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So. I love dragons. I love magic (blasts especially) and I love paladins.so perfect idea for me.
The paladin drag. Disc.
Okay. So my thoughts are human (or aasimar preffrably aasimar-angel blooded) whenever possible.
Levels -2 paladin/8sorc/10 dragon disciple. Idea of course is to make a character good in melee and good at spells (mostly blasts IE quickened empowered intensified burning hands+ maximize rod) ect ect.
Could anyone help me with level progression ? Was thinking sorcecer 5 drag. Disc. 10 paladin 2 sorc. Or should I go paladin before the drag disciple? Also feat suggestions? SPell focus tree and the like are musts though.
Consider 25 pt buy.
Try this:
Aasimar standard (not Angel Blooded I'm afraid because you need Daylight to Qualify for Eldritch Knight)
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 1 (Crossblooded Draconic(gold)/{Orcish[Extra Damage] or Elemental[Turn any damaging spell to fire]})/ Eldritch Knight 1-4/Dragon Disciple 10/ Eldritch Knight 5 - 7)
You'll have
HP 132+[Con mod * 20](10+6+4+6+6+6+6+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+7+6+6+6)
BAB 16 (2+0+7+7)
Fort 12(3+0+4+5)
Ref 5(0+0+2+3)
Will 12(3+2+2+5)
Unfortunately your spellcasting will suffer.
You will Cast spells as a level 14 Sorcerer (7th level spells)
With Magical Knack you can bump your Caster level to 16.
Your best bet is to get Eldritch Knight to level 4 first as it makes you count as a level 4 fighter. With Scion of Humanity you then qualify for Martial Versatility which means "Weapon Focus (Bite)" really means "Weapon Focus (Natural attacks)" So if you ever transform into a dragon you get that +1 bonus to all your natural attacks. Now just take things that complement that, and boom, you become godly in melee. You can gain claw, claw, bite from Troglodite form(Alter self). Once you are able to cast higher level transformations you are able to do much better.
Remember, as a Dragon Disciple your focus isn't on being the most powerful spellcaster, but switch hitting the enemy to death. If they are powerful in melee you fly away and nuke them to death. If they are powerful spell casters you can fly away, cast anti-magic field, then fly back to them and kill them all. You might not have much AC, however, so investing in some form of DR, be it Defending Bone or Stoneskin, is going to work wonders for you.
As a spellcaster you can probably get away with using Blur and Displacement to avoid attacks as opposed to dropping a ton of money into armor and defensive items. Plus these can stack with polymorph if I remember, so your AC in Form of the Dragon might be trash but your displacement or blur or mirror image will keep you alive.
True fact, Amulet of Mighty Fists costs the same as a 2 weapons of the same enchantment level. So, if you have more than 2 natural attacks you are ahead of the curb.
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Thanks for the info. I may look into it later. But I want to keep the pally. As an aside magic items I intend to have eventually. Belt of phy. Perfection head band of int/cha +6. Cloak of res. +5 amuelt mighty fists (either +5 straight or speed) couple of metamagic rods (maximize, daze,quicken) multplies of them. ring of prot +5 ring of wiz. 3-4 couple pearls of power +4 tomes for cha and str. Some wands. Bracers of armor some ioun stones, boots of speed. And odds and ends if anything is left over.
Thanks for the info. I may look into it later. But I want to keep the pally. As an aside magic items I intend to have eventually. Belt of phy. Perfection head band of int/cha +6. Cloak of res. +5 amuelt mighty fists (either +5 straight or speed) couple of metamagic rods (maximize, daze,quicken) multplies of them. ring of prot +5 ring of wiz. 3-4 couple pearls of power +4 tomes for cha and str. Some wands. Bracers of armor some ioun stones, boots of speed. And odds and ends if anything is left over.
You wouldn't give up your 2 levels in Paladin.
