Sorry if this has already been answered; I couldn't find the answer.
Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)
Bold emphasis mine. How exactly is it different from a 1-round cast time?
In the Combat chapter under "Full-Round Actions" and "Cast a Spell"
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Again, bold emphasis mine. Also, if answers could come with sources, that would be great. Thanks!
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They're different because it says so. Think about it.
A spell that has a cast time of "1 round" (example, enlarge person) takes a full round action to use. The cast time is still "1 round", but you would need to declare a full round action to cast that spell. Then, the spell effect happens just before the beginning of your next turn.
Using a metamagic with a spontaneous caster is also a full round action, but isn't a 1 round cast time. Applying intensify spell to shocking grasp as a spontaneous caster would be a full round action, but you still get to immediately use that spell.
Cast time and the type of action one takes are two separate things. Making a full attack is also a full round action, for example. Think of it like one thing being a time increment (1 round cast time) and the other being a use of available actions in a turn (move, standard, or full round).
A spell with a casting time of 1 round manifests the round after you start casting.
A spell with a casting time of 1 full round action manifests that same round.
Correct and concise.
They're different because it says so. Think about it.
... the question was "How exactly is it different from a 1-round cast time?" not "Why exactly is it different from a 1-round cast time?" Your condescending tone is unappreciated (and unwarranted considering you misread the question).
Anyway, where exactly does it say "Applying intensify spell to shocking grasp as a spontaneous caster would be a full round action, but you still get to immediately use that spell." I'm looking for a book and page number. Because saying that two things aren't the same doesn't tell me how they're different and the only official thing I have to go on for when a full-round action spell would take effect is the Combat chapter of the Core Rulebook under "Full-Round Action" and "Cast a Spell" which clearly says "It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell." It says nothing else to indicate that a metamagicked spell would work differently. I know they are different somehow from the Metamagic section of the Feats chapter, but nowhere have I seen specifics of how. People have claimed what you have claimed, but I've never seen it. That would be why I asked that answers "come with sources".
Also, if answers could come with sources, that would be great. Thanks!
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You provided the sources yourself, if you want to take a moment to read it.
A full-round action time is not a 1-round casting time.
A 1-round casting time spell takes a full-round action to cast, but also takes the time up until the start of your next round.
A full-round action casting time takes your full round to cast, but manifests at that time because it is not a 1-round casting time, but a full round action casting time.
Note that this is using the fact that the two trerms are not interchangeable:
A full round action casting time is not the same as a 1-round casting time.
A 1-round casting time spell requires using a full round action to cast, but takes more than the full round action to complete.
The issue you are having is saying that full round casting time and 1-round casting time are the same thing. They are not.
And we won't even go into using a split round full round action for casting.
By the way, along with when the spell goes into effect, the other major difference is when each type of spell can be interrupted. Full-round casting time spells can only be interrupted with Readied actions or Atacks of Opportunity. A 1-round casting time spell can be interrupted during any and all turns between the end of the caster's turn and the beginning of their next turn, because they are still casting.
No, the issue I am having is that nowhere in the Core Rulebook does it say "A full-round action casting time takes your full round to cast, but manifests at that time because it is not a 1-round casting time, but a full round action casting time." That's probably because there's no such thing as a "full round action casting time" because 1 round casting times ARE full-round actions. A full-round action is a type of action and not a casting time. Full attacks are full round actions and they resolve in the same round. There is no indication that this is the case with spells. The only thing the core rulebook has to say about this is
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
The Core Rulebook says nothing about full-round action spells that have an original "casting time" of less than 1 round resolving in the same round.
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Casting Time
Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a swift action.A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. [u](This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.)[/u] The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.[/url]
So, as was stated above, a spell with a 1-round casting time takes a full-round action to cast, and comes into effect at the start of the caster's next round. A spontaneous spell modified with a metamagic feat from a 1-action casting time is just a full-round action to cast, and it comes into effect on that action.
It is specifically called out as not being the same as a 1-round casting time, which means it acts like any other full-round action.
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No, the issue I am having is that nowhere in the Core Rulebook does it say "A full-round action casting time takes your full round to cast, but manifests at that time because it is not a 1-round casting time, but a full round action casting time." That's probably because there's no such thing as a "full round action casting time" because 1 round casting times ARE full-round actions. A full-round action is a type of action and not a casting time. Full attacks are full round actions and they resolve in the same round. There is no indication that this is the case with spells. The only thing the core rulebook has to say about this is
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.The Core Rulebook says nothing about full-round action spells that have a "casting time" of less than 1 round resolving in the same round.
Note Bene: Again, a 1 round casting time is NOT equal to a full round casting time, it just includes it inside.
There is no need to clarify something that is not unclear.
A 1 round casting time requires a full round action to cast, but takes 1 round to complete.
A full round casting time takes a full round to complete, but, like a fighter's attack, manifests at the time of casting, during the round.
1 round is not equal to full round. Full round is not equal to 1 round. 1 round includes full round, but is not the same, just like a full round action includes both a standard and a move action, but is not the same as either or both together.
Example: Walking a mile requires that you walk over 5,000 feet, but walking over 5,000 feet is not the same as walking a mile.
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No, the issue I am having is that nowhere in the Core Rulebook does it say "A full-round action casting time takes your full round to cast, but manifests at that time because it is not a 1-round casting time, but a full round action casting time." That's probably because there's no such thing as a "full round action casting time" because 1 round casting times ARE full-round actions. A full-round action is a type of action and not a casting time. Full attacks are full round actions and they resolve in the same round. There is no indication that this is the case with spells. The only thing the core rulebook has to say about this is
A spell that takes one round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.The Core Rulebook says nothing about full-round action spells that have an original "casting time" of less than 1 round resolving in the same round.
