A heinous flag.
Quote? I've never heard that.
To answer Deacon's question: Slavery for Fun and Profit?
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What in-game aspect is slavery going to provide?
There were at least two mentions of slaves / NPC workers.
Using slaves by a settlement manager, to construct the settlement, would tag him with the Heinous Flag. This is very old, and probably not the case any longer, but it has also not been expanded upon since then.
The second reference was not on slavery technically, but it had to do with capturing the NPC workers from one settlement and having them work on your settlement. Again, only a passing comment if I recall correctly.
There has not been any mention of an actual slave trade when it comes to PC participation. That hardly conforms to a PG 13 rating if you ask me, I doubt it will make the cut.
>.>
I'm seeking an answer from the Devs as to what in-game aspects slavery is going to provide for a settlement/nation.
An example would include:
Bonus to production time (build faster)What is the vision they have for Slavery within the game? Other than a Heinous flag.
I would think there'd be a cost to maintain certain things... an upkeep cost, and having slaves would allow you to pay a higher price up-front, and then have a much lower upkeep. You'd still need SOME upkeep, to pay the slave-drivers/guards, but not as much as someone who has to pay all their lazy workers, and their Union benefits...
There has not been any mention of an actual slave trade when it comes to PC participation. That hardly conforms to a PG 13 rating if you ask me, I doubt it will make the cut.
I don't see why it wouldn't be PG-13, you'd just see them working. So long as you couldn't rape your slaves (and yes, I'm talking about forced sexual assault).
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Remember one of the Six River Freedoms covers the normal viewpoint of slavery in the River Kingdoms.
Slavery is an Abomination:
Nothing is so secure in the River Kingdoms as freedom for escaped slaves. Unlike Andorens, Riverfolk won’t leave their homes to free slaves, but a runaway in the River Kingdoms is a slave no more.Some estimates say that one-third of the Riverfolk alive today are escaped slaves or descendants of slaves. Riverfolk welcome thousands of escaped slaves to all kingdoms each year, to fill ranks in armies and agriculture. Escaped slaves are usually the fiercest proponents of the River Freedoms, as these conventions are the first taste of freedom in their new lives.
Because of this freedom, Hellknights of the Order of the Chain and other slave-takers cannot operate openly here, and any Andoren Eagle Knight can dispel most Riverfolk’s natural distrust of strangers by showing her insignia—and get a free drink and a barn to sleep in.
Depending on the local custom, this abolition can extend to indentured servitude. Spellcasters are warned to be circumspect when summoning monsters in the River Kingdoms, lest their magic be misinterpreted.
Even CE Settlement Leaders frown upon slavery.
Your opinions are not what I seek. I would like to see some vision of the mechanics in order to weigh the pros and cons. Even a rough draft of what the devs would like to see through the system would suffice.
You'll know when the information is posted on the blog within the next 6 months or so.
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Even CE Settlement Leaders frown upon slavery.
Chaotics, favoring personal freedom, typically tend to be less prone to slavery though CE is certainly one of the bigger exceptions. The classification and reinforcement of people as property is a larger risk from the LE sector. If anyone thinks that the Hellknights in the area, even the LN ones, give any regard to the River Freedoms over the laws they construct and recognize then they will be sorely disappointed.
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How will I erect my temple to Asmodeus without slaves? The temple requires 9 slaves to be sacrificed during its construction. A virgin's blood is needed just for the groundbreaking!
I don't make up these rules people, so does that make me Heinous? No I think not. I am just a humble woman who seeks to bring order to a small corner of the world.
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I would like something like this
For slaves they wouldnt consume as many resources and undead wouldnt consume any. The result is that you might have some lower costs. Not only that but for slaves at least it could be possible to do something like speed up the construction of a building but that would cost you X number of slaves as they wouldnt survive the construction.
Undead could provide a great return because no resources would be needed to feed/cloth/house them and they can work 24/7 no matter what the conditions so you would see a good reduction in the construction time.
