Then your miles away and someplace extra safe?Ah, so the plan is to run away from the battle and forfeit the stakes.What you mean your entire party *isn't* capable of casting Contingency?
@Ilja - The difference is one is specified by a Spell. If there was a spell that said "The King you attack with it may seek revenge." I might indeed argue that.
You're basically saying that killing folks is okay and should have no repercussions. Come on. You're smarter than that.
The spell lets you call and outsider and bind it to your will. These outsiders are sentient creatures and are just as much people as you or I. Saying that you can freely treat them poorly and circumvent them seeking revenge by murdering them or orchestrating their demise without any repercussions whatsoever is kinda ridiculous dontcha think?
I wasn't meaning to imply that a 10 foot pole is the answer to wrestling the giant. The answer rather is being creative in how you play. If you can't go at it head to head, try from the side or behind as a cliche way of approaching things.The problem here is that high level casters don't have to rely on cliche's or cleverness to accomplish any of those things. They actually *CAN* out wrestle a giant (effortless I might add, you'd be surprised how a caster can get their STR if you think any listed STR in the Bestiary is high). A high level caster can also out climb a giant lizard with monk levels and dive deeper then anything without magical protections can. To add insult to injury, a high level caster can do all three of these things in a given a day (some preparation may be required, but high level casters have ways to cut down that prep time to very low.)
They can also end the Kraken's existence as a standard action for good measure. High level casters are playing a completely different game then the "regular" Pathfinder game.
@ Orfamay Quest: To expand on the problem, at high levels, caster is always the correct choice, even when what your looking for a is a damage dealer or tank and can trivialize many more encounters.
High level preparation caster. High level spontaneous caster is more limited, though usually does have a spell that can be helpful, but not always.
Wouldn't the same apply to killing the king in front of his guards? There is no rule stating the guards of a king will attack someone who kills the king...
2) Having read the rules of Planar Binding I can assure its quite safe assuming you make you sure to off the outsider before the service expires. The spell states: "The creature might later seek revenge." To pretend that suddenly other creatures will come looking for you would actually go outside the rules. So prove to me that summoning then offing the outsider isn't safe RAW.it's called common sense
kill the king in front of his guards, the guards will retaliate
kill a powerful outsider, other powerful outsiders of the same faction, will investigate their disappearance and avenge their death
Not really. Again there's literally infinite of them so you should be able to get away with this for a ridiculous long length of time, even more so if you get them conveniently killed during the duration of your Planar Binding. Sure Tal'kilys died, but hey he agreed to it, so no revenge reason. Ultimately, what your suggesting is balancing the spell with outside effects, even though the spell itself lists the drawback. Again this isn't the same as attacking the king in front of his guards, that is attacking a king in front of his guards, feel free to make up what happens, but casting Planar Binding is casting Planar Binding and it tells you what the drawback is.
Edit @ Scavion: Yes, I am arguing that realistically a spellcaster should be able to conveniently kill off countless outsiders that they have bound with Planar Binding without attracting undue attention. Any attention that could possibly be attracted will realistically be without resources to investigate retaliate, and even in the extremely rare event an outsider is 1. aware of the disappearance, 2. cares enough to investigate, 3. has the resources to successfully investigate, and 4. has the resources to actually be a threat to the caster, this is unlikely to result all that often and when it does be generally very solvable (and hey I like XP and treasure that comes to me).
TL,DR: Stop trying to balance mechanics with roleplay.
Planar Binding tells you what a drawback is, not the drawback.
It lists a very specific drawback, I don't see why we should assume drawbacks that aren't mentioned. (Again I think we agree that people who argue this brings down a major force on the caster are trying to balance the spell via fiat and that that is a terrible way to balance.)
Planar Binding tells you what a drawback is, not the drawback.It lists a very specific drawback, I don't see why we should assume drawbacks that aren't mentioned. (Again I think we agree that people who argue this brings down a major force on the caster are trying to balance the spell via fiat and that that is a terrible way to balance.)
It is a terrible way to balance.
The listed example is an adventure hook that a DM must invest time into creating, not a balancing factor of a spell. Very few DMs want to create new adventures every time a caster binds or summons a high level outsider to balance a spell.
