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Oterisk's Guide to the Dragon Disciple


Advice

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Here is a look at my semi-secret project. It has kept me sane while I wait for the results from the RPG Superstar. Please leave comments below, because I know it can still be better. I also promise to respond to everyone but it will take time, especially tonight because I am running off to go do some gaming.

Mike Myers wrote:
Talk amongst yourselves... I'll give you a topic.

Click on this for access to the guide.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well this was unexpected.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm...spontaneous casting magus going into DD...


Cheapy wrote:
Hmm...spontaneous casting magus going into DD...

They can do that? Oh, I forgot the Magus entirely... oops. Will fix in a few hours.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Not with official Paizo stuff.


for the alchemist dip, you might want to mention vivisectionist, as you sometimes go to melee anyway, sneak attack might be better than bombs.

otherwise, pretty good and complete guide, but it doesn't make me want to play one (don't worry, that says nothing about the quality of the guide, I like my classes straight from 1 to 20). Problem: spellcasting reduction is heavy and your melee will never be good, or do you really want to go into melee with some demon with that guy?

And wings, it's nice, but a witch has the fly hex, there are tons of items or spells that let you fly.
However it has a nice flavour.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Richard Leonhart wrote:

for the alchemist dip, you might want to mention vivisectionist, as you sometimes go to melee anyway, sneak attack might be better than bombs.

otherwise, pretty good and complete guide, but it doesn't make me want to play one (don't worry, that says nothing about the quality of the guide, I like my classes straight from 1 to 20). Problem: spellcasting reduction is heavy and your melee will never be good, or do you really want to go into melee with some demon with that guy?

And wings, it's nice, but a witch has the fly hex, there are tons of items or spells that let you fly.
However it has a nice flavour.

And yet you can make a fairly simple Sorcerer who, at 20th level, has 55 strength under their own power with only a single non-free action spent buffing. 55 strength with 3 primary natural attacks and 2 secondary. Even at a BAB of +12, that's gonna hurt a bit (better to-hit and damage than the Tarrasque, if only by a little bit). Even without that buff going, it's 45 strength with 3 primary natural attacks, which still hurts quite a bit.

(Sorc 10/DD8/Barb 2, take Eldritch Bloodline Feats for either Abyssal or Orc; Defensive capabilities probably lacking somewhat)


Magus added, not a whole lot of info, just discouraged people from using it as a "dip".

Richard Leonhart wrote:

for the alchemist dip, you might want to mention vivisectionist, as you sometimes go to melee anyway, sneak attack might be better than bombs.

otherwise, pretty good and complete guide, but it doesn't make me want to play one (don't worry, that says nothing about the quality of the guide, I like my classes straight from 1 to 20). Problem: spellcasting reduction is heavy and your melee will never be good, or do you really want to go into melee with some demon with that guy?

And wings, it's nice, but a witch has the fly hex, there are tons of items or spells that let you fly.
However it has a nice flavour.

Mentioned the Vivisectionist, thanks.

Melee a demon... If it is tactically appropriate, then yes. Especially if I picked Paladin as a dip. Otherwise, I would pull out my rod of piercing and try something else. It just depends. Being a Dragon Disciple is not for the faint of heart, if you can't handle it, then don't follow the path. :)

Witches and other spells allow you to gain the flight ability. The Wings are permanent until you dismiss them. That's why I gave them the blue. I agree: Great flavor.


StabbittyDoom wrote:


And yet you can make a fairly simple Sorcerer who, at 20th level, has 55 strength under their own power with only a single non-free action spent buffing. 55 strength with 3 primary natural attacks and 2 secondary. Even at a BAB of +12, that's gonna hurt a bit (better to-hit and damage than the Tarrasque, if only by a little bit). Even without that buff going, it's 45 strength with 3 primary natural attacks, which still hurts quite a bit.

(Sorc 10/DD8/Barb 2, take Eldritch Bloodline Feats for either Abyssal or Orc; Defensive capabilities probably lacking somewhat)

I think that is a +13 BAB if I'm not mistaken. Yup, that would hurt the Defense. Its a +35 to hit. +32 with Power Attack, that's not counting any amulets of mighty fists or magic fangs. Dimensional Dervish could make you full attack whenever you wanted to. It still isn't quite up to the damage potential of other classes, but it isn't anything to sneeze at either.