However you could only use slaves and undead labor for the more basic buidlings. slaves would be able to construct better buildings than undead. Slaves would have an issue that they need to be replaced (raiding outposts/settlements/pois?) or you are SoL and undead would require investment in wizards and other arcane arts. For slaves there will probably also be something where they might revolt and have to be put down.
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Again this goes back to alignment as a faction wheel v.s. alignment as 2nd reputation system. If Chaotic and evil are truly supposed to suck and be additional punishment for undesired behavior, why are they getting such cool, high dev, systems like SAD and slavery? It doesn't seem right that GW would put these in so that only the worst types of players can use them.
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honestly i dont think evil/chaotic are supposed to be the limiting factors. Those are to provide people with different options, SAD is suppose to provide bandits a way to do what they do without just killing people all the time. It provides rewards of robbing the way GW wants you to engage in the behavior.
So to me the system they are really using to punish undesired behavior is reputation. remember killing someone with high rep, unless they are flagged, will cost you a lot of rep. The dangers of doing so is that you could get kicked out of your settlement and probably lose access to things that will be linked to it.
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Again this goes back to alignment as a faction wheel v.s. alignment as 2nd reputation system. If Chaotic and evil are truly supposed to suck and be additional punishment for undesired behavior, why are they getting such cool, high dev, systems like SAD and slavery? It doesn't seem right that GW would put these in so that only the worst types of players can use them.
Worst type of players? As a priestess of Asmodeus I plan on using slave labor as often as possible. I didn't know playing my character "in character" made me the worst type of player?
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Again this goes back to alignment as a faction wheel v.s. alignment as 2nd reputation system. If Chaotic and evil are truly supposed to suck and be additional punishment for undesired behavior, why are they getting such cool, high dev, systems like SAD and slavery? It doesn't seem right that GW would put these in so that only the worst types of players can use them.Worst type of players? As a priestess of Asmodeus I plan on using slave labor as often as possible. I didn't know playing my character "in character" made me the worst type of player?
I'm with you Fiendish, hence the debate.
re: leperkahn
We have gotten mixed signals throughout, which doesn't bother me we are crowdforging. But on one end we have Ryan Dancey who is adamant that evil and chaotic will suck and be tied low reputation, while on the other hand we keep hearing about these cool systems like slavery and SAD that suggest chaotic and evil with high reputation is in fact in the game design.
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My opinion for undead vs slaves: if we had both, slaves would be cheaper initially but have an upkeep cost associated with them, whereas undead would have a high initial cost (the price of raising the undead is paid in quality onyxes usually) but very low upkeep.
@avari3, if your group plays as either Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil, I expect you will be in one of the strongest positions alignment-wise as far as what you can train versus what you can do. Be chaotic or evil, but not both.
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I really really really hope that alignment is used as a means of providing social structure and forcing choices. Evil has some extra options that good doesnt have, good however provides decent bonuses to offset those options. heck i forsee good aligned settlements and such maintaining contact with evil folks for things like low rep ce killing machines and assassinations.
I hope rep is what limits player's behavior and alignment is about style of play.
I would love to have people and organizations of all alignments.
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@leperkhaun, that's the system as I understand it. Maybe in some other people's minds LG will have too many buffs compared to LE or CG so that the latter alignments are unplayable, but that's not the impression I've been getting. The only alignment which has been stated to suck is CE.
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If Chaotic and evil are truly supposed to suck and be additional punishment for undesired behavior, why are they getting such cool, high dev, systems like SAD and slavery?
They're each separately getting cool systems.
Ryan has always said it will be the combination of being Chaotic and Evil and Low Reputation that will cause your character to suck. Stephen has clarified that most of the suck comes from being Low Reputation, but that it is extremely unlikely that anyone will be able to pull off High Reputation Chaotic Evil.
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If Chaotic and evil are truly supposed to suck and be additional punishment for undesired behavior, why are they getting such cool, high dev, systems like SAD and slavery?They're each separately getting cool systems.