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I know I'm a bit late pointing this out, but uh.. I'm going to anyway. A grappling centered monk doesn't need a stone giant to be drunk to bring down the jank-hammer.. I've seen a level 6 tetori with a CMB legitimately high enough that it could chokeslam and curbstomp a stone giant on a CMB roll of 9 and that's without being buffed. Consider for a moment what happens if someone in the party slaps buff on it. Needing a roll of 9 suddenly goes down to needing a 7 with bull's strength. Drops to needing a roll of 5 if someone else slaps on enlarge person. What had been a grapple CMB of 21 quickly becomes 25. At that point a roll of 13 will allow you to put even a stone giant elder down. Your CMD will be so high that it has no chance of getting loose once you grab it. As such, you're all but assured the additional +5 on your next roll due to the creature having failed to get loose. Pin'em and good game, they aren't getting loose. Try to counter it with an incorporeal? Give it a few levels and it'll start grappling ghosts.
Bearing all that in mind... well, things get a lot more stupid if you're fighting stuff appropriate for your level. Fact is, CMB is a lot like attack in that it very quickly outpaces the CMD of things you fight just as attack, as has probably already been pointed out numerous times, is very quick to outpace AC.
I know I'm a bit late pointing this out, but uh.. I'm going to anyway. A grappling centered monk doesn't need a stone giant to be drunk to bring down the jank-hammer..
Now try that with a rogue, which was my point. You can enlarge him just as easily and raise his strength, too.
If you've built a grappling monk, you want chances for epic bouts like this and you'll be bored facing ogres.
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I can´t see a wizard cornered after been able to cast spells like contingency.
It's funny how forum wizurds always have a contingency that applies to whatever situation they find themselves in, ain't it?
I guess the justification is that if Schrödinger's wizurd doesn't have to bother to pick out his spells memorized until he needs it, why should he have to pick out the conditions of his contingency until he wants it.
Wizurds are quite obviously the most powerful class in the game, provided you ignore any of the rules that limit them.
It's funny how forum wizurds always have a contingency that applies to whatever situation they find themselves in, ain't it?
A contingent time stop does apply to any situation.
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It's funny how forum wizurds always have a contingency that applies to whatever situation they find themselves in, ain't it?A contingent time stop does apply to any situation.
Aside from the fact that time stop doesn't work, what is the condition for the contingency to activate that applies in every single incident but doesn't trigger when unwanted?
I liked when this thread was about high level math and not high level spellcasting.
To be fair, spell casting is the main reason high level math breaks down...
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And it doesn't work as Contingency only applies to level 6 and lower spells.It's funny how forum wizurds always have a contingency that applies to whatever situation they find themselves in, ain't it?A contingent time stop does apply to any situation.
Everyone knows that rulebook stuff only applies to non-wizurds.
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To reiterate, if I were a wizard I might very well have a rule: No combats ever, if I were not the initiator and planner of that combat. I fight when and where I decide, and on no other terms. So a port in a contingency would make total sense. I don't care if it only looks like one small kobold, this approach has given me 20 levels and 3 centuries of life, so no reason to change now. Empires come, empires go. Adventurers come, adventurers go.
Why play it as a game, if you are going to go to such lengths to ensure that it is story hour? Does the rest of your group call you six months later when they've finished the campaign so that you can sit in for the first 30 minutes of the first session of their new campaign?
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I liked when this thread was about high level math and not high level spellcasting.To be fair, spell casting is the main reason high level math breaks down...
I disagree, the math breaks down due to scaling of modifiers outpacing the growth of typical target values (DC, AC, etc.) which make it non-trivial to challenge high level players without either guaranteeing failure for some of the group or guaranteeing success for others. In many cases this is not an issue (e.g., only your scout needs to be able to sneak past the sentry), but in common cases it causes concerns (e.g., everyone needs to be able to hit the dragon). This is the commonly held belief. Certain buffing spells do impact this issue, but the discussion has gone off-topic and is now focused on the narrative impact of spellcasters (which also significantly impacts high level play, but was not the original topic of discussion).
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I think one aspect of Pathfinder at high levels is that, at 12th level, the party can confront and kill an adult red dragon. At 22nd level, they can kill something that is as vastly more powerful than a red dragon as an adult red dragon is from a single worg. For a 20th level party, killing a demigod, maybe even making a credible (though probably doomed) attempt against an archdevil, is a possibility. In a 20th level adventuring party would be made up of people like Elric, Perseus, Rhialto the Marvelous, and Galadriel... after a quick trip to Magic Walmart to gear up. They've been doing things for six or eight levels that aren't what you would call normal. Forget "fantasy superheroes," we are venturing into "fantasy Justice League" territory at that point. A 20th level fighter in magic armor with a flying shield and a magic sword might as well be Thor or Iron Man, and defeating Thanos is on the menu.