Andoran

Oterisk wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:


And yet you can make a fairly simple Sorcerer who, at 20th level, has 55 strength under their own power with only a single non-free action spent buffing. 55 strength with 3 primary natural attacks and 2 secondary. Even at a BAB of +12, that's gonna hurt a bit (better to-hit and damage than the Tarrasque, if only by a little bit). Even without that buff going, it's 45 strength with 3 primary natural attacks, which still hurts quite a bit.

(Sorc 10/DD8/Barb 2, take Eldritch Bloodline Feats for either Abyssal or Orc; Defensive capabilities probably lacking somewhat)

I think that is a +13 BAB if I'm not mistaken. Yup, that would hurt the Defense. Its a +35 to hit. +32 with Power Attack, that's not counting any amulets of mighty fists or magic fangs. Dimensional Dervish could make you full attack whenever you wanted to. It still isn't quite up to the damage potential of other classes, but it isn't anything to sneeze at either.

Sorry, noticed that later and decided not to bother editing. Also, assuming you get a +5 amulet of mighty fists (and with that build, why wouldn't you?) you have a to-hit of 40/38 and a damage mod of +38 (bite/tail), +27 (Claws), +16 (Wings), or (with power attack) a to-hit of 36/34 for a damage mod of +50 (bite/tail), +35 (claws), +20 (wings). Seeing as how there is no reliance on the lower-end of your to-hit scale, I'm pretty sure this would stack up at least somewhat well with the fighter (though definitely not beat them). (Note that I also forgot that Form of the Dragon III gives the tail slap as well for 2 natural attacks at 1.5*, two at 1.0* and two at 0.5*.)

Note that the draconic bloodline gives you +4 natural armor, dragon disciple gives you +3, the Form of the Dragon III spell gives +8 and other (normal) buffs give +8 (armor), +5 (deflection), +5 (amulet of natural armor). This is 40 AC (assuming no dex mod or other tricks). Touch spells would be terrifying, but at least brilliant energy isn't a problem. To be fair, I'm not sure if the Dragon Resistances ability stacks with the natural armor granted by Form of the Dragon III. The Dragon Disciple bonus explicitly stacks, so this would leave you at 36, which is a bit low.

Of course, the main advantage is that you're competent in both melee and casting. You can use melee against casters, and casting against melee, etc.

Shadow Lodge

I think you underrated the blinsense.. especially on someone that has both the ability to pick up blindfight as a bonus feat and to cast truestrike.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

I think you underrated the blinsense.. especially on someone that has both the ability to pick up blindfight as a bonus feat and to cast truestrike.

I went with orange because even with Blindfight, you are still at a 25% miss chance, and they have a 50% miss chance if they can locate your square. Well, if you move around and have a decent stealth score, it might not be as bad as Orange. I will fix it to green.


StabbittyDoom wrote:


Much numbers...

Yeah, 6 attacks is pretty good. With a +15 to NA, it can help the Armor class quite a bit. There is a few questions on whether or not it would stack with various items, but without getting into that myself, you can have a reasonable armor class as well. I'm with you man, I think the DD is fun, and can be effective.


Equipment choices are revised and expanded. I appreciate if anyone can find any good items I may have missed, there are quite a lot to go through.


I would like to see a priority order on the abilites for the different build types.

Say for example; if you are making you switch hitter build with magic for the melee opponents and melee for the magic opponents, how high does you charisma need to be in relation to the physical stats?


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

I would like to see a priority order on th abilites for the different build types.

Say for example; if you are making you switch hitter build with magic for the melee opponents and melee for the magic opponents, how high does you charisma need to be in relation to the physical stats?

Ah, I had meant to do that. I just forgot. I appreciate the reminder though.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

This thread makes me happy. DD is one of my favourite prestige classes, in terms of flavour and coolness.


I've always like the concept also.

(I think I liked the 3.x version better though because it made you permanently a half dragon not just shapechanged some of the time.)

I haven't been able to run one yet though because of what everyone else was running. But I'm think I will next time. Some one else can change if needed.


To see if I am understanding some of what was written correctly.