Ryan has always said it will be the combination of being Chaotic and Evil and Low Reputation that will cause your character to suck. Stephen has clarified that most of the suck comes from being Low Reputation, but that it is extremely unlikely that anyone will be able to pull off High Reputation Chaotic Evil.
Do you think that will be because the actions that lead to that alignment will be mostly rep penalizing?
I am a bit confused because passive recovery (for alignment and rep) will pull you back there and build your rep up at the same time.... All this for doing nothing chaotic or evil.
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If Chaotic and evil are truly supposed to suck and be additional punishment for undesired behavior, why are they getting such cool, high dev, systems like SAD and slavery?They're each separately getting cool systems.
Ryan has always said it will be the combination of being Chaotic and Evil and Low Reputation that will cause your character to suck. Stephen has clarified that most of the suck comes from being Low Reputation, but that it is extremely unlikely that anyone will be able to pull off High Reputation Chaotic Evil.
I can understand if the settlement development penalties of chaotic and evil are surmountable by themselves but too steep a climb in conjunction (low taxes + low labor putout). That makes all the sense in the world. I haven't seen Ryan describe it like that, but of course I take your word.
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I can understand if the settlement development penalties of chaotic and evil are surmountable by themselves but too steep a climb in conjunction (low taxes + low labor putout). That makes all the sense in the world. I haven't seen Ryan describe it like that, but of course I take your word.
Bah! I don't want you to take my word. I really want to link to the direct quote. And I really want you to demand nothing less :)
The jerk funnel is not simply reputation. It is the combination of low reputation, evil, and chaotic behavior. My opinion is that it will be virtually impossible to be chaotic, evil and have a high reputation, and I'm OK with that. I fully expect there will be high reputation lawful evil Settlements, and low reputation chaotic good settlements, and every other combination in the matrix you can imagine. Mechanically the closer your Settlement gets to low rep, chaotic and evil, the less powerful your characters will be.
And just for the record, here's Stephen Cheney on his estimation of the likelihood of anyone being able to pull off High Reputation Chaotic Evil.
There's been no change on this front from what we've told you about alignment and rep previously. That is, we expect the majority of CE characters to also have very low reputation, because ganking lowers all three axes. So Ryan's shorthand is "CE will suck," because we genuinely believe that there won't be very many CE players that maintain high reputation.
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Slavery is a mechanic that is more viable to lawful alignments than Chaotic alignments.
I see your argument that Chaotic/Evil is weaker and shunned, as something as moot. Seeing as these mechanics will be favored by Lawful/Evil settlements, such as Golgotha.
But in regards to slaves and undead only being able to build basic structures, have you heard of the Egyptian Pyramids? It is fairly easy to put something together once and architect designs it. There are intelligent undead as well. Going into Faerûn also presented a country that used intelligent undead as the backbone of its military machine after they found a way to bring them intelligence in mass.
The acts in question are Evil, no doubt, but the Chaos vs Law argument can be argued for an eternity. Raising undead is not a chaotic act unless the lands you raise them in have forbid them in their laws. The same can be said of slavery.
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Slavery is a mechanic that is more viable to lawful alignments than Chaotic alignments.
I see your argument that Chaotic/Evil is weaker and shunned, as something as moot. Seeing as these mechanics will be favored by Lawful/Evil settlements, such as Golgotha.
But in regards to slaves and undead only being able to build basic structures, have you heard of the Egyptian Pyramids? It is fairly easy to put something together once and architect designs it. There are intelligent undead as well. Going into Faerûn also presented a country that used intelligent undead as the backbone of its military machine after they found a way to bring them intelligence in mass.
The acts in question are Evil, no doubt, but the Chaos vs Law argument can be argued for an eternity. Raising undead is not a chaotic act unless the lands you raise them in have forbid them in their laws. The same can be said of slavery.
However it is Heinous and that is what bothers me in this argument. The Heinous flag is unnecessary as I see it. I have said this before, it serves no point other than to grief evil role-players. I can't role-play evil without doing some (many) evil acts. If those evil acts get me a Heinous flag everytime I do them then it puts me in a state of constant random ganking or it limits me from playing my character fully by making me limit how often I do certain things.