While I have some questions in my mind about how some of that stuff works in actual play, one of the nice things about the Mythic Adventures rules is that mythic tiers actually allow you to template the PCs, stepwise, for adventures that go beyond even that. A 10th level party with mythic tier 1 or 2 are a real bunch of dragonslayers, while a 20th level party at tier 10 are, basically, demigods and immortals.
But let's say you want to dial it back. Use the slow advancement rates. Use half treasure, so treasure doesn't pile up due to slow advancement. Plan on ending the campaign around 12th level (which works out to about the level of Luke Skywalker or Conan). It's not stingy or mean, it means stopping to watch some of the scenery before you whiz by. There is a whole lot of game from 1st to 12th level if you slow it down. Every masterwork weapon, every +1 shield will still count for something.
So, the first thing is, when talking about high level games, and the math of high level games, is to accept that the game is different. Unfailing saves is not a bug, it's something characters of that ability have. A fighter who never misses is not more of a "problem" at high levels as a wizard with magic missile is at 1st. It's just the rules of the game, at that level. Accept immunities. Accept that almost every character has a big, all but irresistible kaboom. Build enemies appropriately, but try not to kill the whole party at once. Aim for the softer saves. Take bites out of the tastier characters. Play dirty. But all in the spirit of fun.
A fighter being able to drink a vial of poison and shrug it off is not bad math, it's just the ability level of a 16th level fighter. That's where we are.
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I mean if I were an arcane caster, and we had an encounter we couldn't win overwhelmingly, the first thing I would do is put my hand on a metamagic rod of quicken, and port out. If things don't go swimmingly in the first round, again port out. "The quarterback didn't like the set of the defense, so he calls time out."
As I see it you have pretty much one of two ways to deal with this:
1) Some kind of dimensional anchor or similar effect, in other words disallowing that option. And there are some counters to this available as well.
or
2) Some kind of time limit thing, like a race to the McGuffin.
I'd like to stop and make note of how this sort of ignores a lot of how higher level play (in my mind) should be different than lower level play in terms of the stakes and nature of the game. Not doubt Anzyr or someone else will be along shortly to tell me that I'm either playing wrong or that this is house ruling, but until then allow me a moment of indulgence.
At lower levels (lets say 1-8) you tend to have relatively direct linear adventures with relatively low stakes. Maybe it's a dungeon crawl, maybe its take this item from point A to point B, but generally speaking the PC is a small fish being ordered around or directed around the big pond by an outside force. This is especially noteworthy in terms of PC interactions with powerful NPCs (especially friendly ones), in that a PC in a sense has a fall back to that powerful figure. They can take shelter behind that figure, to go that figure for information or equipment, and so forth. They are adventurers. While it's possible for the PCs to be the biggest fish in a tiny pond (e.g. a hamlet) generally speaking they are small fries compared to other powers in play. Most importantly, generally speaking their reach is limited to what they personally can accomplish.
In the middling levels (lets say 9-12) you start to see a shift in PC interactions, where PCs are no longer errand boys, but powerful individuals in their own right. They are capable of doing things well beyond the average populace, and only exceptional forces are a threat to them. Motivations, in my experience, have to start to change, and the leavers used on PCs have to change. Instead of their mentor telling them to do something he's asking them to do something for him. Instead of answering a general summons for adventurers they are specifically sought out for by powerful patrons. The desire for wealth from a character perspective loses its hold because each PC has items worth tens of thousands of GP and can retire at any time. Most importantly, they start to accumulate allies, servants, and students that are weaker than they are. Perhaps they are climbing hierarchies in organizations. Overall though, an important shift is that instead of touching the world only through what they do personally they can also influence the world with their allies, associates, and servants.
At high levels (13+) the PCs should (in my opinion) be much more than a bunch of random guys that kill things and take their stuff. These characters have gone through hundreds of encounters and perhaps dozens of adventures. They've had so much time to flesh out as characters and build relationships that their footprint in the world should go well beyond being a simple 15th level wizard out for himself. Even if they are completely amoral or selfish they should still have plots, underlings, and resources beyond what they can personally do that are worth protecting to him. If they're getting jumped in a dangerous fight it isn't by some half-assed random encounter, but instead by foes they've accumulated that are probably strike them when leaving isn't an option. Perhaps they are attacked at the kings coronation, perhaps the bad guys start targeting their allies, servants, and students if they can't touch the party because it keeps porting away. The point is that the game should have far more depth than a wargame in which the most tactically viable action is the only thing that matters.