If I take a cross blooded sorcerer Draconic and say Elemental;

I would not need to take Form of the Dragon I and II as my free spells since I will get the power anyway as the Dragon Disciple. (Although I would only have it twice a day instead of 2+ casting slots.) So I could use those 2 to take spells on the Elemental list without sacrificing much.

I would not need to take Dragon Breath and Wings at 9th and 15th since I will get the power anyway as the Dragon Disciple. (Although only one breath weapon a day and the wings will be limited to 60' speed.) So I could use those 2 to take powers on the Elemental list without sacrificing much.

Then I could take eldritch heritage Abyssal at 3rd to get more time with claws.

Is that correct and sensible?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

One thing that should be noted. Spellcasting in Dragon form means doing something with your spell components bag, unless you take Eschew Materials, or are a sorcerer.


Zonto wrote:
This thread makes me happy. DD is one of my favourite prestige classes, in terms of flavour and coolness.

It has always been one of my favorites too, and so many people seemed to ask questions about it that I figured a guide would be useful to some. I'm glad to see other Dragon Disciple Enthusiasts out there.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:

To see if I am understanding some of what was written correctly.

If I take a cross blooded sorcerer Draconic and say Elemental;

I would not need to take Form of the Dragon I and II as my free spells since I will get the power anyway as the Dragon Disciple. (Although I would only have it twice a day instead of 2+ casting slots.) So I could use those 2 to take spells on the Elemental list without sacrificing much.

I would not need to take Dragon Breath and Wings at 9th and 15th since I will get the power anyway as the Dragon Disciple. (Although only one breath weapon a day and the wings will be limited to 60' speed.) So I could use those 2 to take powers on the Elemental list without sacrificing much.

Then I could take eldritch heritage Abyssal at 3rd to get more time with claws.

Is that correct and sensible?

I believe you are correct and sensible in more ways than one. The crossblooded sorcerer is a pretty good bet if you go Dragon Disciple. There are lots of advantages, and it mitigates the disadvantages pretty well, excepting the -2 to Will saves.

Regarding your previous statement, I first started to love the Dragon Disciple in 3.x too. But my group never did 3.x, we jumped directly from Advanced to Pathfinder. Mostly because we got some good jobs and could finally afford new books.


LazarX wrote:
One thing that should be noted. Spellcasting in Dragon form means doing something with your spell components bag, unless you take Eschew Materials, or are a sorcerer.

Good to note: thanks for the heads up. It really should be there.

...

There, now it is.


Great stuff, man.

Grand Lodge

What about Arcane(Sage)/Dragon cross-bloodline, then pop Eldridge heritage for your abyssal/orc bonuses(both are good, its a hard toss up, but I think abyssal wins on the awesome summoning ability, and saves some feats and allows you to summon the highest creature on your list and still have more than one, saving feats). It's not a giant plus, but it bumps your DC/spells per day slightly. Also I read in your guide that you get the benefit of both blood types, how so? I am not seeing how you would get both I guess. Thank you.


So you can advance 3 bloodlines?

Say a Crossblooded Draconic/Abyssal and Take Eldritch Heritage for Orc bloodline.

Then advance all 3 via DD? You‘ d still need improved eldritch heritage and greater wouldn't you? And an Order of the Warrior or Lion Gendarme is probably a great one level dip.
Mount
Challenge w/dr or dodge bonus
4skill points
All armor and weapons
Better social skills


I'm working on Gendarme ( power attack instead of tactician), order of the dragon.
Crossblooded Draconic/ Abyssal bloodline Sorcerer 9, Orc Eldritch Heritage
Dragon Disciple 10

Nets you
8th level spells
Start Str 20(+Belt,4DD,6 Orc, 6 Abyssal, 5 Manual of Str, 1 from level) =48 str by 20.

BAB (from classes) 12+ 19 str to hit +Permenency GMF= 36/31
Using Bite/Claw/Claw that's 36/31/31 full attack on what is essentially a full caster.


Twigs wrote:
Great stuff, man.

Thanks!


Worldbuilder wrote:
What about Arcane(Sage)/Dragon cross-bloodline, then pop Eldridge heritage for your abyssal/orc bonuses(both are good, its a hard toss up, but I think abyssal wins on the awesome summoning ability, and saves some feats and allows you to summon the highest creature on your list and still have more than one, saving feats). It's not a giant plus, but it bumps your DC/spells per day slightly. Also I read in your guide that you get the benefit of both blood types, how so? I am not seeing how you would get both I guess. Thank you.

