Swift action during full attack?

[The Morphling]

Is it possible to perform a swift action in-between attacks during a full attack? Could an invisible ninja make one attack, then vanish, then make his second attack?

I wasn't able to find anything specifically confirming or denying this in the rules.

[blackbloodtroll]

Absolutely.

You can use a Swift action anytime you could use a Free action, as long as it is your turn.

[Nefreet]

Could an Inquisitor already under the effect of his Justice Judgment (giving a bonus on attack rolls) use his swift action to change his Judgment to Destruction (giving a bonus on damage rolls) after a successful hit?

[Kazaan]

Relevant rule:

Swift Actions wrote:

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

So, you could be invisible, standing next to a target, attack (they're denied dex to AC so it's a sneak attack), swift action to become invisible again, then attack again for another sneak attack. Alternatively, don't take your second attack, use the fact that you're invisible and move to a new target you want to harass (since you only made a standard attack action). The old target may think you're still nearby and try attacking where you were standing while the new target is ready to be sliced open like a pillow.

[Oncoming_Storm]

Nefreet wrote:

Could an Inquisitor already under the effect of his Justice Judgment (giving a bonus on attack rolls) use his swift action to change his Judgment to Destruction (giving a bonus on damage rolls) after a successful hit?

I don't see why not. S/he wouldn't be able to do it again next round, but it's not unreasonable.

[EldonG]

Nefreet wrote:

Could an Inquisitor already under the effect of his Justice Judgment (giving a bonus on attack rolls) use his swift action to change his Judgment to Destruction (giving a bonus on damage rolls) after a successful hit?

I would say no. It's not between discrete actions... but it's definitely open for interpretation. What's required? Hand motions? A word or two?

My issue is pretty basic...the attack was committed to...if you hit, there's damage... it's not a 2 part thing, with even an instant in-between.

[Kazaan]

Regarding hot-swapping judgements, it's actually an intriguing question. There is precedent for various swift, free, and immediate actions being triggered in the middle of adjudicating different sub-parts of a single action. For example, an ability may say you can choose to activate it after your attack roll, but before your damage roll. But, the mere fact that specific abilities have the need to call out that you can apply them between parts of an otherwise discrete action is probably the exception that proves the rule. So, as the de facto standard, the damage roll and attack rolls are all part of the same attack. There are different thresholds of adjudication for various specific rules elements, but judgements have no allowance clauses in them so you must already be using the judgement for it to apply.

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Nefreet wrote:

Could an Inquisitor already under the effect of his Justice Judgment (giving a bonus on attack rolls) use his swift action to change his Judgment to Destruction (giving a bonus on damage rolls) after a successful hit?

Thus effectively gaining the effects of both judgements on a single attack?

While I'm not prepared to make a RAW argument against, I think it's pretty clear this isn't RAI.

[The Morphling]

I am inclined to think there is no rules clause spelled out that mentions performing a swift action between the attack and damage rolls of an attack, so I would default to the logical answer of "noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo~."

Once you've swung the blade and connected, you cannot then (swiftly) pray to your god to make you swing harder, before your damage is determined.

[Ignipotens]

A full round action is one action even if it gives you multiple attacks. Are there any rules against stopping an action in the middle to perform another action then continuing the first initial action? I thought there was but I can't think of any off hand.

[LazarX]

Ignipotens wrote:

A full round action is one action even if it gives you multiple attacks. Are there any rules against stopping an action in the middle to perform another action then continuing the first initial action? I thought there was but I can't think of any off hand.

You're asking the wrong question. The game is about what it permits, not what it excludes. There aren't any general rules that permit cleaving an action into two pieces and inserting another between them.

[Ckorik]

LazarX wrote:

Ignipotens wrote:

A full round action is one action even if it gives you multiple attacks. Are there any rules against stopping an action in the middle to perform another action then continuing the first initial action? I thought there was but I can't think of any off hand.

You're asking the wrong question. The game is about what it permits, not what it excludes. There aren't any general rules that permit cleaving an action into two pieces and inserting another between them.

You can 5 foot step in-between attacks - and change targets for each attack - swift actions are limited to one per round and only on your turn but otherwise are as fast as 'free' - why couldn't you swift action if you can 5 foot step?

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Ckorik wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Ignipotens wrote:

A full round action is one action even if it gives you multiple attacks. Are there any rules against stopping an action in the middle to perform another action then continuing the first initial action? I thought there was but I can't think of any off hand.

You're asking the wrong question. The game is about what it permits, not what it excludes. There aren't any general rules that permit cleaving an action into two pieces and inserting another between them.

You can 5 foot step in-between attacks - and change targets for each attack - swift actions are limited to one per round and only on your turn but otherwise are as fast as 'free' - why couldn't you swift action if you can 5 foot step?

If the question was "Can the Inquisitor use a judgement on their first attack, and then switch judgements on their second attack" then that would be a resounding yes! However, using one judgement to hit, and then a second to do damage on the same hit is not what is intended IMHO.

[Buri]

Nothing I can recall let's you make impromptu decisions during an action unless it says so. You either make choices before or after the attack but the "attack roll/take damage" bits are a single action. Likewise, you couldn't "attack" one enemy and damage another.

