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Good Archtype features:
Stab’n grab (catpurse) – replaces trap sense
Bravado’s blade (rake) – replaces trapfinding
Scout’s charge (scout) – replaces uncanny dodge
Skirmisher (scout) – replaces improved uncanny dodge
Deadly range (sniper) – replaces trap sense
Frightening (Thug) – replaces trapfinding
Rogue talents:
Befuddling Strike (AC build)
Cunning Trigger (trap build)
Distracting attack (double rogue)
Fast Getaway (hit’n run)
Follow clues (skill monkey)
Guileful polygot (skill monkey)
Offensive defense (AC build)
Positioning attack (1/day)
Quick trapsmith (trap build)
Snap shot (ranged)
Survivalist (skill monkey)
Knock out blow (1/day)
Stealthy sniper (ranged)
Sniper’s eye (ranged) = shadow strike
Feats builds:
1. Bludgeoner/stage combatant+enforcer+Sap master+ flatfooted (improvised weapon/S.charge)
2. Close quarter thrower + d8 sneak + flatfooted
3. Deceptive exchange+cunning trigger+feint
4. Disengaging shot+terrain+combat reflexes
5. Improved TWF Feint
6. Master combat performer+heroes display+shatter defenses
7. Moonlight stalker feint!
8. School strike + many hits
9. Improved snap shot+combat reflexes+sword&pistol
10. Sorcerous strike + many hits
11. Trappers setup+cunning trigger
12. Boar ferocity+unarmed strike+shatter defenses
13. Snake fang + epic AC+ intimidate build
Shatter builds: require intimidate
a.) Enforcer, +weapon focus+dazzling display+shatter defenses
b.) Hero’s display (requires weapon focus+dazzling display+performing combatant), +shatter defenses (+master combat performer ‘adds free action instead of swift’)
c.) Boar Ferocity (requires Improved Unarmed Strike+Boar Style), +weapon focus+dazzling display+shatter defenses
d.) Nightmare weawer (req: Improved Unarmed strike+nightmare fist+(intimidate2)+ability to cast darkness), +shatter defenses
Feint Builds: require Feint
a.) Improved TW Feint (require TWF+combat expertise), +improved feint+greater feint +ITWF+GTWF
b.) Moonlight Stalker Feint (require Blind Fight+Combat expertise+(bluff6,lowlight/darkvision)+ moonlight stalker, +Improved Feint+Greater Feint
c.) Passing Trick (req: Combat expertise+dodge+improved feint+mobility+size small)
d.) Disengaging shot (req: disengaging feint, dodge, mobility, improved feint, combat expertise)
Flatfooted builds:
Scout’s charge (1hit/round) + AoO (+death from above)
Spring attack (+concealment) (1hit/round) + AoO
Skirmisher (1hit/round) + AoO
Bravado’s blade + weapon focus + dazzling display + shatter defenses (multiple hits/round) + AoO
Improvised weapon + stab’n grab
Additional Feature builds:
Combat reflexes + frightening (thug)
Snake fang+Improved unarmed strike build+intimidate build+epic AC.
Spring attack (dodge, mobility, combat expertise),+ whirlwind?+combat reflexes?
AC build: Offensive defense + intimidate + befuddling strike
Fast getaway + snap shot + focused shot+parting shot + point blank shot+ point blank master + combat reflexes+elven accuracy+close quarter thrower
Feral combat training + improved unarmed strike build + flatfooted
Advanced
Elven accuracy (ranged)
Focused shot (ranged)
Go unnoticed (scouting)
Improved Blind fight (melee)
Greater Blind Fight (melee)
Lucky Halfling (teamplayer)
Parting shot (+fast getaway) (ranged)
Point blank master (ranged)
Razortusk (melee)
Second chance (TWF melee)
SHADOW STRIKE (melee)
Taunt (small intimidater)
Touch of serenity (melee)
Mounted skirmisher (full round attacking)
Well prepared (trap)
Limitations:
- Builds not effective vs uncanny dodge: scout charge, spring build, skirmisher, invisibility
- Builds less effective vs fortification armor quality: ALL!
