Ranged Feints has been a question for a long time as well. Personally I lean towards 'no' based on the Archer archetype that explicitly allows one to feint at range.
@Jacob Saltband: No, I see what he's saying (although I don't know that I agree with it). Normally when you feint, it affects your next attack in the turn that you feint. I think Majuba is saying that it affects all the attacks in the turn that you feint plus the first attack in your next turn.That ignores the improved feat that makes feint a move action which means 'your next attack' can be in the same turn instead of only on the following turn.
In my opinion greater builds on improved.
It does build on Improved Feint; I was not ignoring it. I'm not certain you still understand what Majuba was implying.
Here's how most people read the feat (note that I'm ignoring whether or not it benefits anyone else - we know for certain it benefits the 'feinter'):
** spoiler omitted **
Now here's what I think Majuba is implying:
** spoiler omitted **
In other words, he's implying that once you feint, you gain the benefit on all attacks made in round 1 (normally only 1 since you have to use the move action to feint), any AoOs made between round 1 and 2, and your first attack in round 2.
I see what your getting at. But the extra benefit from greater feint ends at the begining of your next turn, so before you act.
At least thats what I get fron reading it.
Actually the "deny Dex bonus to AC" portion doesn't necessarily end at the start of your next turn. If in Round 1 I move into position (Move) and then Greater Feint (Move), from that moment on my target is denied Dex. But he's also denied dex against my next attack that is made on or before my next turn. So even though the part I interpret as "denied dex to everyone" ends at the start of my next turn, if I haven't attacked yet by that time, I still get my Round 2 turn to make an attack against the "denied dex".
Now if I manage to make a "denied Dex" attack in Round 1, then I've made my next attack, thereby satisfying that condition of the Feat, and the "general denied Dex" portion still ends at the beginning of my turn in Round 2 as directed by the rules.
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@Jacob Saltband: No, I see what he's saying (although I don't know that I agree with it). Normally when you feint, it affects your next attack in the turn that you feint. I think Majuba is saying that it affects all the attacks in the turn that you feint plus the first attack in your next turn.That ignores the improved feat that makes feint a move action which means 'your next attack' can be in the same turn instead of only on the following turn.
In my opinion greater builds on improved.
It does build on Improved Feint; I was not ignoring it. I'm not certain you still understand what Majuba was implying.
Here's how most people read the feat (note that I'm ignoring whether or not it benefits anyone else - we know for certain it benefits the 'feinter'):
** spoiler omitted **
Now here's what I think Majuba is implying:
** spoiler omitted **
In other words, he's implying that once you feint, you gain the benefit on all attacks made in round 1 (normally only 1 since you have to use the move action to feint), any AoOs made between round 1 and 2, and your first attack in round 2.
I see what your getting at. But the extra benefit from greater feint ends at the begining of your next turn, so before you act.
At least thats what I get fron reading it.
Actually the "deny Dex bonus to AC" portion doesn't necessarily end at the start of your next turn. If in Round 1 I move into position (Move) and then Greater Feint (Move), from that moment on my target is denied Dex. But he's also denied dex against my next attack that is made on or before my next turn. So even though the part I interpret as "denied dex to everyone" ends at the start of my next turn, if I haven't attacked yet by that time, I still get my Round 2 turn to make an attack against the "denied dex".
Now if I manage to make a "denied Dex" attack in Round 1, then I've...
Thats pretty much what I said.
Glad to see we're on the same page. :)
What is left to discuss here?
Ah, kk. Makes sense. :) I figured this subject was just about beaten to death already. heh
I'd never even thought of the other interpretations of this. I always just read that it applied to the feinting characters attacks.
I see it as expanding the loss of Dex bonus caused by feint to all attacks you make instead of just your next attack. If the feat was intended to lose dex to everyone, the feat would say so explicitly.
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Feint
If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Greater Feint
Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.
Feint is a move action with Improved Feint.
So you use a move action to Feint. Your opponent cannot use his dex for AC against next attack if you make before then end of your next turn.
Now Greater Feint causes your opponent to lose his dex bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.
So round 1.
Move into position (Move) and then Greater Feint (Move). No attacks this round.
Round 2.
Denied dex to AC ends.
At what point did this help you???
Yes you still can make an attack in round 2 and your opponent will still be denied his dex to AC against the first (next attack you make) attack that round, but what did Greater Feint do for you??
I see the point.
3.5 Greater Feint provided a +4 to hit on the attack. So, pathfinders change has no historical background to offer.
It would be nice if it was explicit in stating "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus to all attackers until the beginning of your next turn."
However, I see that my interpretation as written effectively does nothing, so it must either a) remove dex for all attackers or b) is another misworded worthless feat.
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I see the point.
3.5 Greater Feint provided a +4 to hit on the attack. So, pathfinders change has no historical background to offer.
It would be nice if it was explicit in stating "Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus to all attackers until the beginning of your next turn."
However, I see that my interpretation as written effectively does nothing, so it must either a) remove dex for all attackers or b) is another misworded worthless feat.
Pretty much why we've asked for a FAQ.
Here's my two cents:
I was thoroughly confused as to what Greater Feint actually provided the user, so I came to find out here.
I saw a wall of text and banned it from use in any of my games. As far as I can see, the players have these options:
Attack as a standard action, then feint as a move action (prepping for next turns dex deprived attack)
or
Feint as a move (it worked) then attack without Dex immediately, sneak attack damage bonus hooray!
The biggest difference I can see between Improved and Greater is the words "next attack" and "all your attacks." Assume for a second that "until the start of your next turn" is a typo and should have been "until the END of your next turn" I can suddenly see where I am flavour-wise making a GREATER than normal feint (I tricked my target for a whole series of attacks!) and I can see how the feat is usable within game.
Assuming that the child-feat rules all apply for the adult-feat then my assumption is correct, and that's a really unfortunate typo and a HELL of a long time to wait for an official FAQ.
By all means everyone use my idea if you want. I know that taking 3 feats to deny an opponent their Dex bonus against a Rogue (so a lvl 10 Rogue gets a +7/+2 attack against them, and two sneak attacks) is pretty well worth the effort.
Have we ever gotten an official ruling on this ?
My Vexing Daredevil really needs to know :P
I'm guessing no...as I can't find anything searching the FAQ.
Strange that they would ignore something that has been clamoring for clarification for so long....
Had a look and still doesn't appear to have been answered?
Another Vexing Daredevil with a need to know, so bump.
I would also like to know. My guess is that it only applies to you, not all of your allies. The benefit is that it applies to the rest of your iterative attacks.
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Except if you are taking a move action to feint, then you aren't getting any iterative attacks. If it only applies to you, then it would only apply to the one attack on your turn, and any attacks of opportunity or attacks triggered outside of your normal attacks (like from Hurtful) before the start of your next turn.
It really is time for an answer on this. If I haven't hit FAQ on this particular thread, I'll do that now.
Official Rules Response
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Greater Feint: Greater Feint says the target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the beginning of my next turn in addition to against my next attack. Is that just against my attacks, which probably won’t be more than just my next attack until my next turn, or is it against my allies as well?
Greater Feint makes the target lose its Dexterity bonus against all melee attacks by anyone until the start of your next turn, not just you. Unless a feint ability specifically mentions ranged attacks (like the Ranged Feint feat), it always denies Dexterity bonus against melee attacks.