As far as I see it, if slavery or raising the undead are illegal in a certain land then yes you get a criminal flag. But if they are not then no foul. As I see it though I will be running around with a Heinous flag in my own evil city. It makes no sense.
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Stephen has clarified that most of the suck comes from being Low Reputation, but that it is extremely unlikely that anyone will be able to pull off High Reputation Chaotic Evil.
Set your core alignment to CE, you begin the game with +1000 Reputation, never kill anyone outside of Feuds, Outpost Raids, SADs, Faction Conflict, Wars, Assassination Contracts or Bounty Contracts and you will be High Rep.
CE + High Rep is easy if you follow the rules and manipulate the circumstances.
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Let not turn this into another alignment debate, there are more then enough of those threads. Lets just focus on the topic, slavery and undead slaves.
@OP I know your directing the question to the devs but my take on crowdforging is that any question asked on these forums, regardless of who it is directed towards, deserves debated and discussed. The devs read this to see how we, the community, feel on a topic and ideas we present that then influences the way that they build the game. Want a direct question without only a direct response, use a PM. Just my 2 copper, not being hostile in case it came off that way.
On topic: My thoughts is that, as mentioned above by a few others, slaves and undead as compared to normal NPC workers should be thought of as an option. Sandbox games are all about options. Your alignment and "class/role" are guidelines to how your expected or "should" choose but not set in stone. That being said, I would love to see each viable in its own way. Something like (very basic concept):
Cost/upkeep
NPC <- Slaves <- Undead
Speed of work
Undead -> Slaves -> NPC
There can be more details in there but this basic concept is what I am thinking. NPCs have the highest cost/upkeep due to paying wages and living expenses, but work the slowest due to mandatory breaks and sleep times. Undead are cheap (simply magic and a fresh corpse gets you a zombie) but work the slowest due to their lack of motivation and motor skills. Slaves fall in the middle, while they don't enjoy the luxuries of 3 squares and a comfy bed, they also only work as hard as needed not to get beat to death.
I can see alignment only being based on the GvE axis on this topic because LvC (IMHO) doesn't matter here. Good settlements frown on slaves and won't use undead, evil favor undead and slaves are fine, neutral are, well....neutral. I can see LvC each using all 3 for various reasons. LE or CE or NE, why would they view slaves vs undead differently? Same with CG, NG, LG? Wouldn't CG settlements still normally use NPCS, maybe the occasional slave labor but still no love for undead right?
Again, these are just my thoughts and views. Feel free to discuss or comment on anything posted here. Reminder, basic concepts here, nothing too in depth as I haven't though that deeply on it.
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However it is Heinous and that is what bothers me in this argument. The Heinous flag is unnecessary as I see it. I have said this before, it serves no point other than to grief evil role-players. I can't role-play evil without doing some (many) evil acts. If those evil acts get me a Heinous flag everytime I do them then it puts me in a state of constant random ganking or it limits me from playing my character fully by making me limit how often I do certain things.
As far as I see it, if slavery or raising the undead are illegal in a certain land then yes you get a criminal flag. But if they are not then no foul. As I see it though I will be running around with a Heinous flag in my own evil city. It makes no sense.
Well honestly I would argue from a RP point of view that getting something like heinous for keeping slaves is perfectly acceptable. I mean raising dead isnt just no liked, its not just a little bad, it is totally majorly Evil with a big E. Slavery is the same thing.
That i think is one of the risks a settlement/person has to accept in order to get benefits or act a certain way.
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All good points. I would like to add.....
I do think slaves harvesting could move law vs chaotic if the slave harvesting kit was set up in wrong hex. Most particularly if it were a Good settlement hex with or without the intent to create unrest prior to invasion. Not sure but I would say if war was declared perhaps not.
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If you are worried about the Heinous flag, then join a settlement of like minded folks.