- Builds not effective against Intelligence 0 enemies = Feinting builds
- Builds not effective vs Critical hit and precision immunity = ALL!
- Builds not effective against immunity to fear = Intimidate builds
- Builds not effective against normal concealment = none! (ranged got seeking, melee got shadow strike)
- Builds not effective against full concealment = ALL! (except greater blind fight builds?)
Feinting effectiveness: DC = 10+BAB+wis
Feint = 3(class skill)+rank+cha+misc+d20
Chance: (20-((10+x+wis)-(3+x+cha+misc)))/20 =65% (if wis=cha), change chance by 5% for every 1 modifier in difference between wisdom and charisma.
Miscs that can increase chances are:
-skill focus (15%-30%)
-Bluff boosting item (5%-25%)
By level 10 (with skill mastery): chance: (10+x+wis)=(3+x+cha+misc+10).
(if wis=cha+3+misc, it’s an automatic success).
The wisdom may reach: 8 higher modifier than your charisma if you have +5 (bluff item).
If you want to faint bosses, YOU MOST have skill focus bluff to know you’ll succeed.
Their wisdom and bonus bab compared to your skill ranks may be 14 higher and you’ll still pull it off at 100 % (conditions such as shaken etc can modify)
Conclusion: any feint build requires: skill focus bluff, +5 magic bluff item and obviously skill mastery
Demoralizing effectiveness DC: 10+HD+wis
Demoralize = 3(class skill)+rank+cha+misc+d20
Chance: (20-((10+x+wis)-(3+x+cha+misc)))/20 =65% (if wis=cha), change chance by 5% for every 1 modifier in difference between wisdom and charisma.
Miscs that can increase chances are:
-skill focus (15%-30%)
-intimidate boosting item (5%-25%)
By level 10 (with skill mastery): chance: (10+x+wis)=(3+x+cha+misc+10).
(if wis=cha+3+misc, it’s an automatic success).
The wisdom may reach: 8 higher modifier than your charisma if you have +5 (intimidate item).
If you want to demoralize bosses, YOU MOST have skill focus intimidate to know you’ll succeed.
Their wisdom and bonus HD compared to your skill ranks may be 14 higher and you’ll still pull it off at 100 % (conditions such as shaken etc can modify)
Conclusion: any intimidate build requires: skill focus bluff, +5 intimidate item and obviously skill mastery.
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Additional info:
Demoralizing have the downside and upside that size difference matters, +4/ difference in size. But this also means that you get -4/size if your smaller than your target. Late game will be hard since enemies tend to grow.
Another difference between demoralizing and feinting mechanic is HD (demoralize) and BAB (feinting). This means feinting might be easier than demoralizing, since all enemies don’t have full BAB progression.
However, there are no features whatsoever that can enable one to feint against more than 1 enemy / round (exclusion “passing trick”).
Performance, Nightmare Weaver and Dazzling display all enables one to demoralize all within 30ft radius of you, who can see and hear you. This means combat reflexes will allow you to sneak attack on each AoO (on these shaken foes).
The approach of hitting more than 1 sneak attack / round.
Rogues have ¾ BAB progression, falling behind martial fighters in chance of hitting. In order of gaining reliable sneak attack chances, the rogue also invests a number of feats. Martial fighters normally invest on increasing attack rolls with the feats rogue invest in getting their sneak attack.
Your chance of hitting is approximately the same as the Martials chance on their third attack, this means you need either touch attacks or simply understanding full round attacking won’t hit.
Ranged rogue builds can get around this: By getting fast getaway + parting shot.
Melee rogue builds hit more than once/ round by claiming all AoOs!
Two weapon Fighting is also a way of getting more hits, but you get reduced chance of hitting and you will have to spend a full round action standing there, just w8ing for your opponent to full round attack you back next round – and he will deal more damage!
The ranged build and the TWF build gets equal number of hits/round, the TWF gets AoOs, but gets hit, while the ranged build is more flexible and can if you invest in it, also get AoOs.
Killing a target:
Killing any target of your HD requires 6x your current sneak attack. Because your sneak attack progression is 1,75damage/lvl, and enemies are supposed to have over 10 hp. 6 x 1,75 = 10,5
The most obvious way of hitting 6x sneak attack is to hit more than once, but the rogues attack rolls will fall short if you simply try to full round attack, so by using clever tactics, you can easily hit twice per round, do this 3 rounds and they’re dead.
However there is a feat which boosts sneak attack considerably: It’s Zap Master. It doubles your sneak attack when dealing nonlethal bludgeoning damage.
Now you only need 3 hits / round.
Most effective build which does this is the ranged build with AoO. It will hit twice on your own turn and if they try to advance they get hit for a third time.
Sap master builds (doesn’t work with invisibility, flanking, feinting or most stuff that denies dex bonus to AC)
It only works while the enemy is flatfooted such as:
1. In surprise round
2. When you use Scout’s Charge (Scout archetype)
3. When you use Skirmisher (Scout archetype)
4. Against shatter defenses
5. Striking with an improvised weapon against a disarmed opponent
6. While enemy is moving in difficult terrain.
1. The surprise round will only grant you 1 hit (snap shot makes you move first)
2. This will make your opponent flat footed when you charge him. If you have pounce, the opponent will only be flat footed against the first hit.
3. Whenever you move at least 10 feet, and then hit, your opponent will be flatfooted against that hit. This works only once/round
4. Shatter defenses will grant you sneak attacks against all who are demoralized or in fear, including multiple attacks and AoOs.
5. Striking will grant you sneak attacks on all hits until they unsheathe their weapon (you won’t be able to disarm them, unless you have the “grab’n stab” rogue talent+”catch off guard”)
6. This only grants sneak attack damage with AoOs and is nothing you can create unless you coordinate with spellcasters or use wands etc with UMD.
>>The Enforcer!<<
Enforcer + sap master+sap adapt+weapon focus+dazzling display+shatter defenses (6feats)
This build will grant you the ability to sneak attack on all hits but the first, since your target won’t be demoralized yet. Using dazzling display to make him shaken first isn’t advisable since you’ll give up an entire full round of actions. Scout’s charge and Skirmisher complements this build well. Also using the surprise round to get that first hit is also possible, but won’t help you once you need to fight your second enemy.
>>The Hero!<<
Hero’s display+sap master+sap adapt+weapon focus+dazzling display+performing combatant+shatter defenses (7 feats)
(+master combat performer ‘adds free action instead of swift’)
Whenever your hero does any of these things, you may make a combat performance as a swift action. The combat performance includes an intimidate check to all those who are within 30ft and can see and hear you. Either way you make the performance check, you’re allowed to demoralize.
-Successful Charge
-Successful combat maneuver
-Successfully rolling and dealing maximum damage (excludes sneak attack)
-Successfully cast Energy spells and effects
-Successfully Feints
-Successfully knocks an opponent prone
-Hit with more than 1 attack in your round
-Successfully confirms a critical hit
-Successfully is the first one to damage anyone in the battle
-Successfully enters rage (only 1/battle)
-Successfully reduces a combatant to 0 or fewer hit points
This build works identically as the enforcer build if your start by charging.
This build will grant you the ability to sneak attack on all hits but the first, since your target won’t be demoralized yet. Scout’s charge and skirmisher complements so that you can deal sneak attack on that first hit. Unless you’re charging or otherwise does something which enables a combat performance, you won’t be able to demoralize your foes.
However, the hero’s intimidate as part of his performance will affect all within 30 ft, while the enforcer will only demoralize those he just hit.
>>The Boar Style<<
Boar Ferocity+sap master+sap adapt+Improved Unarmed Strike+Boar Style+weapon focus+dazzling display+shatter defenses (8 feats)
This build will, just like the enforcer and hero build, grant you the ability to sneak attack on all hits but the first, since your target won’t be demoralized yet. Scout’s Charge and skirmisher complements so that you can deal sneak attack on that first hit.
Weapons to deal nonlethal damage with: unarmed strike, sap, whip
... stopped here.
Please continue my quest on finding all ways :)
/TorresGlitch
@TorresGlitch
That is a good resource. Thank you.