Aasimar Standard (not angel born) because Daylight allows you to qualify for EK. You delay your DD levels by 2 levels to get EK 4, then you basically become a natural attack god.Paladin 2
Sorcerer 1
EK 4 (treated as fighter 4)
DD 10
EK 3(7)
The reason to go into EK would be for a BAB bump, it's ok if you are going to use a manufactored weapon. If you are a pure natural attacker then it's not a good idea.
I think you are going to find your blasts to be disappointing. You lose quite a few caster levels. Try Magical Knack instead of Magical Lineage.
If you really want to blast consider a gnome with the Pyromaniac trait as well. Between Magical Knack, Spell Specialization and Pyromaniac you will have +5 caster level to whatever signature fire spell you choose.
Ok, so a possible sample build to 7th level using said gnome -
Paladin 1 (Feat: Spell Focus)
Sorcerer 1 - 3d4+3 Burning Hands
Paladin 2 (Feat: Spell Specialization - Burning Hands) - 5d4+5 Burning Hands
Sorcerer 2/3 (Feat: Intensify Spell)
Dragon Disiple 2 (Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative)
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whats the difference between natural attacks and manufactured weapons?
also, my Idea is to get enough caster levels to have an empowered intensified burning hands (at least, would like to have a few quickened versions) with a maximize rod or 2. I am away from my books atm what caster level would I need for that? (aside from that, with spell focus and Greater+ varisian tattoo I get +3 at least to my DC)
would it be better to do sorc 6. paladin 4, dragon disciple 10? I would rather not get -too- complicated with the build. If I can reach a +30 to hit on my natural attacks (yay for no reductions!) I will be decently happy.
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actually, if i were you i would go with
paladin 2/oracle of lore (haunted curse)1/sorcerer1/EK 4/DD 10
by taking oracle of lore, you gain access to the cleric spell list, extra healing per day, not much mind you, and the best of all you gain cha to dex and reflex saves. basically you will have an insane reflex and you can nuke your dex down to 7 (i wouldnt) and still have max AC in your armor. with celestial armor you can cap the max dex of +8 using your main caster stat as your ac and spells.
you can have a fully functional character with only strength con and cha as positive stats, and thats just silly.
whats the difference between natural attacks and manufactured weapons?
Natural attacks would be using claws and a bite and later wing attacks and a tail if/when you transform into a dragon.
Manufactured weapons are things like swords.
Manufactured weapons get iterative attacks through a high BAB, so if you are looking to use weapons going into EK has its appeal. Natural attacks don't get iteratives.
Now it is possible to go something like longsword/claw/bite instead of claw/claw/bite but your natural attacks take a -5 penalty and only get half str damage.
Since it looks like you want a strong focus on spells I would not worry about manufactured weapons and stick with your natural attacks at low levels and transforming into a dragon at high levels when you want to mix it up in melee.
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ok if you're not looking for "pure" optimization then i would suggest just go with Paladin 2/oracle(lore) 1/Sorcerer 2/DD 10/EK 5. simple build and it lets you get into your dragon disciple asap i would choose the Aasimar variant Angel-Blooded and use these stats
str 18 (16+2)
dex 7
con 14
int 9
wis 10
cha 18 (16+2)
you wont have many skills, and your initiative will be low for the first few levels, but with improved initiative and reflexive trait bonus you will be able to compensate for it.
make sure to go with the eldritch heritage feat line all the way to greater in the orc bloodline. you can get a super high strength score and reach by 17th level.
i would focus on battlefield control spells more then just blasting, but you can do well with a few staple low level spells like scorching ray, burning hands, elemental touch, and burning arc. burning gaze is so much fun to use on mooks.
Since it hasn't been posted, it is useful to start with Oterisks' Guide to the Dragon Disciple.
Beyond that, I have had a great deal of fun with a Dragon Disciple build as you described.
I went Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 10/Paladin 2 in that order, but our game seemed to need me to focus on having caster levels early on. What order you build can be affected by a great many things, but I find party make-up to be the most influencing. If you are the primary arcane caster, you may need to get those Sorcerer levels early. If you have a primary arcane caster already, I'd focus on Paladin first.
