's fair to FAQ it even if it's the first time the matter has come up on the boards or at your table.
That said, I'd lean toward this being one of the corner cases that the sticky indicates should be left up to the GM. I don't think it's going to come up often enough to merit an official response, and I think there's enough here for a GM to make an informed decision.
I was gona bring up this exact example in the other thread but decided against it because of the whole "if its from a spell its treated as temporary etc" lol.
I think its stated somewhere that an effect has to last for 24 hours + to actually effect your stats as if it were permanent even if it isnt. As was mention ealier if it has been ruled that a magic item can qualify you for a feat then an ability penalty lasting 24+ hours can unqualify you for a feat I would say-you have to take the good with the bad. Guess the player has to keep that in mind if he's borderline feat qualifying and wants to change sizes permanently. Its not as if this would be an efficient strategy to force the effect on an unwilling character by a devious wizard....
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Your temporary ability penalty just became a permanent ability penalty. It DOES NOT CHANGE into a drain. There are no rules for it, thats just the way it is.
1. The FAQ was for bonuses only, not for any penalties, so if thats what confusing you, then disregard it.
2. Ability penalties and ability damage never turn into a ability drain (unless specifically stated, but I can think of no example of this). The notion of that was put up by some players for sheer thought exercise and the idea of a house rule for the sake of role play potential.
3. It is true that most things when they grow bigger gain a bonus to strength and a lower score to dexterity when they grow. The problem with this line of thought is that it's not always true. For example, dragons lose dexterity as they grow older, not necessarily as they grow bigger (This is seen if you compare the relevant tables, they sometimes grow in size without losing any dexterity, and visa versa).
Penalties act as damage ("While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage"). Damage doesn't reduce your stats. Penalties and damage are not bonuses so the FAQ doesn't apply to them, and finally, neither penalties nor damage have any rules about upgrading into a drain.
If anything, the dexterity penalty would go away after 48 hours. " Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged."