I didn't tell anybody who belongs to what community, I described a general concept of community self recognition.
'Critical mass' is a vague concept, and one who's numeric or proportionate value may vary based on the community.
If one is encountering significant cognitive dissonance in community assumptions or norms,
that's a sign that one is not of the community, which isn't a bad thing per se,
and as I wrote, differences to norms can and are able to be 'negotiated' to fit within a new broader community norm.
My sole point was that merely 'delurking' and posting something does not inherently engender mutual recognition of commmunity belonging.
This is not to mention that there is rarely any singular community, rather than network of sub-communities,
but when faced with dissonance with expressed community norms, claiming instant membership of said community seems to fall flat...
Either engage and negotiate around said community, or embrace "outsider"ness re: that community whole-heartedly,
when faced with community norms that aren't compatable and/or a community you find unimportant/interesting, that seems a better use of time.
Goblin Squad Member
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No offence was intended virtually all groups will never be anything but a tiny fraction of a % of the total game population. Hell even goons in Eve with their 11k members are a mere 2% of Eve playersJust looking at the community roll call thread and the number of posters here tells me that if anyone can lay claim to be the voice of the community it is probably the Pax lot (and no they are just a small blip as well).
Just to catch any comments before they get started, Pax is not offended by this comment.
It is a truth we have discussed internally since we began trying to get our own membership interested. Honestly we have had a lot of the same hurdles in convincing our members to join, but we are making some advances.
Yep, I was just making sure other people didn't think unnecessarily that we would take offense to such a statement.
We know our lot, and we can't have a competitive game without competitors.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I didn't tell anybody who belongs to what community, I described a general concept of community self recognition.
'Critical mass' is a vague concept, and one who's numeric or proportionate value may vary based on the community.
If one is encountering significant cognitive dissonance in community assumptions or norms,
that's a sign that one is not of the community, which isn't a bad thing per se,
and as I wrote, differences to norms can and are able to be 'negotiated' to fit within a new broader community norm.
My sole point was that merely 'delurking' and posting something does not inherently engender mutual recognition of commmunity belonging.
I disagree with that premise, still. If it helps though I think there are a number of people that have inadvertently recognized Steelwing's validity as a community member. I don't think that is a needed prerequisite, but if it helps it is there.
That's great, but "a number of people recognizing Steelwing's validity as a community member" is different from somebody/anybody delurking and posting something/anything. The latter focuses on unilateral actions, while membership in community only has meaning when it is mutual. (Not that there aren't meaningful and valuable interactions possible between insider and outsiders)
I never inveigh'ed against Steelwing's membership in whatever community was posited/being discussed, I just sought to draw attention to the importance of that mutuality rather than automatic result of unilateral actions. If Steelwing wants to address a different community than that invoked by those confronting him with certain community norms, that is great, but just stating that he is automatically part of any community just by posting here flies in the face of what communities means: a response of "it doesn't matter what the community thinks, i'm part of the community" just can't hold up. Maybe people addressing him with certain assumptions are marginal to this community, maybe the community itself is marginal, that doesn't bear on his memberhip in said community, which depends on having an agreement with the community.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't believe I have ever mentioned a number in anywayYou said your circle is about 10-25 people large, right?
You said that 2 people were 20% of your group, and you mentioned 1 and 14, and you said that you wanted to play all at the same time, and you said that you knew everybody personally.
Play as coyly as you want, but you've said a lot more than you intend to. You've also ceased to be vague, interesting, or even very credible. We've got goonswarm members, we've got BoB members, we've got EvE Uni members, and we've got at least two larger communities represented just among backers of the Tech Demo KS.
I thought by delurking I was joining the community.No, that's not really sufficient. To join a community, you must be recognized as a member by the existing community, which requires demonstrating characteristics of an 'insider' as opposed to an 'outsider' to the satisfaction of a relevant portion of the community. Until you accomodate to the community norms, you are just an outsider somehow interacting with community members.I disagree that admittance into this community is by some majority consensus.
I also disagree that a community member by necessity needs to adhere to the opinions and norms of their peers.
The only reasonable rule is "Don't be a jerk". That is what the mods have asked of us, and that is the only fair judgement.