It seems most people suggest Paladin 2 to start, then Sor 3, then Dragon Disciple 8 as the primary order of things, and you can finish off the last levels in whichever direction you choose to go.
Beyond that, there are many other class dips beyond what you were asking. It seems you have been getting that type of advice in spades so I'll refrain from rehashing what you already know.
Magical Knack is a must. Magical Lineage is fun as well if you plan on narrowing your magical focus, and it sounds like you are. Spell Perfection at level 15 can really boost your Magical Lineage spell to an insane degree.
I meant, why would I be better of taking a manufactured weapon instead of natural attacks?
You are not better off taking manufactured. It all depends on your build and what you wish to do. Form of the Dragon III can be game changing if you make it a focus, but you run the risk of not having enough casts per day. For DD, I haven't seen one method being drastically better than another. It's a very versatile class.
To illustrate what I did (and because I love gushing about how fun it was), I made a natural attacking DD with the above class make-up. My dragon type was blue, which gave me additional damage for electricity. I took Magical Knack, Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp), and Spell Perfection (Shocking Grasp). Because of this, I could use Quickened Intensified Empowered Shocking Grasp as a level 3 spell slot and then full attack in Form of the Dragon III, getting 6 attacks (7 with haste) and if I successfully hit (which I always did due to my ludicrous strength) the touch spell would get delivered.
This allowed me to solo CR 20 encounters at level 17 if they could take electricity damage. I certainly had other options if they were immune.
how did your gm let you play a paladin with an evil dragon base?
there's nothing in the RAW that says anything about your draconic heritage influencing your alignment...
i posted this recently in another thread but the DD i played was fun and effective (and melee>blasting>everything else); i built this way:
base aasimar
1- pally 1
2- pally 2
3- sorcerer [draconic:gold] 1
4- EK 1
5- EK 2
6- DD 1
7- DD 2
8- DD 3
9- DD 4
10- EK 3
my concept was really for a 'dragon-knight' so i probably would have gone straight EK upto 10, then finished with either taken 3 more DD or pally levels to finish (maybe EK 9/DD 8). it seems (to me) that its not really worth losing another BAB and another caster level for DD 9-10, but if you're concept wants it, go for it.
edit: in my build you only lose 2-3 BAB and end up with caster level 13-15 (both depending on whether last 3 levels are pally or DD).
how did your gm let you play a paladin with an evil dragon base?
What does my great-great-great-great-great-grandfather being evil have to do with me?
Also I chose Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal on this character. My ancestors were quite evil. (and actually part of an interesting story that took elements from Curse of the Crimson Throne's Kazavon).
My ancestors being evil have no real bearing on who I am.
Tieflings can be good aligned Paladins and they are only a single generation removed from evil blood.
how are you hitting up Eldritck Knight so fast? Don't you need to have 3rd level Arcane spells?
sorry, poorly worded question. I meant, why would I be better of taking a manufactured weapon instead of natural attacks?
This is a complicated answer with lots of math behind it. For the sake of simplicity I will use greatsword vs claws and a strength of 18.
Level 1 - Greatsword swing vs claw
2d6+6 for an average of 13
2 claws 2d4+8 for an average of 13
Are you moving and attacking? Use a greatsword. Are you full attacking? Multiple Natural attacks.
There is a lot that mucks up this equation - Using abilities like smite evil, arcane strike, and power attack will shift the preference towards the more numerous natural attacks.
But consider a masterwork greatsword comes way before an amulet of mighty fists, so you will be more accurate with a greatsword. While you get roughly the same number of criticals (assuming full attacks) a greatsword crit hurts much more then a claw hit. Also consider not every attack will be a full attack. This shifts the preference back towards a greatsword.
Then you get iteratives which makes it MORE complicated but the short version is you can only take advantage of iteratives with manufactured weapons. Is it worth it to change? Well, the short answer is still a definate 'maybe?'. Then as you process as a sorcerer you get energy damage on your natural attacks. Then you get form of the dragon so when you polymorph you don't get manufactored weapons anyway.