To provide an example, my party was attacked by a group of powerful outsiders when they returned to the small village they call home. Most the party was out of armor. Many people had gear stowed. No one even thought to teleport away because doing so would leave the outsiders to slaughter the people of the village that the party was dedicated to protecting. Tactically the smartest move was to teleport away and come back. Within the context of the game that carried an unacceptable opportunity cost though.
To provide another example, my party was jumped by a bunch of ghouls and other undead while traveling by land a while back. We got fed up with the encounter and teleported away. A month later the crypt of the party fighter's dead brother was raided and his body was animated (presumably by the same group). Was the party able to teleport away from the first encounter? Absolutely, but things weren't that simple because there were leavers beyond 'you have to stand and fight' used against the party when they did. I find that to be a very refreshing aspect of high level play, rather than some bug of the game.
That's just an opinion though. Overall my point is that in most high level games there are far more options than 'dimension anchor or time limit' to keep the party in a fight if you aren't putting things in wargame like terms.
At high levels (13+) the PCs should (in my opinion) be much more than a bunch of random guys that kill things and take their stuff. These characters have gone through hundreds of encounters and perhaps dozens of adventures. They've had so much time to flesh out as characters and build relationships that their footprint in the world should go well beyond being a simple 15th level wizard out for himself. Even if they are completely amoral or selfish they should still have plots, underlings, and resources beyond what they can personally do that are worth protecting to him.
I share this perspective. Darth Sidious was probably about 13th level when he thought, "Okay, so what if I set in motion a plot to exterminate 98% of the Jedi and restore the Sith as rulers of the Galaxy? Step one, hm..." This is the level where wizards start creating spells named after them. A paladin of this level is the grandmaster or champion of the world's largest and most organized order of holy knights. A rogue of this level starts pondering the practical benefits of stealing a liche's phylactery, or whether it's possible to actually steal immortality.
I think one prove of how broken a high level could be is that some level 20 builds can face chtullu CR30 1x1
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The two-handed fighter archetype utilizing a scythe and some very carefully chosen feats and items could pretty much insta-jib Cthulhu. Mind you, this is assuming that you A.) go first and B.) have had a plan in place to negate the mental middle finger you have a chance to get for being near him.
It is also possible to get a tetori monk's CMB so ridiculously high that it could toss Cthulhu around like a little girl. ... And yes, I'm aware that the creature's CMD is 97 normally, or 99 versus sunder and bull rush.
I think one prove of how broken a high level could be is that some level 20 builds can face chtullu CR30 1x1
Until you play that scenario and roll a 1 on your save versus his Unspeakable Presence. I've seen people roll consecutive 1s as well. Rerolls don't always save you.
Cthulhu can win versus the one level 20 character if they roll a 1 isn't much of an argument in Cthulhu's favor.
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Irrelevant. The point is even high level play isn't filled with guaranteed wins and Real Ultimate Powa (TM).
Oh yes, that is definitely true. S'why I said your best bet would be a character capable of taking Cthulhu down with one attack. He'll reform shortly thereafter so you better have some damn good saves. ... But then, having good saves means nothing if as mentioned above, you roll a 1.
At a range of 305 feet no less. Doing 819 damage. With a 50% miss chance.
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There is actually a combination of race, feats, and magic items that will in fact nullify nearly everything Cthulhu can do to you. People greatly overestimate that fight. In any case, you are correct. There is no way to make it "a sure thing." ... But being able to one shot him, provided the blow lands, is a pretty good way of having a chance. Consequently, this also assumes that you win initiative. If you don't? Good game.
As stated it's far from a sure win, but that's about the only way I know of to take Cthulhu down 1v1. Even then if you fail to one-shot him, you're probably dead. He'll grapple you and that's that. Okay... I do know of a second way, but that caster build is so broken that even Cthulu doesn't deserve to deal with it.
Sure!
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Well, the literary Cthulhu was pretty much one-shotted with a boat, so a 20th level guy with a magical scythe seems fine to me. There are usually specific combinations that are inordinately effective against any given monster at any given CR. At high level play, you embrace that.
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Well, the literary Cthulhu was pretty much one-shotted with a boat, so a 20th level guy with a magical scythe seems fine to me. There are usually specific combinations that are inordinately effective against any given monster at any given CR. At high level play, you embrace that.