Here's an odd question: why do prone enemies still get a dexterity modifier? Or for that matter when standing from a prone position? It seems like they shouldn't (which would make the Trip Rogue viable), but apparently that isn't the case. (That said, tripping a foe and then moving through their space to flank them is a viable maneuver.)
Here's an odd question: why do prone enemies still get a dexterity modifier? Or for that matter when standing from a prone position? It seems like they shouldn't (which would make the Trip Rogue viable), but apparently that isn't the case. (That said, tripping a foe and then moving through their space to flank them is a viable maneuver.)
Thematically: Because you can still wriggle about artfully. Also rolling around on the ground to avoid attacks even at a disadvantage is one of the more cinematic things in a fight.
Mechanically: Being tripped is already bad, bad news. -4 to your ac, can't move, draws AOOs to stand up... you're already in bad enough shape, no need to take away the dex bonus.
Yes, but the rogue doesn't get his or her sneak attack damage against that foe. Which means there's not too much reason for a rogue to trip someone.
@Honorable Goblin
How does enforcer help the build?
As ArmouredMonk13 said, Enforcer gives you free action intimidate to demoralize while dealing non-leathal damage (which you can do at no penalty with a scimitar and Blade of Mercy trait). The build could reach full potential a level earlier if you adjusted the FCB... first two levels in skills for Perform (Dance), then you'd get a bonus talent at 8th level. You have to move feats and talents around to something like this:
01: Feat: Enforcer
02: Talent: Finesse Rogue
03: Feat: Dervish Dance
04: Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
05: Feat: Shadow Strike
06: Talent: Offesive Defense
07: Feat: Dazzling Display
08: Talent: Minor Magic (Ray of Frost?)
08: Bonus Talent: Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
09: Feat: Arcane Strike
If you're not worried about getting Arcane Strike, you could drop Minor Magic in favor of something else or even use FCB exclusively on skills or HP.
EDIT: Yes, this set up reduces the effectiveness at 1st and 2nd level, but you save a talent (Ninja Trick (Combat Trick)) and come fully on-line at 8th rather than 9th.
Furthermore with no iteratives there is no incentive to not just get a flank for SA.
You can't always flank. It's not so simple as using a move action.
my issue with a lot of the rogue builds is they depend on highly specific gimmicks gained by means of item, multiclassing, or race
it's not that ranged rogues are viable, it's that low level Ifrits with fire sight and smokesticks are viable, or rogues whom dip a level in oracle for mist sight and obscuring mist
it's not that Dex based rogues are viable, it's that Dex based rogues with agile weapons, mythic weapon finesse or dervish dance are viable. either requiring mythic tiers, a niche weapon property, or proficiency in a highly specific weapon gained by either race or multiclassing
it's not that Str based rogues are viable, it's that Str based rogues whom multiclass into a martial class and utilize the proficiencies and features of that class, are viable
either way, the rogue has no way to be viable within their own class, they depend on methods outside of their class, feats, equipment, race, or multiclassing
it's not that feinting rogues are viable, it's rogues with moonlight stalker feint and a minor cloak of displacement that are viable
it's not that intimidate rogues are viable, it's rogues with a means to deal nonlethal damage to trigger enforcer, that are viable. typically, depending on a sap or similar weapon
all of the effective rogue builds, to keep up, depend on gimmicks outside of the rogue class
which is why most of the rogue substitutes are better than the rogue, they can actually use their class features to trigger the desired circumstances
it's not that Dex based rogues are viable, it's that Dex based rogues with agile weapons, mythic weapon finesse or dervish dance are viable. either requiring mythic tiers, a niche weapon property, or proficiency in a highly specific weapon gained by either race or multiclassing
This just isn't true.
I'll post it again, but a one handed rapier feint buildat 20 With a +5 keen rapier
Feint check (rogues takes 43)
Feint + opportunist + arcane strike = +30/+30 for 11d6+10 damage each hit
Flank + opportunist + arcane strike + haste = +33/+33/+33/+28/+23 for 11d6+10 damage.