The reason it doesn't say anything about full-round action spells resolving in the same round is because that is how actions normally work. the 1-round casting time spells are an exception to that, and so must be called out as an exception.
When you get right down to it, it actually doesn't say anything to indicate that your full-attack should resolve during your turn on the same round. People have told me that's how it works, and I've taken their word for it because I assumed it said that somewhere. It doesn't. I assume the wording is different from the 3.5 wording enough that that was the implicit interpretation, but I don't have my 3.5 books here. The fact is, though, that there's nothing under the "Full-Round Action" section of the Combat chapter that indicates that "that is how actions normally work."
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When you get right down to it, it actually doesn't say anything to indicate that your full-attack should resolve during your turn on the same round. People have told me that's how it works, and I've taken their word for it because I assumed it said that somewhere. It doesn't. I assume the wording is different from the 3.5 wording enough that that was the implicit interpretation, but I don't have my 3.5 books here. The fact is, though, that there's nothing under the "Full-Round Action" section of the Combat chapter that indicates that "that is how actions normally work."
If you take an attack action (standard action), when is it resolved? If you take a full-attack action, when is it resolved?
... when it is resolved in practice does not necessarily mean that the rules support that practice. In practice, most people speed. This is still illegal.
Also, my understanding in 3.5 (which may have been mistaken in the first place) was that when you full attacked, your extra attacks came in at the end of the round. If that was indeed a mistaken impression, then that is the problem. If not, though, I see nothing in the CRB to indicate that things should work differently in Pathfinder.
Note Bene: Again, a 1 round casting time is NOT equal to a full round casting time, it just includes it inside.
Again, there is no casting time called "full-round". There is a casting time called "1 round" which is a full-round action. I never claimed that all full-round actions were 1 round cast times because action types apply to far more than just spells.
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How Combat Works
Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to being the first normal round of combat.
4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.
Actions In Combat
[[table omitted]]
During one turn, there are a wide variety of actions that your character can perform, from swinging a sword to casting a spell.
I don't know 3.5. I can't answer to how things worked there. I do know Pathfinder, and when you make an attack action (standard action, of course) you get to make one attack. When you make a full-attack action, you make all of the attacks to which you are entitled. If you are using natural weapons, you can make an attack with each one. If you are making normal attacks with manufactured weapons, you make all the attacks which your BAB gives you, in order from highest to lowest. If you are using two-weapon fighting, you make all the attacks your BAB gives you, in order from highest to lowest, and all the bonus attacks from two-weapon fighting and from the feat tree, from highest BAB to lowest, but they can be interleaved with the normal attacks. All of this happens during your turn to act, as noted in the prd quotes above.
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... when it is resolved in practice does not necessarily mean that the rules support that practice. In practice, most people speed. This is still illegal.
Also, my understanding in 3.5 (which may have been mistaken in the first place) was that when you full attacked, your extra attacks came in at the end of the round. If that was indeed a mistaken impression, then that is the problem. If not, though, I see nothing in the CRB to indicate that things should work differently in Pathfinder.
You are, indeed, mistaken, and using a badly written rule from AD&D that invoked Initiative, weapon speeds, and a bunch of other, fairly obscure and seldom used at the time, rules.
Now, for cinematic purposes, the things in a turn all happen at once. For rules purposes, and clarity, they all happen in the initiative order.
Given your idea, there, of extra attacks hgappening at the end of the round, then the fighter gets his first attack, the cleric heals the target, then the fighter's iterative goes off, and the target is alive and well.
And how do you handle multiple iteratives? At 20th level, that fighter gets 4 attacks with his main weapon, not counting Haste or a bow with rapid shot and/or Haste, or two-weapon fighting. (Two-weapon fighting, ITWF, GTWF, BAB 20, Haste = 8 attacks, if I am counting correctly; 4 with the main-hand weapon, 3 with the off-hand weapon, and one which can be done with either weapon)
Do monsters with bite/claw/claw/rake/rake all go at once, but the fighter has to go, have something else go, then go again, etc., or does the monster get an attack, someone else goes, then the monster's second attack, etc.?
Sounds like Shadow Run's Initiative Passes, which get boring, quickly, for those people with only one pass. "Hey, you get 4 passes? I have done my one, I'll just take a quick trip to the coffee maker or something. Hopefully, you'll be done by the time I get back."
I don't know 3.5. I can't answer to how things worked there. I do know Pathfinder, and when you make an attack action (standard action, of course) you get to make one attack. When you make a full-attack action, you make all of the attacks to which you are entitled. If you are using natural weapons, you can make an attack with each one. If you are making normal attacks with manufactured weapons, you make all the attacks which your BAB gives you, in order from highest to lowest. If you are using two-weapon fighting, you make all the attacks your BAB gives you, in order from highest to lowest, and all the bonus attacks from two-weapon fighting and from the feat tree, from highest BAB to lowest, but they can be interleaved with the normal attacks. All of this happens during your turn to act, as noted in the prd quotes above.
Thank you for finally quoting something relevant. But yeah, fair enough. I'll assume the way my DM ran things in 3.5 was wrong. That seems most logical.
You are, indeed, mistaken, and using a badly written rule from AD&D that invoked Initiative, weapon speeds, and a bunch of other, fairly obscure and seldom used at the time, rules.
Now, for cinematic purposes, the things in a turn all happen at once. For rules purposes, and clarity, they all happen in the initiative order.
Yup, figured that out, thanks. The rest of your post came off as unnecessarily condescending, but thanks for helping nonetheless.