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I'm actually of the opinion that opponents that run away before they're killed is super important for my sense of immersion... I'd go so far as to say I hate it when a presumably smart opponent with any sense of self preservation at all can't realize when he's overmatched and beat a hasty retreat.
Most of what I'm fighting are not samurai... There is no Fighting everything to the death code of honor thing for them. Even animals are smart enough to run when things start to go bad. I can't fathom why every time initiative is rolled, something has to die.
Pathfinder is set up to give you xp even if you didn't kill the guy so nobody should be whining when the bad guy lives to fight another day. If you're sick of the enemy running then you havent added enough into your party build or tactics to keep him from running away.
Every choice has a consequence.
Vincent - that's all well and good, but how would you feel if you and your party walked into the room, the villain does a little monologue and escapes, all without you even being able to act? Or perhaps you do act, but somehow they have an unhittable AC or godlike saves?
Vincent - that's all well and good, but how would you feel if you and your party walked into the room, the villain does a little monologue and escapes, all without you even being able to act? Or perhaps you do act, but somehow they have an unhittable AC or godlike saves?
These are the times when a player thinks he is playing a video game and is now watching one of those videos where you cannot act. You know...the ones that narrow the screen and you just simply stand there :P
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Vincent - that's all well and good, but how would you feel if you and your party walked into the room, the villain does a little monologue and escapes, all without you even being able to act? Or perhaps you do act, but somehow they have an unhittable AC or godlike saves?These are the times when a player thinks he is playing a video game and is now watching one of those videos where you cannot act. You know...the ones that narrow the screen and you just simply stand there :P
You know; the ones players often skip so they can get right back to murdertown?
Part of this thread and the OP has been how to keep hate off the GM. Players hate when they are not part of the game. Everything they do should matter at least a little.
If the BBEG does escape but the players hit him, what if next time they see him he's got a limp, or a dead arm or a blind eye or whatever? Just SOMETHING that confirms to the players "That's right; you matter"
Players will always have some measure of contempt for their GM, even if it's barely there. After all, the GM controls so much more than they do. But that contempt turns to hate when they sense that they're merely an audience to your "masterpiece"
I think Chris Perkins (CEO of D&D) puts it best in this panel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCg-YPC8ajo
1: A good BBEG has a memorable set of traits and mannerisms, something about them has to be completely unique and different. A pirate lord with cannon for a leg and dragon familiar. An intelligent plant, that carries a thundering scythe but wears human clothing.
2: The villain needs a connection with the party. Motivations that clash, have items the party wants or be trying to steal something from the party. Done right it should really elicit an emotional impact from your players.
3: A villain has to have a pervasive influence, they must be constant thorn in the parties side. They don't necessarily need to interact with them directly, it can be spies, thieves, hit men or many other methods but they must constantly be felt through meddling through the campaign.
4: If you throw the villain at the party be prepared for them to die, they have to follow the rules but design an out for them. A smart villain will have a backup plan or escape planned just in case things go bad.
Again watch the video, Chris Perkins tells it best.
We all know how the heroic story should go, so we can all sense when the "big final battle" comes. When it's big final battle time, players deserve the satisfaction of roundly beating the BBEG, rather than having him run away.
This I completely disagree with. The players should have an opportunity to defeat the BBEG, but it should not be a foregone conclusion. I'd rather just play Skyrim or some other CRPG or MMORPG if I want guaranteed victory.
A good campaign should involve many challenges. If the players fail at the challenges, their should be the possibility that their characters die. At the final battle, it should be a difficult battle. The entire group may die if the dice are against them or if they did not prepare properly.
That's what makes the accomplishments actually special. If defeating the BBEG is a foregone conclusion, we might as well just be playing make believe.
Let me clarify. I don't mean give the players the victory. I simply mean that there should eventually come a confrontation where the villain manifestly does not run away from the PCs.
Oh, okay. You can understand my confusion when you said:
When it's big final battle time, players deserve the satisfaction of roundly beating the BBEG, rather than having him run away.
I would never purely fiat that my bbeg could get through an entire evil monologue and escape before the players had a chance to act. I would allow them to interrupt his monologue at any time and attempt to chase him down to the extent of their abilities.
If, however, the bbeg were able to put the players in a position within the game mechanics where they were unable to oppose a monologue and a dramatic exit... that's another story.
I give the players infinite leeway in controlling what they can control. If they want to capture an intelligent badguy they're gonna earn it.
One of the many pitfalls I see as an U.S.-native English-speaker is that we not only use the same word for lots of similar meanings, we apparently feel inclined to do so with acronyms as well.
I’ve seen the “BBEG” used to describe both the last guy in a specific encounter “boss-fight” as well as the long-running architect of efforts to foil players over multiple encounters (most of which had their own “combat BBEG”), which may or may not end in a combat encounter. Especially if the “foil BBEG” is actually non-evil or from an allied faction.
