My basic question is this: when a character is under the effects of a Form of the Dragon spell, does he only gain 'generic' natural attacks or does he gain natural attacks with the same properties as those of an actual dragon? Specifically, does he gain reach and 1.5x Strength on the bite attack? The Form of the Dragon spell seems to say that the character just gains basic natural attacks. However, the wording of the polymorph rules and the 'True Dragon' type description suggests otherwise.
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a scale of the dragon type you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Save see text; Spell Resistance no
You become a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a +2 size bonus to Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, fly 60 feet (poor), darkvision 60 feet, a breath weapon, and resistance to one element. You also gain one bite (1d8), two claws (1d6), and two wing attacks (1d4). Your breath weapon and resistance depend on the type of dragon. You can only use the breath weapon once per casting of this spell. All breath weapons deal 6d8 points of damage and allow a Reflex save for half damage.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
....
Claws: These primary attacks deal the indicated damage plus the dragon's Strength bonus.
Wings: The dragon can slam foes with its wings, even when flying. Wing attacks are secondary attacks that deal the indicated damage plus 1/2 the dragon's Strength bonus.
Tail Slap: The dragon can slap one foe each round with its tail. A tail slap is a secondary attack that deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (this is an exception to the normal secondary attack rules).
As you can see in the above spoilers, the polymorph rules say that "you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature". When you look up the rules for a dragon's natural attack, it flat out says that a dragon's bite "has reach as if the creature were one size category larger". This is not an extraordinary or supernatural ability. This is simply a property of the natural attack that dragons have, and is listed as an integral part of their Bite natural attack.
Soo... then logically, doesn't this mean that a person who is under the effects of Form of the Dragon would also gain reach and 1.5x Strength damage on their bite attacks? Or am I stretching the rules too far?
It would seem safe to assume so. Just my reading.
Yes it does.
You don't gain reach as the Form One spell isn't changing your size. (assuming you are a caster that's not larger than Medium in your normal form.)
Medium Dragons after all, don't have reach.
This is true. I guess the reach part of my question applies to Form of the Dragon 2 then :)
Medium dragons do get reach with their bite. Their Bestiary entry says:
"Bite: This is a primary attack that deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (even though it has more than one attack). A dragon's bite attack has reach as if the creature were one size category larger (+10 feet for Colossal dragons)."
So a medium dragon has a bite with reach equivalent to a large creature.
Dragon Form spells should grant this. After all, you do have the form of a dragon, no reason to assume your dragon form has a stumpy little short neck.
(Matrix Dragon, I'm ashamed of you. You ARE a dragon. You should know this; not leave it up to the Tarrasque to point it out for you...) ;)
Medium dragons do get reach with their bite. Their Bestiary entry says:
"Bite: This is a primary attack that deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (even though it has more than one attack). A dragon's bite attack has reach as if the creature were one size category larger (+10 feet for Colossal dragons)."
So a medium dragon has a bite with reach equivalent to a large creature.
Dragon Form spells should grant this. After all, you do have the form of a dragon, no reason to assume your dragon form has a stumpy little short neck.
(Matrix Dragon, I'm ashamed of you. You ARE a dragon. You should know this; not leave it up to the Tarrasque to point it out for you...) ;)
Well, I think the issue is that large quadruped creatures don't gain reach. So, a medium dragon's bite would have the reach of a Large quadruped... which is still 5-ft. Technically, the dragon would have to be large sized in order to gain 10-ft reach with the bite. So hah! ;)
Examples: Medium Red Dragon, no reach
And yet here is a medium white dragon with a 10' bite.
Maybe the SRD isn't always perfect; clearly here it is contradicting itself.
In any case, I'm not aware that there is a rule about large quadruped creatures. I couldn't find it searching the SRD, nor scanning the universal monster rules nor monster creation rules. Can you link the rule?
Sure, yeah, a horse or a tiger doesn't have a long neck, so it probably shouldn't have reach. Dragons have a long neck which is why they have a special rule about their bite attack reach, listed in the dragon's rules.
A medium dragon takes up the same amount of space as a wolf. The wolf has no reach because it's neck is a few inches long. The dragon has reach because it's neck is much longer (and because it has rules giving dragons the reach of a large creature instead of a medium one).
And yet here is a medium white dragon with a 10' bite.
Maybe the SRD isn't always perfect; clearly here it is contradicting itself.
In any case, I'm not aware that there is a rule about large quadruped creatures. I couldn't find it searching the SRD, nor scanning the universal monster rules nor monster creation rules. Can you link the rule?
Sure, yeah, a horse or a tiger doesn't have a long neck, so it probably shouldn't have reach. Dragons have a long neck which is why they have a special rule about their bite attack reach, listed in the dragon's rules.
A medium dragon takes up the same amount of space as a wolf. The wolf has no reach because it's neck is a few inches long. The dragon has reach because it's neck is much longer (and because it has rules giving dragons the reach of a large creature instead of a medium one).
This was a rule that I picked up on when I was running summoners. Large creatures only gained reach if they were 'tall'. Usually this means bipeds.
I'm having trouble finding a page with pure rules about size/reach. However, I've turned up a page of Size/Reach Templates. You'll see that the Large(long) template has a 5-ft reach, while the Large(tall) template has a 10-ft reach.
Edit: Here we go. The Big And Little Creatures In Combat section of the combat rules has a size/reach table. Large(tall) creatures have a reach of 10-ft while Large(long) creatures have a reach of 5-ft. I believe that dragons usually qualify as long rather than tall.
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I'm working on some dragons now and came across this thread.
A young white dragon has a 10' bite and is a medium creature.
A young black dragon is also medium, but has no 10' bite.