Then there is how you want to spend your wealth or otherwise earn your gear. Do you want to buy an amulet of mighty fists? Do you want to add a longsword? Forget the amulet and go with a bite and a greatsword?
Having played a paladin / draconic sorcerer I can tell you my style early game. Carry and use a greatsword and be ready to drop it and grow claws for your full smiting attacks. Sadly I no longer play in that campaign but I was still a little baffled by what I wanted my attack style to be at higher levels.
thank Rorek55, is that PFS legal?
another quick question, can you do a cross blooded sorceror, gold dragon/ orc blood lines and then also take Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal for more claws and strength goodness.
Thinking of a level breakdown something like this
Fighter 1
Sorcer 1-3
Fighter 2
Dragon Disciple 1-8
worried about loosing more spell casting, and not Sure taking EK actually would work out for 3 levels and be any better except for base attack
I know Crossblooded slows casting too
was originally thinking angel blooded aasimar as well because of the strength bonus
You also mentioned Dragon Style. It might be nice but realize that you would not get the 1.5x damage portion of it without Feral Combat Training (which is certainly too many feats).
well debating that, not sure i am sold on it outside of saves. Smite doesn't do alot except help you hit( exactly what i am looking for) and there are some things with character background that wouldn't fit a Paladin; I could easily throw out if I wanted to. I am not sure if My build will depend on the extra feats from fighter either, will have to do some checking. That Charisma to hit, for one battle a day is tempting.
Smite also lets your attacks bypass any DR, which could come in handy.
I don't see the benefit of being a an EK and postponing the dragon disciple an extra 2 levels. Am I missing something?
I have some work I need to do first (yay intercession classes) and then I'll explain when I return.
It basically boils down toWith Scion of Humanity you qualify for Human Feats.
Martial Versatility lets any feat that modifies a single attack modify an entire group instead. (WF[Bite] = WF(Natural attacks])
If you take Feral Combat Training (Combat) it applies to a weapon, and therefore a weapon group so all of your Natural attacks just became usable with combat styles.
Now take the dragon style.
Dragon Style adds 1 1/2 your str to your first attack of a round, and Dragon Ferocity adds 1/2 your str to all attacks.
So your first attack does double your str mod in damage, and all of your other attacks do 1 1/2 your strength mod (primary) or 1 your strength mod (secondary).
You do not get iterative attacks with Natural attacks, but instead you get to make all of them in a round as a full. When you transform into a dragon your armor stops working, but magical items work fine so go for Bracers of Armor +X.
Your base form will have Claw Claw Bite from the Claws power x times per day. However, via alter self, and other polymorph spells you get more natural attacks, more strength, possibly size increases, and lots of powers that you can use.
Dragon Disciple Build
Angelblooded Assimar Paladin 2/ Crossblooded Sorceror 3/ Dragon Disciple 8/ Eldritch Knight 2
Starting Stats (20 point build)
Strength: 16
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 16
traits
Wyang Spellhunter: Burning Hands
Magical Knack or Magical Lineage
Feats
1) Skill Focus: knowledge Plains
3) Eldritch Heritage
5) Extend spell
7)Toughness and Empower Spell
9) Burning Spell
11)Improved Eldritch Heritage / Quiken spell
13)Blind fight or Improved Initaive/ ?
14)
15)Spell Perfection
Ending Stats
Strength: 24
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 19
wondering if i am to spell heavy or if I should take feats like improved natural attack and power attack
No need for power attack. Bab is too low IMO for it.
that is what I was thinking
the Str bonuses from abyssal and orc are both inherent bonuses- they specifically will not stack with each other (or with the bonuses from wishes or tomes). the way your bite attack is worded, however, the extra rounds of claws from abyssal will trigger that too. IMHO, drop crossblooded: go draconic bloodline with the abyssal eldritch heritage feats.
What about a sorc 3/paladin 7/DD 10 with magical knack?. You have access to paladin spells 4d6 lay on hands. smite evils. Mercies among other nice things.