I did not include the wildblooded Archetype because, well, laziness I suppose. I quickly took a look at the chart on d20pfsrd, and saw that they seemed to replace some of the same abilities and skipped it. Upon further research, it does seem that they could work, so I will add the wildblooded bloodlines later.

Yes, I think Orc and Abyssal are both great choices for EH. Crossblooded is still a good option, but not a necessary one.

This line is where I get the advancement of both bloodlines:

prd wrote:
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline.

It may not be RAI, but it is RAW from what I can gather. And since you still pay the penalties for your archetype as you level, I don't think it is game breaking to allow this to happen.

You're welcome!


STR Ranger wrote:

I'm working on Gendarme ( power attack instead of tactician), order of the dragon.

Crossblooded Draconic/ Abyssal bloodline Sorcerer 9, Orc Eldritch Heritage
Dragon Disciple 10

Nets you
8th level spells
Start Str 20(+Belt,4DD,6 Orc, 6 Abyssal, 5 Manual of Str, 1 from level) =48 str by 20.

BAB (from classes) 12+ 19 str to hit +Permenency GMF= 36/31
Using Bite/Claw/Claw that's 36/31/31 full attack on what is essentially a full caster.

The one dip in Cavalier isn't a bad option, that's true. The EH feats are based on character level, not class level, so DD would not advance them.

However some GM's might have a problem with you getting the +6 from Orc and Abyssal bloodlines. Since the boost from Str through the Orc and Abyssal bloodlines is an Inherent bonus, and because it comes from the same source, these by RAW should not stack. I wouldn't have a problem with it, because you would be heavily I do believe a case can be made from the RAW that you can add the Inherent bonuses from the Manual of Str because it comes from a separate source and its a friggin' 9th level spell, man! Let it do its thing!

Oh, and your math is a little off. If all your bonuses added up it would be 20+6belt+6orc+6abyssal+5level+5manual+4DD= 52. And then you would be able to cast Form of the Dragon III and get an additional size bonus to Str for a 62. But like I said earlier, it could be an issue getting that additional +6 from the bloodline.


Wildblooded Bloodlines added. If anyone has other advice on how to make my guide more complete, I would love...

Johnny 5 wrote:
More Input!


Oterisk wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

I'm working on Gendarme ( power attack instead of tactician), order of the dragon.

Crossblooded Draconic/ Abyssal bloodline Sorcerer 9, Orc Eldritch Heritage
Dragon Disciple 10

Nets you
8th level spells
Start Str 20(+Belt,4DD,6 Orc, 6 Abyssal, 5 Manual of Str, 1 from level) =48 str by 20.

BAB (from classes) 12+ 19 str to hit +Permenency GMF= 36/31
Using Bite/Claw/Claw that's 36/31/31 full attack on what is essentially a full caster.

The one dip in Cavalier isn't a bad option, that's true. The EH feats are based on character level, not class level, so DD would not advance them.

However some GM's might have a problem with you getting the +6 from Orc and Abyssal bloodlines. Since the boost from Str through the Orc and Abyssal bloodlines is an Inherent bonus, and because it comes from the same source, these by RAW should not stack. I wouldn't have a problem with it, because you would be heavily I do believe a case can be made from the RAW that you can add the Inherent bonuses from the Manual of Str because it comes from a separate source and its a friggin' 9th level spell, man! Let it do its thing!

Oh, and your math is a little off. If all your bonuses added up it would be 20+6belt+6orc+6abyssal+5level+5manual+4DD= 52. And then you would be able to cast Form of the Dragon III and get an additional size bonus to Str for a 62. But like I said earlier, it could be an issue getting that additional +6 from the bloodline.