[Xaratherus]

The Morphling wrote:

I am inclined to think there is no rules clause spelled out that mentions performing a swift action between the attack and damage rolls of an attack, so I would default to the logical answer of "noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo~."

Once you've swung the blade and connected, you cannot then (swiftly) pray to your god to make you swing harder, before your damage is determined.

There are some spells that can be cast as swift (or immediate, which are just swift actions that can be used outside your own turn) actions upon successfully hitting a target. Forceful Strike is one such example.

[Claxon]

In regards to the Inquistor changing Judgements question the answer is no, it doesn't work the way you want it to.

You can change the judgement after your attack, but it only affects your next attack. Despite having separate rolls to represent the attack and damage portions of your characters "attack" there is no difference in the time at which they happen. If you make an attack roll and are successful you cause damage, only abilities that specficially say they can interupt this flow can do so.

So, go ahead and change your judgement after your swing. The change will affect your next swing, not the one you're currently trying to resolve. Because in truth, you can't do anything until you've finished resolving that attack.

[LazarX]

Ckorik wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Ignipotens wrote:

A full round action is one action even if it gives you multiple attacks. Are there any rules against stopping an action in the middle to perform another action then continuing the first initial action? I thought there was but I can't think of any off hand.

You're asking the wrong question. The game is about what it permits, not what it excludes. There aren't any general rules that permit cleaving an action into two pieces and inserting another between them.

You can 5 foot step in-between attacks - and change targets for each attack - swift actions are limited to one per round and only on your turn but otherwise are as fast as 'free' - why couldn't you swift action if you can 5 foot step?

That's a SPECIFIC rule, not a general one. You can do ONE five foot step between swings in a combat round, that does not extend to ANY possible swift action.

[Pupsocket]

LazarX wrote:

There aren't any general rules that permit cleaving an action into two pieces and inserting another between them.

Sure there are. Free actions; you can take those during another action; if you couldn't, archery f.ex. wouldn't work.

[Xaratherus]

Combat - Action Types wrote:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Free actions can be taken simultaneously with other actions. Therefore, they can occur between or during other actions.

Combat - Swift Actions wrote:

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

Swift actions are limited to one per round, but the only limitation on when you can take them is when you can take a free action.

And if we combine the logic of the two: Since a free action can be taken simultaneously with other actions - including during\between the various attacks of a full-attack action - a swift action can also be taken during that same time.

[Nefreet]

I have a new Inquisitor for PFS that just jumped to 3rd level via GM credit. Since opinions seem to vary widely on this topic, I'll just chalk it up to table variation and ask the GM before the session starts how he/she thinks it would work. I'm not sold either way, but when I saw this thread the idea popped into my head, so I figured I'd ask.

[Ckorik]

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

If the question was "Can the Inquisitor use a judgement on their first attack, and then switch judgements on their second attack" then that would be a resounding yes! However, using one judgement to hit, and then a second to do damage on the same hit is not what is intended IMHO.

Sure but I thought the question was "Is it possible to perform a swift action in-between attacks during a full attack? Could an invisible ninja make one attack, then vanish, then make his second attack?"

The changing judgement in between hit and damage I agree is pushing things too far (especially given the recent rulings on free actions) - in between separate attacks however I'd say is 100% intended.

Just because "Full Attack" is a full round action doesn't remove other action types that can be taken during any other full round action (your one swift, and one immediate). That being said the wording on swift action favors the ability to do either RAW.

[Nefreet]

The original question was about Ninjas and turning invisible in between attacks, which I think everyone agrees is totally doable, so I posed the question about switching Judgments between attack/damage rolls, and that's where people started disagreeing.

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

Ckorik wrote:

Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:

If the question was "Can the Inquisitor use a judgement on their first attack, and then switch judgements on their second attack" then that would be a resounding yes! However, using one judgement to hit, and then a second to do damage on the same hit is not what is intended IMHO.

Sure but I thought the question was "Is it possible to perform a swift action in-between attacks during a full attack? Could an invisible ninja make one attack, then vanish, then make his second attack?"

That was the original question, and it is clear one can vanish BETWEEN attacks.

Someone then asked the question about swapping judgements between the roll to hit, and the roll for damage.

[Xaratherus]

I wouldn't allow changing of judgements between the attack roll and the damage roll, nor do I think the rules imply it would\should be allowed. Using a swift action between attacks is supported because those attacks are separate 'action's in-game (even if they are all part of one full-attack action); an attack roll is not a separate action from the resulting damage roll.

[Deadalready]

A similar comparison would be to allow a mage to strike with a melee weapon and cast (via metamagic quickened) shocking grasp before damage is rolled. Not sure many GMs would allow that.

[Bizbag]

Deadalready wrote:

A similar comparison would be to allow a mage to strike with a melee weapon and cast (via metamagic quickened) shocking grasp before damage is rolled. Not sure many GMs would allow that.

Given that there is a magus ability (Arcane Edge) which specifically allow him to make such decisions after he's hit, I'm inclined to think you normally can't.