Your spellcasting power will be so low that you minus well just go Paladin2/Bard 18.
Sorcerers really need class levels or effective class levels (from PrCs) to be powerful.You could also, if you are worried about healing, just go Sorcerer 2, Paladin 2, Oracle 1 and have everything scaling off Charisma, more spells, and lots of power.
Gish is an melee based arcane spellcaster. Your UMD should be godly, so using Wands shouldn't be a problem for you. Eventually just invest in a ring of regeneration and your healing is covered.
The key of being effective is picking one or two things and doing those things insanely well. If you spread out too much you'll be less effective overall.
the Str bonuses from abyssal and orc are both inherent bonuses- they specifically will not stack with each other (or with the bonuses from wishes or tomes). the way your bite attack is worded, however, the extra rounds of claws from abyssal will trigger that too. IMHO, drop crossblooded: go draconic bloodline with the abyssal eldritch heritage feats.
i didn't think Dragon Disciple would advance both bloodlines, just the dragon one.
so my thinking was to take crossblooded orc for the extra point of damage per die when blasting that should stack with the one point of damage gained from dragon blood line as well, so a fireball or what have will do 6d6+12 damage for exampleEldritch heritage works off of character level so that is how I would get the strength bonus in the first place, not actually from orc. Or am i completely wrong on how Draconic Disciple advances bloodlines?
also not sure once I am done in Dragon Disciple where i would go, EK seems like the most natural fit, because it gives me casting and a base attack almost at every level.
The key of being effective is picking one or two things and doing those things insanely well. If you spread out too much you'll be less effective overall.
Blaster/ Melee since my spells known takes a hit from crossblooded. So some buffing/ debuffing but damage output is the main idea here.
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The reason I was looking at sorc 3/paladin 7 is. simply put. I get LoH, (4d6, meh) access to level 2 paladin spells (I think) better and more smites, MUCH better BaB so melee would be better. (divine grace!)
with magical knack I would still be around 13-15th caster level for my main spells (blasts) so eh. Its a more melee oriented mesh, with access to haste as a buff spell. and form of drag I few times a day + form of drag II 2/day (now, the higher level sorc, DOES get form of Dragon III, which is a big reason to not do this in itself)
You said you were focusing on naturals which means you don't care about BAB - you care about strength.
Enhancement bonuses (belt)
Inherent bonuses (Eldritch Heritage feat chain w/ Abysall Bloodline)
Size Bonuses (Dragon Form)
Untyped (Level + Dragon Disicple)
All of this should push your strength into the lower stratosphere assuming it starts off decentish.
You said you were focusing on naturals which means you don't care about BAB - you care about strength.
Exactly what I was going to say. Iterative attacks lose much of their zeal as they continue, but natural attacks remain at the same bonuses for primary and secondary. As long as you are hitting your targets with your secondary attacks, you don't really need more BAB.
You can EASILY get +26 strength without entirely too much effort using the methods described. If you start at 18, we're talking 44 strength.
18 start
+6 Enhancement (belt)
+6 Inherent (Abyssal bloodline)
+10 Size (Form of the Dragon III)
+4 Untyped (Dragon Disciple levels)
You can even get other bonus types if you try to optimize for strength (Rage being a good place to start).
With an Amulet of Natural Attack + 5, and a moderate BAB (~14), you essentially won't miss an AC of 42 with primary attacks.
Certainly you can get a better result if you tried to optimize your BAB as well, but this isn't a bad place to be. If you are running a Pathfinder campaign, I doubt you'll ever miss a target. So I personally don't think worrying about the BAB is a huge concern.
Also, if you choose the feats that Taku Ooka Nin suggested above, you will be doing a minimum of 273 damage if all of your attacks hit while hasted (which is common) on a full round attack.
so what you are saying is human Fighter 4, Sorcerer 1 Dragon Disciple 8, might be the best way to go as far as getting the versatility of weapon focus to all your natural attacks.