Literary Cthulhu reformed if I remember right. Apparently his regen wasn't stopped by boat type damage.
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Okay. I did some actual math rather than mere supposition, and arrived at the conclusion that the build I concocted would not be enough to drop him instantly. You could get him down to 143 to 163 HP in one hit assuming average rolls, and depending on whether or not you bypass his DR. However, I did find a way for a player character to get earth glide. So drop your auto-crit on him and submerge, thereby completely screwing most of his abilities. If DM doesn't have him fly off ya just end him from underground because lol earth glide. Yeah, he'll reform, but you can sit down there immune to his gas crap because you're inside the ground. Soon as he reforms, you resume the beatdown. The major issue is whether or not you fail a will save in the meantime. If you do, it's over; if he grapples you, it's over. In fact, it's over if he even so much as touches you. This all balances precariously on the dice gods not giving you the shaft.
Being able to nail something for 631 average damage on a whim is broken to the point that it's ridiculous, but it requires a lot of sacrifices of important stats. A more balanced, dare I say better made, character could expect something more in the range of 300 damage inflicted at will in this manner, still a giant chunk of anything's health pool.
I mean if I were an arcane caster, and we had an encounter we couldn't win overwhelmingly, the first thing I would do is put my hand on a metamagic rod of quicken, and port out.
End result, all your capable opponents are alive, have seen what one of your more powerful magical items looks like, know where you keep it and know that you follow the same strategy every time.
When I GM, I don't design encounters built around the party's weaknesses unless the NPCs have a way of knowing about them. This strategy would result in a lot of encounters where your enemy are prepared for you.
1) Some kind of dimensional anchor or similar effect, in other words disallowing that option. And there are some counters to this available as well.
Again, I find it cheap for a GM to try to just always negate the PCs abilities... unless said PC has a reputation across the planet as "Greg the Teleporter" in which case you'd better believe every single enemy of his would find a way to get dimensional anchors.
2) Some kind of time limit thing, like a race to the McGuffin.
I find almost everything has a time limit if your PCs are involved in the campaign world.
To reiterate, if I were a wizard I might very well have a rule: No combats ever, if I were not the initiator and planner of that combat. I fight when and where I decide, and on no other terms.
Played to it's full extent I don't think it would make a very good PC concept. It'd be brilliant for an NPC, but I think a PC would find it too boring.
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As much as I think the high level game could use more testing and limitations, I generally do the math myself to make it work. No one knows better than the DM what the players are capable of. If you want to make the math work out to a challenging encounter, you have to do it yourself.
I spend the time to plan out the percentages for hits, save DCs, and the like even with full buffs. It takes a lot of work. I can't stand easy encounters, especially at high level. Two round fights against enemies that are supposed to be the equivalent of Smaug or Sauron for lvl 20 characters isn't very interesting to run as a DM.
I want my players to feel like they accomplished something when they reach the pinnacle level. The rules aren't going to stop me from making that happen. If I have to add 10 strength and con to the Great Wyrm I do. If I have to give the ancient Balor levels and artifact sword, I do it. Anything to make the fight challenging.
Another thing about high levels is the magic item treadmill. That's always a fun topic.
The required cloak of resistance, ability enhancement items, ring of protection, and amulet of natural armor as well as constantly enhanced weapons and armor is pretty annoying. I try to spread out their acquisition over a few levels. Some players get their +5 items earlier this way, but at least I don't have to give them all out at certain intervals to everyone.
As much as I think the high level game could use more testing and limitations, I generally do the math myself to make it work. No one knows better than the DM what the players are capable of. If you want to make the math work out to a challenging encounter, you have to do it yourself.
I spend the time to plan out the percentages for hits, save DCs, and the like even with full buffs. It takes a lot of work. I can't stand easy encounters, especially at high level. Two round fights against enemies that are supposed to be the equivalent of Smaug or Sauron for lvl 20 characters isn't very interesting to run as a DM.
I want my players to feel like they accomplished something when they reach the pinnacle level. The rules aren't going to stop me from making that happen. If I have to add 10 strength and con to the Great Wyrm I do. If I have to give the ancient Balor levels and artifact sword, I do it. Anything to make the fight challenging.
Sounds like a lot of work, but something I'd do for key battles in my campaigns. Just curious -- would you aim for a 50/50 chance for things to "hit" on average? And what do you shoot for, with attacks that the PCs have decided to specialize in? Good saves vs. bad saves, and so on?