Math wasn't off. I was only adding 1 from leveling because I was gonna put the other 4 on Cha. 36/31/31 is a decent unbuffed attack routine already and i felt anymore was overkill. Therest goes to Cha to make you a decent caster. This build is probably a polymorph build. I'llflesh it out and post later.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

that's an interesting guide. i like your builds- in the last campaign i ran i actually introduced a two feat progression that was basically just a very slightly modified EH/IEH[Abyssal] but flavored as being draconic (specifically for use with DD).

unfortunately, i do think you've made an error in several places (one which you, yourself, mentioned a couple posts ago): the bonus from the abyssal/orc bloodline is an inherent bonus and so shouldn't stack with the bonus from a tome. as you said, a generous GM might allow it but i think they gave that bonus the inherent type on purpose so that you couldn't get your STR quite so high.

on the whole, though, good guide- pally/gold DD FTW!


nate lange wrote:

that's an interesting guide. i like your builds- in the last campaign i ran i actually introduced a two feat progression that was basically just a very slightly modified EH/IEH[Abyssal] but flavored as being draconic (specifically for use with DD).

unfortunately, i do think you've made an error in several places (one which you, yourself, mentioned a couple posts ago): the bonus from the abyssal/orc bloodline is an inherent bonus and so shouldn't stack with the bonus from a tome. as you said, a generous GM might allow it but i think they gave that bonus the inherent type on purpose so that you couldn't get your STR quite so high.

on the whole, though, good guide- pally/gold DD FTW!

It is my assumption (I will admit) that inherent bonuses are superior to many other bonuses and are like one of the more superior bonuses in the game, the dodge bonus. I assume this because the inherent bonus is one of the harder bonuses to get. Now the Dodge bonus allows bonuses to stack as long as they are not from the same source, hence why I told STR Ranger that the bonus from the book and the bonus from the feats would likely stack.

The other reason why I interpret it this way is because even with this build, it is quite likely that he would be outperformed by many classes in the melee department even if they did stack. In other words, if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

As far as individual GM's go, I would recommend allowing it if the rest of the party is optimized, and not allowing it if they are not. Preserving balance is a good idea.


STR Ranger wrote:


Math wasn't off. I was only adding 1 from leveling because I was gonna put the other 4 on Cha. 36/31/31 is a decent unbuffed attack routine already and i felt anymore was overkill. Therest goes to Cha to make you a decent caster. This build is probably a polymorph build. I'llflesh it out and post later.

Quite right!

I will look forward to seeing your build. And since this thread will likely be perused by future DD enthusiasts, any other builds posted here would also be welcome. I might even post mine...

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Oterisk wrote:
nate lange wrote:

that's an interesting guide. i like your builds- in the last campaign i ran i actually introduced a two feat progression that was basically just a very slightly modified EH/IEH[Abyssal] but flavored as being draconic (specifically for use with DD).

unfortunately, i do think you've made an error in several places (one which you, yourself, mentioned a couple posts ago): the bonus from the abyssal/orc bloodline is an inherent bonus and so shouldn't stack with the bonus from a tome. as you said, a generous GM might allow it but i think they gave that bonus the inherent type on purpose so that you couldn't get your STR quite so high.

on the whole, though, good guide- pally/gold DD FTW!

It is my assumption (I will admit) that inherent bonuses are superior to many other bonuses and are like one of the more superior bonuses in the game, the dodge bonus. I assume this because the inherent bonus is one of the harder bonuses to get. Now the Dodge bonus allows bonuses to stack as long as they are not from the same source, hence why I told STR Ranger that the bonus from the book and the bonus from the feats would likely stack.

The other reason why I interpret it this way is because even with this build, it is quite likely that he would be outperformed by many classes in the melee department even if they did stack. In other words, if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

As far as individual GM's go, I would recommend allowing it if the rest of the party is optimized, and not allowing it if they are not. Preserving balance is a good idea.

By this ruling I could get a 20th level character to 70 Str under their own power, which is enough to just barely lift a launch-mass space shuttle off the ground, or lift 3 launch-mass 747s and run away with them (due in part to the fact that they are huge size due to the polymorph effect that gives them the last +10).

The book explicitly lists what stacks with itself: Dodge, circumstance and untyped. Dodge is the only one that stacks without qualification, circumstance is listed as "most stack", and untyped only stacks if a different source.

Since Inherent is not on that list, and nothing says otherwise, they do not stack.


StabbittyDoom wrote:


By this ruling I could get a 20th level character to 70 Str under their own power, which is enough to just barely lift a launch-mass space shuttle off the ground, or lift 3 launch-mass 747s and run away with them (due in part to the fact that they are huge size due to the polymorph effect that gives them the last +10).