The difference in damage between an agile rapier and a normal rapier at this level is 48.5 vs 58.5 per hit. This rogue is in no way dependent on agile to do damage.
Furthermore with no iteratives there is no incentive to not just get a flank for SA.You can't always flank. It's not so simple as using a move action.
if you fight outdoors, that CAN, be true
but if you fight indoors or underground, expect flanking to be as simple as using a single move action
thing is, most of the published adventuring material, is either indoors or underground because they writers need an excuse to justify the use of traps, the storage of treasure, and the use of certain specific highly popular monsters one couldn't really use well outdoors above ground in broad daylight. from goblins to drow.
it's not that Dex based rogues are viable, it's that Dex based rogues with agile weapons, mythic weapon finesse or dervish dance are viable. either requiring mythic tiers, a niche weapon property, or proficiency in a highly specific weapon gained by either race or multiclassing
This just isn't true.
I'll post it again, but a one handed rapier feint buildat 20 With a +5 keen rapier
Feint check (rogues takes 43)
Feint + opportunist + arcane strike = +30/+30 for 11d6+10 damage each hit
Flank + opportunist + arcane strike + haste = +33/+33/+33/+28/+23 for 11d6+10 damage.The difference in damage between an agile rapier and a normal rapier at this level is 48.5 vs 58.5 per hit. This rogue is in no way dependent on agile to do damage.
10 damage per hit may look small, but that damage increase adds up, and allows you to drop a planatar or marilith in a single flanking hasted full attack.
if you fight outdoors, that CAN, be true
but if you fight indoors or underground, expect flanking to be as simple as using a single move action
I believe you have that backwards.
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I believe you have that backwards.if you fight outdoors, that CAN, be true
but if you fight indoors or underground, expect flanking to be as simple as using a single move action
I believe so as well. I tend to find 1-2 melee fighters get to stand at a door or choke point to fight, while everyone else stands back.
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I believe you have that backwards.if you fight outdoors, that CAN, be true
but if you fight indoors or underground, expect flanking to be as simple as using a single move action
I've found the specifics vary widely. If you are fighting underground in a dungeon crawl style dungeon, with inexact walls and maps, and a lot of rounded edges, then everyone is often really close together and its not hard to get around to flank. In buildings, the same can be true, but there are more corners to back into and there is a high likelihood of large chambers where the enemy can be more spread out, it could take 2 moves to get to the enemy, or the enemy could just hide in a corner. Same goes for outdoor fights, but with less corners to back into. At least, in my personal experience.
10 damage per hit may look small, but that damage increase adds up, and allows you to drop a planatar or marilith in a single flanking hasted full attack.
Oh I agree, it's not small. But it in no way decides whether or not the rogue is viable.
If your rogue is broken its not the classes fault, it's because you're using it wrong.
To be fair, you can't do a lot of the examples you just posted.
Edit: And worse, the rogue isn't much if any better at it than anyone else.
It's not a dungeon bashing class.
Considering the parent system to Pathfinder was called "Dungeons and Dragons" you want to reconsider building a class that has trouble in dungeons.
As Espy Kismet pointed out "I tend to find 1-2 melee fighters get to stand at a door or choke point to fight, while everyone else stands back." as rogue doing suicidal tumbles past the choke point so that you can do noticeable damage makes you a liability to the group not an asset.
There are times when you can't flank and there are times when you shouldn't flank.
You could change the race back to human on your sample and take focused study to gain two more skill focuses. One at 8, one at 16.
Most of the build here require at least two skill focus feats before level 10. So this is tempting.
But that has to be balanced against not having low-light or darkvision as a racial ability. Which is very important to rogues.
Actually, you can take weapon focus in the crossbow, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses. Add in rapid reload and rapid fire, and you can spend a round to intimidate everyone in 30 feet and then use Shatter Defense next round for your first attack... and all later attacks and attacks next round would be Sneak Attack. Best of all, you can do this by level 9.
Or you can do this with the short bow and not bother with rapid reload. I mean, you can use Dazzling Display with a damn blowgun if you want. Nothing in the rules says you can't.
Oh, and as a side benefit, your mass Intimidate? Gives all your foes a penalty to hit and damage for at least one round. In essence you hit them with a Prayer effect.
