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So back in March of this year, I got involved in a Ninja build thread that convinced me to go with a strength based build for my first ever Ninja. I was reviewing some old private messages today and was reminded about it. This is my "how's that workin out for ya" update. It's a PFS character, but I haven't seen that make any difference in the build up to this point.
Str 16(14+2), Dex 14, Con 14(13+1), Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14
HP 52, AC 16, Init +8
Fort +6*, Ref +9*, Will +7* (*+2 against enchantment spells/SLA's)
Alternate Race Trait: Ancestral Arms (Elven Curve Blade)
Traits: Elven Reflexes (+2 Initiative), Indomitable Faith (+1 Will)
Feats and Ninja Tricks:
1. Improved Initiative (F)
2. Invisibility Trick (T)
3. Power Attack (F)
4. Weapon Training: Elven Curve Blade (T)
5. Extra Ki (F)
6. Flurry of Stars (T)
7. Iron Will (F)
Equipment of Note: +2 Elven Curve Blade (currently saving for +3), Adamantine Heavy Mace and Mithral Siangham (for DR), Masterwork Shuriken (with silver and cold iron shuriken for DR), MW Lamellar armor, Cloak of Resistance +2, Dayfinder, Shard of Greed (Haste 1/day), Gloves of Reconnaissance, Sleeves of Many Garments, assorted wands (CLW, Disguise Self, Magic Missile, Mirror Image) and wayfinder with Clear Spindle Ioun Stone slotted.
Kyras is designed as a master of disguise, party scout, and skirmisher. He can try disarming mechanical traps but it's probably not the party's best option. Occassionally Kyras teams up with another player's trap specialist Rogue, and the pair make a very good front end team, particularly if there's a barbarian along too. In battle, he's a skirmisher. If he wins initiative, he'll flurry of stars anyone within close range or possibly use his wand of magic missile for sneak attack if the opponent is 30 feet away. His primary form of attack is two hand power attacking with an elven curve blade. Once he gets flanking, he'll use a ki point to full attack with a second hit.
Melee: (Sneak Attack +4d6)
+2 Elven Curve Blade: +11 (1d10+6) / PA: +9 (1d10+12)
Adamantine Heavy Mace: +9 (1d8+4) / PA: +7 (1d8+10)
Mithral Siangham: +9 (1d6+3) / PA: +7 (1d6+7)
Ranged:
MW Shuriken: +8(1d2+3) / Flurried Sneak Attack: +6/+6/+6(1d2+3+4d6)
Wand of Magic Missile* with Sneak Attack: UMD(+12) DC20, - (1d6+4d6)
*Kept in a spring loaded wrist sheath and only used when initiative is won
The biggest lesson I've learned so far is that the strength build is a lot easier to play than the TWF build. Another player plays a TWF trap specialist rogue, and I've had the chance to compare. My ninja tends to get sneak attack slightly more often due to Invisibility Trick, but tends to do more damage overall. The TWF Rogue will tear a bad guy apart if he can get a full round action while flanking, but spends a round or two getting into position. My strength build gets the same damage the first turn as it does the second turn (assuming I have either flanking or surprise in the first round). The TWF build tends to murder enemies on round 2 then needs to reposition itself so it can do the same thing on round 4. By then, the fight's usually over. Having a strength build allows Kyras to move around a lot more while still getting good hits in. Since I can still contribute with an okay static damage, flanking becomes preferred but not essential. The entire playstyle feels easier and much more worry free.
The second biggest lesson, and one of the earliest I had to learn, is when not to use Invisibility trick. Unless you're playing some sort of tricked out Ki monster, the Ninja doesn't have enough Ki to use inivisibility for steady sneak attacks. The best use of Ki in a fight is getting a second hit in when you have a flanking on a full round action, or doing a flurry of stars when you win initiative. Invisibility trick tends to be more useful outside of battle than in it. It's a great last ditch defense, and a good way to get battlefield positioning - though I get spotted by perception more than I thought I would, and See Invisibility is becoming more common as the character levels up. Invisibility Trick's best use by far is for scouting. If you can get enough information to let your party ambush the bad guys, you've won three quarters of the fight already.
Another big lesson was that all characters - especially sneaky scouts with delusions of melee ability - need an "Oh Crap" button. In Kyras's case, it's a potion of gaseous form. He loves his potion of gaseous form. It's incredibly reassuring. The next time he's trapped in a narrow hallway between two large demons with 10 foot reach and See Invisibility at will, he can slam a fist down on the "Oh Crap" button and get out of there.