The book explicitly lists what stacks with itself: Dodge, circumstance and untyped. Dodge is the only one that stacks without qualification, circumstance is listed as "most stack", and untyped only stacks if a different source.

Since Inherent is not on that list, and nothing says otherwise, they do not stack.

Real world comparisons have no bearing on fantasy games.

The reasoning you are referring to is also the same that say that a GM has full rights to refuse it. You do. Fantastic. It is just the way I would run it. Since I am not even a GM, it doesn't matter.

I should, however, not assume as much in my guide and I will change it. Thank you for your concern.

Andoran

Oterisk wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:


By this ruling I could get a 20th level character to 70 Str under their own power, which is enough to just barely lift a launch-mass space shuttle off the ground, or lift 3 launch-mass 747s and run away with them (due in part to the fact that they are huge size due to the polymorph effect that gives them the last +10).

The book explicitly lists what stacks with itself: Dodge, circumstance and untyped. Dodge is the only one that stacks without qualification, circumstance is listed as "most stack", and untyped only stacks if a different source.

Since Inherent is not on that list, and nothing says otherwise, they do not stack.

Real world comparisons have no bearing on fantasy games.

The reasoning you are referring to is also the same that say that a GM has full rights to refuse it. You do. Fantastic. It is just the way I would run it. Since I am not even a GM, it doesn't matter.

I should, however, not assume as much in my guide and I will change it. Thank you for your concern.

Making inherent bonuses stack would be a house-rule. Guides like this should always be written under the assumption of core rules (or, at most, accepted RAI). It is not RAW that inherent stacks, and I do not believe it to be RAI that it stacks. This is the primary source of my concern (the other stuff is just there for dramatic effect).

And yes, such comparisons to real-world quantities do not necessarily make sense in the fantasy world, so here's another comparison: Without that house rule, the character only has 59 strength. That's a +11 difference. That's not minor at all. In fact, with sticking to only sorc and DD that character goes from 51 to 62. Either way the mod goes up by +6, which is the same as the difference between 7 strength and 18 strength (or in other words, the difference between Puny McWeakSauce and a Mr Universe candidate). There's your more grounded comparison.


Oterisk wrote:

Wildblooded Bloodlines added. If anyone has other advice on how to make my guide more complete, I would love...

Johnny 5 wrote:
More Input!

I believe you missed the Primal(Elemental) Wildblooded bloodline. I think it has GREAT synergy with draconic blasters and is easily justifiable fluff-wise.

Beyond that, I'd take another look at the Bonded Item for the Arcane Bloodline. A Weapon not only starts at masterwork, but grants you the feats for the purpose of crafting it, meaning that your sorcerer can add enhancements to his weapon at half price! Depending on your game, GM and cashflow, you can boost your to-hit and damage significantly.


StabbittyDoom wrote:


Making inherent bonuses stack would be a house-rule. Guides like this should always be written under the assumption of core rules (or, at most, accepted RAI). It is not RAW that inherent stacks, and I do not believe it to be RAI that it stacks. This is the primary source of my concern (the other stuff is just there for dramatic effect).

And yes, such comparisons to real-world quantities do not necessarily make sense in the fantasy world, so here's another comparison: Without that house rule, the character only has 59 strength. That's a +11 difference. That's not minor at all. In fact, with sticking to only sorc and DD that character goes from 51 to 62. Either way the mod goes up by +6, which is the same as the difference between 7 strength and 18 strength (or in other words, the difference between Puny McWeakSauce and a Mr Universe candidate). There's your more grounded comparison.

I agree with you, but you must not have looked at my reasoning. I said that Inherent bonuses should not stack if they come from the same source, like from the orc and abyssal bloodlines. Thus the difference is only a +5 from the book and much less impressive.

My intent is to change the document regardless, but due to some trouble with the router at home, things have been delayed.


Twigs wrote:
Oterisk wrote:

Wildblooded Bloodlines added. If anyone has other advice on how to make my guide more complete, I would love...

Johnny 5 wrote:
More Input!

I believe you missed the Primal(Elemental) Wildblooded bloodline. I think it has GREAT synergy with draconic blasters and is easily justifiable fluff-wise.