Those weren't suggested as community rules; that was the description of the definition of 'member' of a community, as opposed to an 'outsider interacting with community members'.
I didn't tell anybody who belongs to what community, I described a general concept of community self recognition.
'Critical mass' is a vague concept, and one who's numeric or proportionate value may vary based on the community.
If one is encountering significant cognitive dissonance in community assumptions or norms,
that's a sign that one is not of the community, which isn't a bad thing per se,
and as I wrote, differences to norms can and are able to be 'negotiated' to fit within a new broader community norm.
My sole point was that merely 'delurking' and posting something does not inherently engender mutual recognition of commmunity belonging.
This is not to mention that there is rarely any singular community, rather than network of sub-communities,
but when faced with dissonance with expressed community norms, claiming instant membership of said community seems to fall flat...
Either engage and negotiate around said community, or embrace "outsider"ness re: that community whole-heartedly,
when faced with community norms that aren't compatable and/or a community you find unimportant/interesting, that seems a better use of time.
Once upon a time long ago in a land far far away the community knew the world was flat....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I accept Steelwings unwritten application to join the dysfunctional community that is the PFO posters at Paizo.com. Because I've said it, then it must now be a universally accepted community norm that Steelwing is a part of this community. Also, I'll put some more words here to further muddle what exactly it is that I'm trying to say, which even I'm not sure of (help... me...).
At any rate, as a "community" we suck, so I'm not sure why anyone would even want to be accepted by us. Steelwing speaks many things that I agree with, though, so I at least, would like to welcome him with open arms, hi-5's, and many of da beers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's great, but "a number of people recognizing Steelwing's validity as a community member" is different from somebody/anybody delurking and posting something/anything. The latter focuses on unilateral actions, while membership in community only has meaning when it is mutual.
I am saying that a number of us have mutually recognized Steelwing's validity as a community member. If this majority is one that is selective and not represented by the "number" I expressed then I guess it still does not fit your definition.
Regardless I disagree with the premise, but if you are looking for mutual recognition such a track record can easily be found in the replies of this thread.
Or to be more blunt, I believe in you Tinkerbell!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't believe I have ever mentioned a number in anywayYou said your circle is about 10-25 people large, right?
You said that 2 people were 20% of your group, and you mentioned 1 and 14, and you said that you wanted to play all at the same time, and you said that you knew everybody personally.
Play as coyly as you want, but you've said a lot more than you intend to. You've also ceased to be vague, interesting, or even very credible. We've got goonswarm members, we've got BoB members, we've got EvE Uni members, and we've got at least two larger communities represented just among backers of the Tech Demo KS.
Those weren't suggested as community rules; that was the description of the definition of 'member' of a community, as opposed to an 'outsider interacting with community members'.I thought by delurking I was joining the community.No, that's not really sufficient. To join a community, you must be recognized as a member by the existing community, which requires demonstrating characteristics of an 'insider' as opposed to an 'outsider' to the satisfaction of a relevant portion of the community. Until you accomodate to the community norms, you are just an outsider somehow interacting with community members.I disagree that admittance into this community is by some majority consensus.
I also disagree that a community member by necessity needs to adhere to the opinions and norms of their peers.
The only reasonable rule is "Don't be a jerk". That is what the mods have asked of us, and that is the only fair judgement.
I disagree that definition is applicable in this case. Put simply I disagree it properly defines game communities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree with that premise, still. If it helps though I think there are a number of people that have inadvertently recognized Steelwing's validity as a community member. I don't think that is a needed prerequisite, but if it helps it is there.I didn't tell anybody who belongs to what community, I described a general concept of community self recognition.
'Critical mass' is a vague concept, and one who's numeric or proportionate value may vary based on the community.
If one is encountering significant cognitive dissonance in community assumptions or norms,
that's a sign that one is not of the community, which isn't a bad thing per se,
and as I wrote, differences to norms can and are able to be 'negotiated' to fit within a new broader community norm.
My sole point was that merely 'delurking' and posting something does not inherently engender mutual recognition of commmunity belonging.
I suppose I started the 'join the community' thing so I should explain. It is about your own choice. You joining them and you deciding that this a place you are going to stay, what others say or think about you doesn't decide if you have joined the community. You decide yourself to join the community , in this case we are joined together to crowdforge PFO , a rather long term commitment.