Mind you, you can use Dazzling Display with a melee weapon as well. So a dual-dagger wielder can have fun with his two daggers, and then start stabbing next round. All this without once having to flank. ;)
@Tangent101
Build it!
His implications is that you want the rogue to go toe to toe with monsters. This isn't what rogues do. Play a fighter or other full BAB class.
The purpose of this thread is not to conclude that all rogues should play the loot monkey in "Dragon Crown".
Potions of Darkvision cost 300gp and last 3 hours. The rogue relies on items a lot. Potions work for everyone and for the things that don't the rogue has UMD.
I prefer the wand option. It's only 90 gold per use instead of 300.
The question is "Can the rogue class be functional without archetypes?".
Goal posts:
1) Do noticeable damage. Monsters shouldn't able to ignore you.
2) Be a decent skill monkey
3) The goal is not to make a rogue that is the best at something. The goal is to make a functional character that is rarely useless in fight.Restrictions:
1) No strength build rogues
2) You can't assume flanking
3) Must have a viable range attack option
4) 20 point buy
Today I played PFS with a character that may fit your requirements. It was a mostly rogue level 9 build that (with some control from a wizard) carried a level 6-7 part through a 8-9 tier scenario. It would get surrounded by 3 mooks or 2 bigger creatures and obliterate them within 2 rounds.
It's not my character, so I can't give a detailed build. Also, I'm responding to the OP without reading beyond the first page, so forgive me if this has been discussed already.
It was a Tengu rogue 7/urban barbarian 2 two handing an Elven curve blade. It used weapon finesse, power attack, and an agile property on the sword. It also had a beak attack. It would used the barbarian controlled rage to buff dex (I think that put its dex at 24 or so) and take a +7/+2 swing with the sword and +2 peck with the beak. (Edit: that's base BAB without rage.) The sword was keen as well as agile, so he threatened crit quite often. The base, non crit damage with the sword was decent (15-20 average) and the beak was a nice follow on attack (8-12 I think?). It would crit about once a turn or once every two turns, and get 30-40 damage on that hit. Throw in the sneak attack damage when we flanked with it, add in a crit threat, and the damage was sick.
The player said the build had started off slow, especially since he didn't take barb levels until later, but it really came into its own when he got power attack. I imagine it took him a while to buff the sword too, but it still must have had an ok strength (14?) for the beak and playability at low levels.
EDIT: Also, he had celestial mail and his AC was respectable (26-28). He was getting hit, but not often. He also could have someone bop him with a wand of reduce person that he carried for additional AC with no change to attack/damage. Luckily the wizard had a fairy dragon familiar. Saved our bacon.
His implications is that you want the rogue to go toe to toe with monsters. This isn't what rogues do. Play a fighter or other full BAB class.
To be fair, your likely to go into combat. Some time ago there was a whole thread on the value of a rogue that actually devoted himself to skill monkeying instead of combat. Familiar faces.
And yet the sentence before you chose to quote I stated the rogue is a support melee class.His implications is that you want the rogue to go toe to toe with monsters. This isn't what rogues do. Play a fighter or other full BAB class.To be fair, your likely to go into combat. Some time ago there was a whole thread on the value of a rogue that actually devoted himself to skill monkeying instead of combat. Familiar faces.
That would be awesome! If he actually did melee support as a class ability in combat. There might be a class that excels at that but its not the rogue.
That would be awesome! If he actually did melee support as a class ability in combat. There might be a class that excels at that but its not the rogue.
I actually agree with this. Rogues make poor supports outside of UMD. Rogue is a class that benefits from support.
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Where did this "Rogues aren't good enough" thing I keep seeing come from? I'm reminded unpleasantly of the non-stop "Blind-In-The-Left-Eye VERSUS Blind-In-The-Right-Eye WITH SPECIAL GUEST Just-Plain-Blind" arguments over class balance they used to have (and still do?) in World of Warcraft. My best guess is people expect Rogues to be another kind of Fighter. They're not. They never were. They were never supposed to be. Ali Baba =/= Beowulf.