Beyond that, I'd take another look at the Bonded Item for the Arcane Bloodline. A Weapon not only starts at masterwork, but grants you the feats for the purpose of crafting it, meaning that your sorcerer can add enhancements to his weapon at half price! Depending on your game, GM and cashflow, you can boost your to-hit and damage significantly.

That is an interesting point. I still think that natural weapons are the way to go for a DD, but a solid back up weapon is a fine idea. After all, we can't always turn into a huge dragon when we need to lay down the smack. Sometimes we just don't feel like demolishing the castle, we have done it so often, it just doesn't bring pleasure like it once did.


In regards to the arcane bond ability, if you went with amulet instead of weapon, it would open the AMF to half cost construction as well as to adding other effects to the amulet without needing the crafting feat.

Oterisk, would you offer your advice on my first DD?
I have the opportunity to build a lizardfolk DD (racial= 2 claws 1d4, bite 1d4, +5 NA, swim 15', +4 acrobatics, and Hold breath sq; +2 st/+2 con/-2 int).
I'll be starting at 7th lvl, with 17,16,15,15,14,14 for stats before racial. 4d6, reroll 1's. Yes, I think he's crazy to give these numbers, too.
What would you recommend for build?
I want to go martial/sorcerer, aiming for melee primary, with theme spells.
DD looks like it can handle some of those touch spells arcanes usually avoid and there must be some scaly themed spells.
GM issued me a +1 mithril chain shirt when he thought I was going straight fighter, but he will probably allow me to trade for a similar value item.
Otherwise only 1,750 gp.

Other players are buffing archer bard, cleric, barbarian, and rogue.
The last three are new to Pathfinder.
I'm aiming to roleplay a sort of elder brother/shaman to the Lizardfolk tribe I'm from/representing.


And of course, don't forget the wonderful ring of wizardry!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
GM Twigs wrote:
And of course, don't forget the wonderful ring of wizardry!

I really don't see this much as a ring that sorcerers would need given their greater number and more flexible spell slots compared to wizards.


LazarX wrote:
GM Twigs wrote:
And of course, don't forget the wonderful ring of wizardry!
I really don't see this much as a ring that sorcerers would need given their greater number and more flexible spell slots compared to wizards.

Don't turn down extra spells

Grand Lodge

Oterisk wrote:
Worldbuilder wrote:
What about Arcane(Sage)/Dragon cross-bloodline, then pop Eldridge heritage for your abyssal/orc bonuses(both are good, its a hard toss up, but I think abyssal wins on the awesome summoning ability, and saves some feats and allows you to summon the highest creature on your list and still have more than one, saving feats). It's not a giant plus, but it bumps your DC/spells per day slightly. Also I read in your guide that you get the benefit of both blood types, how so? I am not seeing how you would get both I guess. Thank you.

I did not include the wildblooded Archetype because, well, laziness I suppose. I quickly took a look at the chart on d20pfsrd, and saw that they seemed to replace some of the same abilities and skipped it. Upon further research, it does seem that they could work, so I will add the wildblooded bloodlines later.

Yes, I think Orc and Abyssal are both great choices for EH. Crossblooded is still a good option, but not a necessary one.

This line is where I get the advancement of both bloodlines:

prd wrote:
A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline.

It may not be RAI, but it is RAW from what I can gather. And since you still pay the penalties for your archetype as you level, I don't think it is game breaking to allow this to happen.

You're welcome!

Yes, it is RAW, the problem with it is DD came out before crossblooded, so it might not be RAI. I guess its just an issue I would take up with a DM on an individual basis. Thanks.


Cornielius wrote:

In regards to the arcane bond ability, if you went with amulet instead of weapon, it would open the AMF to half cost construction as well as to adding other effects to the amulet without needing the crafting feat.

Oterisk, would you offer your advice on my first DD?
I have the opportunity to build a lizardfolk DD (racial= 2 claws 1d4, bite 1d4, +5 NA, swim 15', +4 acrobatics, and Hold breath sq; +2 st/+2 con/-2 int).
I'll be starting at 7th lvl, with 17,16,15,15,14,14 for stats before racial. 4d6, reroll 1's. Yes, I think he's crazy to give these numbers, too.
What would you recommend for build?
I want to go martial/sorcerer, aiming for melee primary, with theme spells.
DD looks like it can handle some of those touch spells arcanes usually avoid and there must be some scaly themed spells.
GM issued me a +1 mithril chain shirt when he thought I was going straight fighter, but he will probably allow me to trade for a similar value item.
Otherwise only 1,750 gp.

