If my character takes Weapon Finesse at low levels, then gets Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at later levels, can I take both and retrain the first to another feat to avoid what would normally be wasteful redundancy?
I want to say yes, since it seems like that is exactly the kind of thing the retraining rules were meant for, but I wanted to make sure.
I would agree I think this sort of scenario is the exact reason why retraining rules were created.
What makes you think you can't?
I imagines some people would say that you can only have a given feat once unless it specifically states otherwise.
In short you wouldn't have "Weapon Finesse and Weapon Finesse (B)" on your character sheet. You would only have "Weapon Finesse," leaving nothing for you to retrain really.
I would just let you pick something else for that bonus feat.
My lament is that I'm wanting to play a Gunslinger-Spellslinger-Eldritch Knight, and I don't think it's legal to re-train away the redundant Firearms and Gunsmithing feats.
One of the Cavalier archetypes was nice about this. It gives you a short list of feats to choose from, but says that if you already have all of them you can just take any combat feat instead. Most bonus feat class features should have that sort of language.
Another Cavalier archetype was awful about it though. Thanks for giving me Step Up & Strike at eighteenth level when everyone else gets it at sixth level and you don't offer any alternatives.
technically you cannot gain a feat twice, so if you received a feat for a second time, you'd only have it once. so no retraining. The easy solution to this would be to retrain just before leveling. practicly this would amount to nothing more then just mentioning it before leveling and working out the retraining time.
so short awnser no, long awnser, there are ways around it.
Do you have RAW support for that statement, Diekssus? If so, please do share.
If I'm not mistaken, the RAW says you cannot CHOOSE to take the same feat more than once unless otherwise stated.
If I take a feat, and then am given the same feat later as a bonus feat, I've only chosen it once. The second time it was given to me for free* with there being no choice in the matter.
* Which I believe would fall under the "unless stated otherwise" group, since it is essentially forced.
The OGC indicates that it is possible to have the same feat more than once, even without the explicit Special: text, via the line ...
"If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description."
Do you have RAW support for that statement, Diekssus? If so, please do share.
If I'm not mistaken, the RAW says you cannot CHOOSE to take the same feat more than once unless otherwise stated.
If I take a feat, and then am given the same feat later as a bonus feat, I've only chosen it once. The second time it was given to me for free* with there being no choice in the matter.
* Which I believe would fall under the "unless stated otherwise" group, since it is essentially forced.
fair enough, yes that seems to be the correct interpretation, If you are indeed given it, and its not chosen (as a fighter bonus feat fi)
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Let's be honest ... this is going to be one of those 'the English language is imprecise' things that's going to come down to how an individual GM/table interprets it, and/or just how they choose to deal with it.
As a GM when this situation comes up (also for bonus spells for sorcerers) I just let the player pick something to replace it at the time they get the free whatever. So, Weapon Finesse or if a sorcerer decides to take Burning Hands at 1st level then gets Burning Hands from their bloodline at 2nd level, they get to pick a new spell for free to replace their first level spell.
I have however seen a few people on this forum that have said the opposite... if you aren't willing to wait for your bonus feats/spells, then you are punished. I think however that's a very very mean GM, and one I would not play with.