I don't believe I have ever mentioned a number in anywayYou said your circle is about 10-25 people large, right?
You said that 2 people were 20% of your group, and you mentioned 1 and 14, and you said that you wanted to play all at the same time, and you said that you knew everybody personally.
Play as coyly as you want, but you've said a lot more than you intend to. You've also ceased to be vague, interesting, or even very credible. We've got goonswarm members, we've got BoB members, we've got EvE Uni members, and we've got at least two larger communities represented just among backers of the Tech Demo KS.
I call bull on this. Provide me a quote where I used figure in anything except as an example (hint that means something that does not necessarily relate to reality in any particular instance)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lol, I'm glad to see there is a new pot stirrer on the forums, I can take a break. As for Steelwings reluctance to hand out info on his group, that is understandable being he has stated he comes from Eve Online.
I have said often enough, PFO will be looked into by EvE players. If they come in large enough numbers, and they bring EvE cultural norms with them, PFO will bend to that insurgent culture.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Recommendation:
Steelwing is no worse than some of us, and different from all of us. He will stand up for himself. Whether or not he represents a dozen or ten thousand is at this point irrelevant. What matters is that he is bright, speaks his mind, and may contribute a critical element the rest of us might pass over.
True he could be more constructive and open to the thoughts of others, but I cannot fault him for wanting to play his cards close to his chest. We do have among us some pretty sharp blades.
Hopefully, if he has the brass to stick around, he will pitch in when it is time to solve a problem.
Let us rise above and overmaster our emotional impulses and choose to grow more diverse with his inclusion. He might be the one who solves the problem we didn't spot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It matters a great deal to me, a group with 500 people that doesn't want us to know who they are? All the other groups are forthcoming about who they are. For someone to make a claim like this and then not back it up is not acceptable, why WOULDN'T a group want other people to know who they are?
It shouldnt. Here is what should matter to you. Trying to figure out what type of game play his group is into. Then will they actually come to the game.
The only reason you should care about that is because 500 people is either a great number of people you can ally with, are neutral with, or who will be your enemy.
Thats it. No person here should ever be expected to explain themselves to other players. If this group doesnt want to tell people who they are thats 100% totally fine, by demanding that they you we are the ones looking like the bleeps here.
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I will relent a little to explain myself somewhat to meet notmyrealname part way.
The reason not to mention the group I am part of is that we are a corporation in an Eve null sec alliance. There are other Eve players here and we prefer to not necessarily start off the game with emnities from Eve being carried over.
If and it is a big if we come to this game we prefer to play it from the point of view of the interactions here rather than being automatically at odds with someone else because we kicked their butt in Curse at some point
(Quick note Curse is intended as an example and it is not indicative necessarily of any fleet action in which we have taken part)
On top of that there is other information that can be gleaned such as member activity cycles etc. There are many good reasons for Eve groups to keep quiet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The reason not to mention the group I am part of is that we are a corporation in an Eve null sec alliance. There are other Eve players here and we prefer to not necessarily start off the game with emnities from Eve being carried over.If and it is a big if we come to this game we prefer to play it from the point of view of the interactions here rather than being automatically at odds with someone else because we kicked their butt in Curse at some point
+1 for truthiness
I've actually had people join Pax and end up leaving once they realized we played EVE on the opposite side of a war. Sucks because we've lost a few good people over the years, because of it, but it makes 100% total sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Steelwing: just an FYI
If any alliance manages to achieve Kingdom stature, expect it will not be any particular mechanical advantage of nationhood that will inspire awe, but the fact that they were actually able to hold it all together in the face of the rest of us.
That will inspire awe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will relent a little to explain myself somewhat to meet notmyrealname part way.
The reason not to mention the group I am part of is that we are a corporation in an Eve null sec alliance. There are other Eve players here and we prefer to not necessarily start off the game with emnities from Eve being carried over.
If and it is a big if we come to this game we prefer to play it from the point of view of the interactions here rather than being automatically at odds with someone else because we kicked their butt in Curse at some point
(Quick note Curse is intended as an example and it is not indicative necessarily of any fleet action in which we have taken part)
On top of that there is other information that can be gleaned such as member activity cycles etc. There are many good reasons for Eve groups to keep quiet.