I'm confused all over again. Or are black dragons more "long" and white dragons more "tall"?
Hmm. I guess so.
I'm working on some dragons now and came across this thread.
A young white dragon has a 10' bite and is a medium creature.
A young black dragon is also medium, but has no 10' bite.
I'm confused all over again. Or are black dragons more "long" and white dragons more "tall"?
All dragons are typically 'long' creatures, but some have shorter necks relative to their body size than others. Green dragons, for example, have the longest necks relative to body size, so that they can have a clear view over the trees in their forest habitats. They also have the longest legs, to step over all the foliage and debris on the forest floor. (Incidentally, this little fact actually comes from the D&D Draconomicon, so it's not technically canon for PF, but it's still a useful resource if you're looking for more varied dragon NPCs.)
To determine whether your assumed dragon form has any reach, you should check its entry in the Bestiary.
Threadnecro.
Regardless, all standard Dragons have reach on their bite attacks. It's in the PRD.
Bite: This is a primary attack that deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon's Strength bonus (even though it has more than one attack). A dragon's bite attack has reach as if the creature were one size category larger (+10 feet for Colossal dragons).
I would chalk up any stat entries in the PRD for medium dragons that don't include reach for the bite as an oversight. Rules text has higher priority than printed stat blocks.
I would chalk up any stat entries in the PRD for medium dragons that don't include reach for the bite as an oversight. Rules text has higher priority than printed stat blocks.
Typically, specific rules override general ones, meaning the stat blocks are correct. And as shown by the table Matrix Dragon linked, medium dragons which do have a longer reach are actually the exceptions. Large (long) creatures only have a reach of 5 ft.
You get what the spell gives you...just like Beast shape and all other polymorph spells.
YOu don't become the creature, you put on a spell-created creature-suit.
You would only get the reach that a creature of the resultant size would get... i.e. 10 feet for large, 15 for Huge, etc.
You get what the spell gives you...just like Beast shape and all other polymorph spells.
YOu don't become the creature, you put on a spell-created creature-suit.
You would only get the reach that a creature of the resultant size would get... i.e. 10 feet for large, 15 for Huge, etc.
Abilities-wise, yes, you only get what the spell grants.
However! For natural attacks, you look to the creature's bestiary block. "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks." This would include the reach of those attacks, unless that reach is somehow granted by an ability.
You get what the spell gives you...just like Beast shape and all other polymorph spells.
YOu don't become the creature, you put on a spell-created creature-suit.
You would only get the reach that a creature of the resultant size would get... i.e. 10 feet for large, 15 for Huge, etc.
Abilities-wise, yes, you only get what the spell grants.
However! For natural attacks, you look to the creature's bestiary block. "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks." This would include the reach of those attacks, unless that reach is somehow granted by an ability.
Proficiency is not reach.
Reach is determined by the creature's size and shape. If you change into creature _____ and it has reach then you have reach.
I would chalk up any stat entries in the PRD for medium dragons that don't include reach for the bite as an oversight. Rules text has higher priority than printed stat blocks.Typically, specific rules override general ones, meaning the stat blocks are correct. And as shown by the table Matrix Dragon linked, medium dragons which do have a longer reach are actually the exceptions. Large (long) creatures only have a reach of 5 ft.
Stat blocks are trumped by text. That's how I've always seen people view those discrepancies.
I have found that the PFSRD isn't accurate when it comes to stating out creatures that are not explicitly listed in the Bestiaries. They extrapolate based on the standard rules and don't always get the details right.
Every dragon in Bestiary 1 that has a "Space" entry in its stat block shows reach for the bite (except for the Young Black, Ancient Brass, and Young Bronze, which don't have a space entry at all). All of the Medium sized dragons in the Bestiary 1 have reach (except for the mentioned Young Black that doesn't have any Space/Reach entry). You should view the rule in the dragon section as applying to all dragons and stat them accordingly, not just blindly follow what is on a third party site (no matter how awesome and useful that site is).
Every dragon in Bestiary 1 that has a "Space" entry in its stat block shows reach for the bite (except for the Young Black, Ancient Brass, and Young Bronze, which don't have a space entry at all). All of the Medium sized dragons in the Bestiary 1 have reach (except for the mentioned Young Black that doesn't have any Space/Reach entry).
Most of the Large dragons in the Bestiary 1 (other than the Adult Brass and Young Bronze) have a listed reach of "10ft with bite." If, as the general rules for dragons states, that is the reach of a creature one size category larger than the dragon (i.e. Huge), then a Medium dragon would have a reduced reach (5ft) unless specified otherwise.
You should view the rule in the dragon section as applying to all dragons and stat them accordingly, not just blindly follow what is on a third party site (no matter how awesome and useful that site is).
If you're referring to the information I posted from the Draconimicon, then I agree, you shouldn't blindly follow it. But the table Matrix Dragon posted is actually in the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 195 of the 2009 hardcover edition, as well as the official Paizo PRD (Combat section), along with the note:
*These values are typical for creatures of the indicated size. Some exceptions exist.
Bold text is my emphasis. According to that table, medium dragons should have a reach of 5ft with their bite, unless specified otherwise.
Reach is determined by the creature's size and shape. If you change into creature _____ and it has reach then you have reach.
You don't change into the creature the way you did in the 3.5 days. You take on a shape whose limits are defined by the intersection of the limits of the spell and that of the creature. Form of the Dragon is VERY specific about the attacks you get and the damage they do. No 1.5x multipliers are specified in the spell.
Reach, crit multiplier, and Str modifier used, unless based on ability not gained, are part of each natural attack in exactly the same way damage dice and secondary/primary status are.