Another thing I would have done as early as possible would have been to spend 2 prestige points to pick up a masterwork +3 composite longbow for a decent range option. Kyras is seriously short ranged, and that's bitten him a few times during his career. I'd have to check, but I think the reason I didn't was because he's not proficient. This reason alone is a strong argument for going full elf instead of half elf at character creation, though it would have thrown off the point buy spread. As it is, I've learned that I definitely need some form of medium to long range option and will be getting one ASAP.
Also, I'd have bought something other than a Siangham. I needed something for piercing and silver DR types, and the siangham seemed as good as any option and was flavorful to boot. Being a light weapon, I envisioned it as an ideal holdout/concealed weapon. I wasn't aware of silversheen at the time, and mithril is based on weapon weight so that was a concern as well. The minus to damage from not being able to two hand it has been an annoyance. Nowadays I'd definitely go with a silversheen version of something bigger.
When Kyras started, he had armor expert with the intent of getting an agile breastplate. I retrained this for Indomitable Faith at level 6. I realized that unless I committed a large amount of funds, Kyras's AC was not going to keep up. He bought a wand of mirror image sometime around level 4 and has been using it to great effect ever since. The money that would have gone to buffing AC has gone to higher priority things like improving chances to hit and will save. He carries a couple potions of shield and barkskin for when he needs it.
This was my first serious melee character, and one of the greatest lessons I learned from it is the importance of the Will save. Kyras has a great personal hatred for the Hold Person spell and similar paralyzing effects. I didn't do anything to address it early on, and his early levels consisted of a +1 or +2 will save. This led to me spending a surprising amount of fights either bored out of my mind from having a paralyzed character or (more recently) fighting against fellow party members. Trading Armor Expert for Indomitable Faith and picking up Iron Will has seriously helped. Since we're getting on in levels, I've picked up a clear spindle ioun stone to protect against domination as well.
The Ki is a pretty huge deal for this class. A lot of Kyras's heavy contributions have been from Ki use. It's made me wary of going straight Rogue. While not the most overpowered thing out there, the Ninja is definitely a class worth playing. The flavor is great, and I get plenty in battle and out of battle moments to shine.
I'm interested in seeing what happenes next level when Kyras gets iterative attacks. Full attack actions are going to be a much bigger deal. I'm not sure how it's going to effect the playstyle just yet. For the moment, I feel confident that the build will persevere. Kyras just needs to be on the lookout for magic items that will help him adapt to any situation. He has potions that cover a lot of possibilities, but still needs to find a way deal with ethereal and flying opponents. He has a couple potions of fly, but those are way too expensive for regular use.
Just out of curiosity, why the 12 in Int? Seems as though you could have put that in Wis to help with the Will save, or even used it elsewhere. While it nets you an additional Skill Point every level, the ninja is anything but starved for skill points. Not knocking the decision, just curious as to whether or not there was another reason that I am simply missing.
Most importantly, glad to hear you are enjoying it!
Have you thought about the holy enchant, using poisons and also getting a wand of abundant ammunition?
Gargs: I really wanted the skills. :) He puts all his favored class bonuses in skills too. I've been taking enough of them that he's only going to catch up to his goal (maxing everything I want to max and one in every other class skill) in three levels. By then he'll be level 10 so I'm not sure putting the favored class bonus in HP would matter. I'd put them in the half elf alternative bonus for rogue but hero labs won't let me and it's not worth editing manually.
Cao Phen: I'll have to double check that. If true, it'll be a real bummer. :(
Cubic Prism: No, I hadn't. After looking at the wand, I will be getting one immediately. Thank you!
The holy enchantment looks pretty interesting too, particularly in season 5 scenarios. I'm hoping to get the sword to +3 or +4 so it can start negating DR. Cold Iron often works on demons as well as Good does, from what I've seen. The weapon doesn't count for DR if it's +1 with two levels on an enchantment, right?
Poisons have always seemed meh to me. I wouldn't turn it down if I found a few vials or a stinger, but I don't purchase them. So far I think I've encountered poisons with Kyras once, maybe twice. They seem too expensive to use regularly. Perhaps if he bought a poisonous pet or something?
I've got a character I'm about to do Eot10 with and only use a +2 weapon. I haven't felt concerned about DR all that much (granted I'm playing a monster of a Paladin, but even ignoring smite I'd say I'm ok). I'd rather have Holy on my weapon as there are plenty of ways to bypass DR outside of +'s.