Actually , I am a spy from your enemy and now I know EXACTLEY who you are , we will be coming for you, or not.
Here at PFO we don't think of anyone as enemies, they are 'game content'.
I will relent a little to explain myself somewhat to meet notmyrealname part way.
The reason not to mention the group I am part of is that we are a corporation in an Eve null sec alliance. There are other Eve players here and we prefer to not necessarily start off the game with emnities from Eve being carried over.
If and it is a big if we come to this game we prefer to play it from the point of view of the interactions here rather than being automatically at odds with someone else because we kicked their butt in Curse at some point
(Quick note Curse is intended as an example and it is not indicative necessarily of any fleet action in which we have taken part)
On top of that there is other information that can be gleaned such as member activity cycles etc. There are many good reasons for Eve groups to keep quiet.
Actually , I am a spy from your enemy and now I know EXACTLEY who you are , we will be coming for you, or not.
Here at PFO we don't think of anyone as enemies, they are 'game content'.
We will take the same view should we come as we do in Eve. Enemies and friends are ever fluid your allies in this war may be the ones you are killing in the next. People who do not take wars personally will certainly have an advantage over those with a burning desire to get even.
Though it should always be remembered that revenge is a dish best served both cold and unexpectedly
and after a long long time after the offense when they no longer even remember the slight.
indeed :)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Lol, I'm glad to see there is a new pot stirrer on the forums, I can take a break. As for Steelwings reluctance to hand out info on his group, that is understandable being he has stated he comes from Eve Online.
I have said often enough, PFO will be looked into by EvE players. If they come in large enough numbers, and they bring EvE cultural norms with them, PFO will bend to that insurgent culture.
The most they can do is create a dominant subculture with EvE norms, unless they cause all significant groups of people to adopt their own culture.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The most they can do is create a dominant subculture with EvE norms, unless they cause all significant groups of people to adopt their own culture.Lol, I'm glad to see there is a new pot stirrer on the forums, I can take a break. As for Steelwings reluctance to hand out info on his group, that is understandable being he has stated he comes from Eve Online.
I have said often enough, PFO will be looked into by EvE players. If they come in large enough numbers, and they bring EvE cultural norms with them, PFO will bend to that insurgent culture.
@All
Meh
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Goblin Squad Member
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The most they can do is create a dominant subculture with EvE norms, unless they cause all significant groups of people to adopt their own culture.Lol, I'm glad to see there is a new pot stirrer on the forums, I can take a break. As for Steelwings reluctance to hand out info on his group, that is understandable being he has stated he comes from Eve Online.
I have said often enough, PFO will be looked into by EvE players. If they come in large enough numbers, and they bring EvE cultural norms with them, PFO will bend to that insurgent culture.
Numerical differences between EE population, compared to OE population will establish that EE will be the sub culture and OE will eventually dominate the culture. 14 - 18,000 will not hold sway over the 100 to 200,000+ that OE will likely bring in. I'm hoping that the OE number I'm using is conservative, but I believe my EE number might be a bit generous.
The OE horde is not going to give a rat's arse what culture we believe we have created during EE. This game is being billed as a settlement vs. settlement Open World PvP sandbox, and the horde will come here looking to spill blood and take what we have. I'll bet you my finest Green Hat on that!
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The most they can do is create a dominant subculture with EvE norms, unless they cause all significant groups of people to adopt their own culture.Lol, I'm glad to see there is a new pot stirrer on the forums, I can take a break. As for Steelwings reluctance to hand out info on his group, that is understandable being he has stated he comes from Eve Online.
I have said often enough, PFO will be looked into by EvE players. If they come in large enough numbers, and they bring EvE cultural norms with them, PFO will bend to that insurgent culture.
Numerical differences between EE population, compared to OE population will establish that EE will be the sub culture and OE will eventually dominate the culture. 14 - 18,000 will not hold sway over the 100 to 200,000+ that OE will likely bring in. I'm hoping that the OE number I'm using is conservative, but I believe my EE number might be a bit generous.