I doubt anyone will come into Golgotha and attempt to disrupt our daily activities by targeting heinous players. The risk/reward ratio is skewed in such a way as to make it silly to target heinous players in their own settlements.
Imagine if you will:
Player enters an evil settlement and kills a heinous player. Not only will that player now have to contend with the difficult task of leaving said settlement, he will also like be a prime target for assassin training missions and so forth. Evil has its advantages.
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Deacon is correct. That flag is just like the criminal flag. Don't want the flag, don't do anything that causes it to be applied. You want to raise undead, that is considered heinous and you will be flagged as such. I know I will fly the criminal flag quite often, I don't complain because I intend to be a criminal. Yes that opens me to PVP but how would it make sense if it didn't?
If you raise undead and did not flag heinous, how would a wondering pally that stumbles onto you in the act be able to stop you without it? Law or not, undead or against his religion and must be smite. Does this make sense?
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Speed of work
Undead -> Slaves -> NPCNPCs have the highest cost/upkeep due to paying wages and living expenses, but work the slowest due to mandatory breaks and sleep times. Undead are cheap (simply magic and a fresh corpse gets you a zombie) but work the slowest due to their lack of motivation and motor skills. Slaves fall in the middle, while they don't enjoy the luxuries of 3 squares and a comfy bed, they also only work as hard as needed not to get beat to death.
Highlighted a problem - you've got two of them working slowest. I'd think the live, free NPCs would work fastest, or most effectively over time anyway.
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Highlighted a problem - you've got two of them working slowest. I'd think the live, free NPCs would work fastest, or most effectively over time anyway.Speed of work
Undead -> Slaves -> NPCNPCs have the highest cost/upkeep due to paying wages and living expenses, but work the slowest due to mandatory breaks and sleep times. Undead are cheap (simply magic and a fresh corpse gets you a zombie) but work the slowest due to their lack of motivation and motor skills. Slaves fall in the middle, while they don't enjoy the luxuries of 3 squares and a comfy bed, they also only work as hard as needed not to get beat to death.
I think biased opinions are overrunning here.
Present each option so that it has its own perks and faults. Instead of just trying to fault the one you don't plan on using.
1)Freemen:
Description: Normal citizenry hired on to perform works, build structures, etc.
Pace: Average
Hiring Cost: Average
Upkeep Cost: Average
Attrition Rate: Average
Perk: Can be upgraded to specialist which provide a bonus to whatever they are doing. (Structure health, Production bonus from outpost, etc..)
Fault: None
2)Slaves:
Description: Normal citizens that have been captured as slaves or born into slavery. Also includes indentured servants.
Pace: Slow
Hiring Cost: Low
Upkeep Cost: High
Attrition Rate: High
Perk: Ability to lower Upkeep cost, but in turn increase unrest. Can be sacrificed to complete a structure, which in turn raises unrest. (AKA 100 slaves working on a project, it is at roughly 50% completion. You can sacrifice a percentage of the slaves working on the project to add to its completion, so 50 slaves for 50%) Ignore the numbers, thats the Devs job to figure out.
Fault: Flags the slave owner as heinous. Can rebel if unrest reaches a certain limit.
3) Undead:
Description: Normal citizens that have been raised from the dead as a form of undead.
Pace: Fast
Hiring Cost: High (Spells, etc.)
Upkeep Cost: Low (No meals, etc)
Attrition Rate: Low
Perk: Can be assigned to defend the project they are working on in order to boost the garrison or players defending the structure/project
Fault: Provides the project manager with the heinous flag. Lowers the effectiveness of certain structures (Farms, plantations, etc)
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I have no qualms with Necromancers or the like running around with undead minions. Heinous flags or not, I'll treat them just the same as any other and certainly not as a free kill.
I do intend to battle slavery from time-to-time, as one of the few good acts that I partake in. Slavery is a abhorrent according to the River Freedoms, the caravans or slaver operations I come across will be targeted and slavers mercilously slaughtered.