To address the “combat BBEG” (who is normally only around for 3-6 sessions, tops) I would focus on things that the PCs might find frustrating, but not impossible to overcome. Use of favorable tactics, use of minions which minimize the abilities of the PCs to ROFL-stomp them, blackmail or eradication of the PCs allies, gloating messages delivered via whispering wind describing in detail the prior, general black-hat sort of behavior. If you are looking for good ways for them to “get away” while still keeping a sense of accomplishment for the PCs you could have them be utilizing magic jar, have a dominated shadow sorcerer switch places with them via CLA’s (or a character with similar abilities which still give the PCs a target / source for additional info), or just have them get killed and rez’d later. During the combat, make it clear that – though you have written up and are playing the BBEG to the best of their ability – you are rooting for the PCs (ask if they remembered certain bonuses if they barely miss die rolls, verify they remembered bard damage buffs, etc.). This makes it a bit easier for the players to focus on the NPC rather than the GM.
For the “Moriarty” style of NPC that a whole campaign might revolve around, it’s a bit trickier as you are going to have to up the competitive level a few steps to make sure that the PCs don’t just jump right to the end. For “off the cuff” styles of GMing, this is actually sometimes easier as you can just introduce a whole host of minor NPCs to begin with and then find one later that will fit to have been the arch-enemy all along a bit later in your story arcs (hopefully due to taking notes and making sure the paladin did not, in fact, detect evil on them when they should have “pinged”). Make it clear early on that the PCs are at least occasionally being observed. Write down notes on party tactics and discussions when you decide that the BBEG or a minion is scrying or what the PCs tell NPCs that may be compromised by the BBEG down the road. Make sure that both the players and the characters realize that the “Moriarty” BBEG is not just a “level boss” and will likely frustrate them if they take them as lightly. Prepare back-up plans, back-up back-up plans, and make sure that they use proxies where appropriate (which is most places). As with the “combat BBEG”, make sure that the players know that you are rooting for them when it all hits the fan, even if it’s a schlew of diplomacy, sense motive and bluff rolls that has the high priest of their church removed for being a closet heretic rather than a combat encounter with a shapechanged demon lord.
TL/DR: “Cheer with the PCs on their successes, commiserate with them on their failures. Make it seem that you are invested in their fun at least as much as you are and that, while you intend to challenge their characters, you are also a involved in the game and want (probably more than any of them) to see it succeed.”
-TimD
It all depends on your style of play and your players. I prefer a drawn out buildup with a big reveal. So far it's been keeping the players on the edge of their seats.
*It's late and I'm tired, so I apologize in advance if this is all over the place.*
If he truly is big and bad, there is no reason he should be running away from players in early encounters. If the players DO encounter him, they should be running away from him.
Start Small: If you truly want to have a memorable BBEG adventure, it helps to start small. At the beginning your players won't even be a speck on his radar. The BBEG may be in a lair somewhere planning world domination while the PCs are plodding away fighting spiders that have set up nest in a nearby forest.
Build it Slowly: There is no reason the BBEG needs to show himself at all early on in the campaign. At the beginning run only a scant few adventures based on the main story arc, with plenty of in-between adventures that include "favors for friends" or "answering a call on the billboard." As the players increase in level, story arc games will become more common, until they become the focus of the campaign. It feels more organic for the players and they gain a better emotional attachment to the things that happen in the world. It also allows you time to fine-tune the BBEG based on the reactions of the players.
Insignificance: The PCs are the stars of the show, but the BBEG doesn't know that and he certainly doesn't care. In our current game the players were attending an award ceremony when an immense undead dragon unexpectedly attacked the city and killed the royal family (as well as a ton of commoners).
Did I mention that the PCs are only level 6?
They had no choice, they had to run and eventually hid in the sewers. I gave the players control of the court wizard and royal guards so they could play out the fight with the dragon while their PCs ran to safety. They knew the dragon was sent by someone more powerful, but they have no idea who it could be... yet.
Actions, Not Words: Let the BBEG's actions speak for him. Does he send armies to kill the innocent? Does he secretly pull strings and manipulate politics from the shadows? I've never had a conversation with Vlad the Impaler, but I'm pretty sure he didn't get that nickname for his large contributions to toys for tots.
The Big Reveal: The revelation of the BBEG should mean something to the players. It could be an ally, an acquaintance from the past, or a seemingly throwaway NPC that escaped earlier in the campaign. My current BBEG is a former PC from a few campaigns ago.
SBEGs and MBEGs: They don't all need to be BIG bad evil guys. Try small and medium sometimes too. Use their lackey's whenever possible. Let them beg for mercy when they are going down, hit your players with the "I was only following orders" routine as a way to point their anger toward the BBEG.
On that topic, I am a fan of running side-games or as we call them, "optional adventures." These are games that occur in our campaign world but with different characters. While the above mentioned PCs were in the city running from dragons, the people in their hometown were fighting off a small force of invaders from the north.
The town was sacked. Only a few people escaped and our bard's parents were killed. The few who escaped managed to get news to the party.
The "optional adventure" serves a variety of purposes in this instance.
-It allows the players to try different class/level combinations without
having to worry about their "main" getting killed.
-It gives the players a feeling that the world doesn't stop just because their characters aren't there.
-It provides the players with motives for going after the BBEG and his lackey's without having direct interaction.
-It's fun!
Ugh, sorry for writing a book here and sorry to end abruptly. I'm going to bed!
I'll admit, as a player and a Gm, I'm a sucker for villains that monologue. It's just so fun and I'm always disappointed when Gms done do it, or a player interrupts the bad guy.