The OE horde is not going to give a rat's arse what culture we believe we have created during EE. This game is being billed as a settlement vs. settlement Open World PvP sandbox, and the horde will come here looking to spill blood and take what we have. I'll bet you my finest Green Hat on that!
I never said that they couldn't become a dominant subculture, which would relegate the 'old guard' to a minority subculture. I said that it was possible for different cultures and communities to run the same software.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I get what you are trying to say, but I have to correct one word usage error.
There is no such thing as a "Dominant Subculture", that is an oxymoron.
All significant groups will adopt the dominant culture or they will risk falling into becoming a less significant sub culture.
Ryan Dancey's "Bigtown" vs. "OtherBigTown". Bigtown beats small village every time.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I get what you are trying to say, but I have to correct one word usage error.
There is no such thing as a "Dominant Subculture", that is an oxymoron.
All significant groups will adopt the dominant culture or they will risk falling into becoming a less significant sub culture.
Ryan Dancey's "Bigtown" vs. "OtherBigTown". Bigtown beats small village every time.
Meh. Terminology arguments don't go anywhere productive, and this is heading straight towards a SRS BSNS social justice conversation that I frankly don't have the energy for and don't expect anyone here to take seriously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Meh. Terminology arguments don't go anywhere productive, and this is heading straight towards a SRS BSNS social justice conversation that I frankly don't have the energy for and don't expect anyone here to take seriously.I get what you are trying to say, but I have to correct one word usage error.
There is no such thing as a "Dominant Subculture", that is an oxymoron.
All significant groups will adopt the dominant culture or they will risk falling into becoming a less significant sub culture.
Ryan Dancey's "Bigtown" vs. "OtherBigTown". Bigtown beats small village every time.
Finally! So much this^
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming TN is not an option for nation cores I see the options for those wanting to allow good and evil as:
LG-LN-LE (Focused Lawful)
CG-CN-CE (Focused Chaotic)For specializing evil: LE-NE-CE
For specializing good: LG-NG-CG
And non specializing (edit: working the corners):
LN-LG-NG
LN-LE-NE
NG-CG-CN
NE-CE-CN
Dragging this up from a couple of pages back, I edited the spacing a bit just to keep the quote box smaller.
I think the settlement ranges and the national focus that Charlie George maps out here actually could be a strong selling point for not allowing TN nations. With TN, all nations look pretty much the same. Without TN, each budding nation has to specialize - and each nation will have a different flavor from the next.
Even nations with the more popular national alignments, perhaps LN and NG, will differ based on the number of settlements, and their populations and weights. A LN nation could have 1 LN capitol and 3 LE towns, for example, or 1 LN capitol and 1 LG and 1 LE town. The two LN nations could feel very different.
I'd think it would have some side effects - when one nation falls, some of its settlements may be able to be absorbed into another nation, but others will have to be razed or converted. Also, the core and the mix of settlements would also allow allies and enemies to make some predictions of what they might face in the field.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming you could "buy" training time from other nations, that might work as an interesting system.
No one can specialize in everything. If you want more freedom, you either have to form a meta-mega-nation or buy that training from someone in your trade agreement ledger.
Both options have their cost, and both options have their advantages. What it does stop is an easy monopoly. I could easily buy in to exactly that type of system.
With TN, all nations look pretty much the same. Without TN, each budding nation has to specialize - and each nation will have a different flavor from the next.
Sure, if you assume there is no other mechanics related to settlement/nation alignment... Except we pretty much already know there WILL be such mechanics, even if we don't know the implementation. Settlements will be able to build training and buff-type buildings based on their alignment, and similar effects can be expected for Nations. Those effects can also selectively apply only to members or any ally who have a congruous Alignment, further giving meaning to a Settlement/Nation with Declared Alignment X but majority members Alignment Y vs. those where the Declared and majority Alignment are in congruity.
All that doesn't sound like Settlements will all look alike... TN Nations may have the broadest alignment population, but will miss out on a range of other stuff, and other Settlements should have no problem attracting players because they can offer that other stuff that TN can't, other stuff which means more power and success for any individual PC that is eligible to join a compatable Settlement.
Am I the only one here who ever liked Slytherin?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Am I the only one here who ever liked Slytherin?