Other players are buffing archer bard, cleric, barbarian, and rogue.
The last three are new to Pathfinder.
I'm aiming to roleplay a sort of elder brother/shaman to the Lizardfolk tribe I'm from/representing.

Sorry for the delay, I am usually really busy on weekends.

Well, a Lizard folk DD... Sounds cool. The Racial bonuses you are getting are pretty awesome. Since you have many people in your group including a archer bard, and you don't have a full caster on the arcane side, and you seem to be lacking in WBL (which is how I could see a GM justifying statistics like those) I would go with something like this:

Spoiler:

Str 16+2Race+2DD
Dex 14
Con 15+2Race
Int 15
Wis 14
Cha 17+1level

Crossblooded Green (or black) Draconic/Abyssal Sorcerer 4 / Guide Ranger 1 / Dragon Disciple 2

Rogue-friend Feats:
1Skill Focus: Intimidate
3Intimidating Prowess
5Weapon Focus: Claws (or bite)
7Bloodline- Improved Initiative
7Dazzling Display

Get your Rogue to take Shatter Defenses, intimidate with standard actions at the beginning of combat, watch them sneak attack all day long and feel satisfied that you did your part. A level of Thug Rogue actually might be fun to make them all run!

or

Beast Feats:
1Improved Natural Attack (bite)
3Weapon focus (bite)
5Power Attack
7Bloodline- Cleave
7Cleaving Finish

After this pick up Noxious bite at level 9 for some major fun, nothing like making them roll saves every time you bite someone. After this, go with the Dimensional Dervish line. Cleave whenever you have to move and try to position yourself so you can hit other bad guys if you take them down. The more bitings the better.

Since you start at a higher level, you don't have to worry about the build all the way through, so just pick the feats that work best for your concept.

I really don't think you can go wrong with this character with pretty much any build, because of your high stats, you don't have to worry about too many weaknesses. Stay away from the Darkness/blindsense tricks, because your rogue will hate people getting concealment, cloud spells will hurt your archer. I would pick up some blasting spells. Acid Arrow is good, Scorching Ray is good, Magic Missle is decent too.

If you need to, go with the feat Sorcerous Bloodstrike so that you can use your Breath Weapon more often. I suggested Acid because Green and Black dragons are thematic for swamps and Acid is a good damage type, works well against regenerating creatures and not a whole lot of creatures have immunities to it. If you would rather go fire, that is not a bad option too, because the blasting spells are better for it.

Touch spells would not be too bad for you but you might find that one standard action to touch is not going to be as impressive at lower levels. Higher level spells would be good as well. Spells are important, but there are better guides out there for spells than mine, feel free to look them up.

As far as items go, the Mithril Chain Shirt isn't bad. It is a short term item for you though. There isn't much under 2000 I would trade for, so I might take it for now, let other people buff you in combat, and sell or trade it later for something good.


Rings of Wizardry are not terrible things, I agree. But they also should be not something you hunt for. I will put them on the list, but they will be orange.


Worldbuilder wrote:

Yes, it is RAW, the problem with it is DD came out before crossblooded, so it might not be RAI. I guess its just an issue I would take up with a DM on an individual basis. Thanks.

I wouldn't make it an issue unless your GM does. That's what I usually do with RAW things, unless it is ridiculously powerful, which this is not. Sure, it saves you a couple feats, but it still penalizes your spells known and your will saves. Any nice ability that comes with those kind of drawbacks doesn't need a whole lot of justification. Just do it and let the cards fall where they may.

If my GM insisted on not allowing it, I would ask to get the penalties of the Crossblooded archetype mitigated during my DD levels to compensate. Since the Will save penalty would be hard to do, I would suggest giving me more spells known when I leveled as a DD. Then let the GM decide.


Looks great.
I think the bard was planning an intimidate build, so I'll talk to him.
If he wants to combo, I'll go with the first build.
I'll go with the beast build if he's worried about overlap.
Thanks

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