Buy the purple worm poison(I think that's the one that tanks a stat with a high DC), then use abundant ammo. It should replicate the poison on every piece of ammo. Make use of that poison class ability, I think it's worthwhile.
I'll have to reread the poison rules to see how they work. If you can stack effects of a single poison, it could get Nasty very quickly. Even if not, it presents a ranged debuff method against multiple foes that doesn't require sneak attack. Sounds like a good idea.
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Here is the list of what you can retrain:
- Ability Score Increase
- Archetype
- Class Feature
- Class Level
- Feat
- Hit Points
- New Language
- Racial Trait
- Skill Ranks
- Spells Known
As for poisons in PFS, you can not increase the DC by applying multiple stacks of a single poison to a weapon. Waht you can do is buy a Serpent's Belt, which increases the DC by 4 for all poisons.
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If you're under the effects of a poison and get hit with the poison again the DC increases by 2 and the duration is altered.
This is correct. Though the worrysome issue is that you have to reapply another poison to the weapon or have a secondary poisoned weapon on standby. Poisons are expensive too, though fun times when something gets hit with it.
Cao Phen: the plan would be to only use poison when I've also had time to tap the pouch with a wand of abundant ammunition. It would only be a tactic I could use when I can prepare, and I would likely spend the whole fight throwing stars to debuff everyone with the poison. Situational, but another valid weapon in the armory for a character who is trying to be ready for anything and contribute however he can.
I think at this point (level7) Kyras is probably past the point where keeping a poisonous pet would be helpful. He doesn't have the handle animal skill, either. Still, it's a good thought and one that I'll keep in mind for recommendation to anyone starting a Ninja. Part of the point of this thread was to provide some direct feedback on the build to anyone thinking of going this route. Any ideas would be welcome. :)
Sir Thugsalot: Thank you for the Urban Barbarian tip! I have another character who just might make use of it. Heck, Kyras might take the dip at level 11 (once he gets Invisibility Blade at 10, which is effectively a capstone power in PFS).
Flurry of Stars was not the focus of the character. It's something I stumbled upon during play. I wasn't planning on taking it originally. A Dex build could indeed make better use of it, given the accuracy problem. For Kyras, it's a nice side trick and probably his biggest way to get damage (the +3 strength is nice for that part), but not a show stopper if he doesn't get to use it.
Outside of PFS, a dex based Flurry/TWF build who uses a quick runners shirt to move into position on round 1 and Flurries could be brutal! It's a 1/day trick, but definitely solid by level 3 and gets stronger as the build levels.
The Holy enchantment does seem like a good idea the more I think about it. I won't have one sword that can deal with everything, but I already have multiple weapons for various DR so it doesn't matter much. The big bonus of the Holy enchantment to me is the damage. Every bit helps.
Last night Kyras ran up against a Worm That Walks, and ended up in one of those "I can do nothing to aid this encounter" situations. The party was playing up (not our choice) in a PFS scenario, so we were level 6 and 7 characters (1 level 8) going into an 8-9 tier. We got rid of the Worm's mooks (7 wights) okay and our mage was able to keep the Worm from doing much damage to us, but it was flying and had DR 15/- with 10 Regeneration. Kyras snuck up on him and unleashed what would have been an awesome amount of damage via Flurry of Stars, but DR defanged the attack and regeneration completely dismissed it. Someone handed our barbarian a potion of fly, but his build was based on multiple attacks so DR got us again. With the terrain, none of us could manuever well enough to gang up on the Worm with the barbarian. It was one of those encounters where neither side can effectively hurt the other.
I don't think there's any way that Kyras could have done better in that one. I think we did quite well against a CR+3 or CR+4 encounter. The experience did underline the need to focus on damage as you level up though.
Well Kyras now has a +3 ECB. I found out that while I can upgrade as the character goes in society, I can't replace an existing +1 with an enchantment.
Can anyone think of anything I'm missing that a level 7-10 character usually has? I'd like to save for something that can grant flight (or maybe boots of haste) but want to make sure I have the essentials covered.
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Outside of PFS, a dex based Flurry/TWF build who uses a quick runners shirt to move into position on round 1 and Flurries could be brutal! It's a 1/day trick, but definitely solid by level 3 and gets stronger as the build levels.
I had a STR:7/DEX:26(urban-raging) samurai who TWF'd wakizashis; his full-attack DPR with Agile/Keen/Furious weapons was absolutely top-drawer, among the highest in the game for melees. 1d6+epicassloads of numeric damage, all doubled on frequent crits.