Nope, Slytherin had merit. Harry himself actually defended it to his son in the closing of the novel. That son was named in part after Severus Snape, who was possibly just as important to the defeat of the Dark Lord as Dumbledore himself.
So yeah, I'm a Dork.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I liked *some* Slytherins, just as I liked *some* members of each of the houses. It showed the benefits of each of the focuses (bravery, wit, cunning, dedication), but also the dangers of the excesses of such attributes. And that natural skill doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a likeable person.
Anyhoo, what was the topic? I'm not talking about a Harry Potter MMO. Last time I started, I wasted a weekend thinking it through...
Sure, if you assume there is no other mechanics related to settlement/nation alignment... Except we pretty much already know there WILL be such mechanics
Provide a quote showing any such thing is being considered. Once more I will say to you there is no evidence because nothing in the blogs hints at any such thing. This is just hope on your part backed up by absolutely nothing.
When we are at a point in design where they haven't even told us what the benefits of settlement alignment may be it is a bit of a reach to believe they have even thought about any benefit of being a nation.
To give you a broad hint why I don't really expect much in the way of mechanical benefit for being a nation.
A nation is two or more settlements. It therefore has at least twice as much access to resources and probably twice as many soldiers as any settlement wishing to fight it.
You believe it will be considered a good idea therefore to give it even more mechanical advantages over and above its superior numbers and resources? Frankly it would be madness and a sure way of forging the blue doughnut as kingdoms would sit there sucking in settlements like blackholes till there were only 2 nations left
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Goblin Squad Member
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If as Ryan Dancey has described, a settlement is the EvE equivalent of an Alliance, than perhaps too much emphasis is being placed on settlements?
Part of the problem with EVE is that the mega alliances have become too much of the focus, and the only way to really compete is to join one. Now in EVE the vastness of the playing space is so huge, in comparison to PFO, you could eek out a fairly good existence without every having to deal with big alliances or going into Null sec. In PFO, if a good portion of the 15 EE settlements form a block, there maybe little to do but to deal with them.
I don't believe we have ever been told which comes first, the company or the chartering settlement?
We have never been told, what happens when the founding company of a settlement, pulls out?
What happens if the settlement manager goes on a three week vacation, and leaves no steward in his stead?
What happens to sponsored companies who suddenly find themselves with out a home settlement, and there are no others that provide that upper tier training?
PC run settlements being the sole provider of upper tier training may not be the best, sandbox, ruite for certain alignments or class roles in the short, middle or long term.
Placing access to upper tier training, solely in the hands of a few players is ceding too much power to that few. They could in fact manipulate or inhibit the growth of your player base by denying access to class roles GW has developed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Placing access to upper tier training, solely in the hands of a few players is ceding too much power to that few. They could in fact manipulate or inhibit the growth of your player base by denying access to class roles GW has developed.
I think if there's even a tiny hole in training at least one other settlement will rush in to compete for that gold, and often make a recruitment bid.
That's why the idea that you can only train at the settlement you belong to (a single post from someone official I read somewhere but I'm not a re-quoter) is bogus. With DI limits no settlement can possibly offer tier 3 training for everything and competition among settlements with similar interests for player investment leads to a soup of meaningful interaction.
Following a strategy of offering what's missing two or three settlements might unplanned, organically, develop a mutual support relationship because between the three of them they offer any similarly aligned characters everything they could need.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One idea to get the ball rolling, is a Goblinworks-run Settlement at the beginning that becomes the "1st-BigTown". They could even have one of the pathfinder deities in mortal form as the de-facto leader/ruler/director of the settlement already Level 21 in all the available skills (!).
Goblinworks could then recruit some players to help run the settlement and act a Neutral superpower in the game that allows differen smaller settlements to grow, and if one becomes too big too soon, "1st-BigTown" can knock them down to size, led into battle by their "god-leader" (no doubt: Think Sauron in LOTRs battle scene).
Then eventually as the different power matrices develop, the gods could leave and 1st-BigTown could carry on as a regular settlement.
I know there's always the ideology that sandbox = player-run, it's the duality between the government-intervention vs free market until the economy becomes complex enough for the free-market to take care of itself?