Goblin Squad Member
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When Ryan mentioned that dragons might possibly be something we could gain control and use of through weeks or months of work done by dozens or more players, it sounded to me a lot like the titans in EVE Online. I was thinking about the differences in the overall game systems though, and how they would impact the ability for dragons to give the same epic feeling as titans did when they first started appearing in the EVE universe.
One huge difference is that in EVE Online you can essentially fast travel or borderline teleport from any location, even in the middle of a hectic battle. It's actually a strategy used by many fleets, or at least it was when I played a couple of years ago. In PFO there's currently no discussion of a system or mechanic that would allow that. So when a dragon enters the field, you won't be able to warp out and come back at a more optimum distance. Instead, either everyone will have to zerg the dragon because there's no hope of escape, or everyone will have to scatter and hope that they arent the ones chased. Is there a problem with that? I don't know, it's something that I'd like to see discussion on.
I got the impression from what Ryan said that certain characters will have to be bonded to each dragon. In EVE Online, anyone with skills to fly a titan can jump into one at any time if it doesn't currently have a pilot. This is another huge difference - if nobody is on that is currently bonded to that dragon, does the dragon potentially just sit there while the settlement around it is attacked? That seems like a pretty huge waste of resources. Again, I'm not sure if there's really a problem with this - maybe part of having a dragon is managing the playtimes to a certain extent of those who are bonded to it, or at least bonding enough people that you're almost sure to have one on when you need them.
I think the idea of having a dragon on the battlefield is awesome, and there's been some talk of other powerful resources like armies of undead raised by necromancers. Maybe a lich, or a devil/angel, etc. Very cool to think about, and I hope there's some way to eventually implement these kinds of things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the best way to counter a dragon would be to befriend a Titan. Then we could see a true dragon vs titan fight. ;)
Seriously though, How epic would it be to see a 70 tall humanoid rampaging over our heads?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd guess our character's mosquito bites are not going to touch a Dragon?
I suspect another Dragon or something else similarly on a comparable level to a Dragon would be required to "neutralize"/combat such a game-changer?
Concerning the skills and using EVE's Titans as a corollary of how a Dragon might fit, would seem a sensible suggestion. I'd guess if there are no "trainers" around, you could let the Dragon just go "batsh*t crazy"!?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If its just one player who controls the dragon then kill him and the dragon becomes hostile to everyone in both armies. You might need to have a spy find out who it is. I like the dragon idea and you could have more monsters as trainable to fight in your army . You build a monster training facility and then pick the type of monster your settlement will use. You could train just 1 dragon or maybe 50 giant bears or something like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd see the need for someone who's bonded to the dragon being the same as the need for someone to pilot the Titan: if you spend all the resources in EVE into making a Titan for your group but have nobody regularly online who's trained to fly it, then you will indeed have a massive waste of resources. Same with the dragons.
I do hope they implements several avenues to "Titan-dom" which lead to epic battles between very different looking armies. A small undead army lead by a powerful lich or mummy added to the ranks of one side, with an adult dragon spearheading the frontlines for the other side. Very cool stuff which would set this game apart.
Another idea for this sort of "huge boost to the army that takes a mountain of preparation" which lends itself to a non-evil magic-centric society (undead army is good for evil casters, not so much for the rest) is preparing an Elemental Swarm-like spell and binding all the elementals to do their bidding, resulting in a small army of Elementals. Obviously wouldn't use the spell directly from the books, but something similar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd guess our character's mosquito bites are not going to touch a Dragon?
I suspect another Dragon or something else similarly on a comparable level to a Dragon would be required to "neutralize"/combat such a game-changer?
Concerning the skills and using EVE's Titans as a corollary of how a Dragon might fit, would seem a sensible suggestion. I'd guess if there are no "trainers" around, you could let the Dragon just go "batsh*t crazy"!?
Our mosquito bites absolutely should touch a dragon. It should just take a lot of them. You may need a squad of veteran characters to deal with a dragon, or perhaps a few squads of less well-trained characters. But this would have to be above and beyond what the dragon team is fielding, otherwise they will just run in and clean you up while you panic and focus on the dragon. Just having the dragon would be like having an extra squad/unit/whatever you want to call it.
I could see siege weapons or defensive fortifications such as a ballista being particularly effective against such creatures. Taking your dragon to a well-fortified settlement would be taking some real risks on seeing it get shot out of the sky. But on the open fields it should wreak some heavy chaos!
I would be very wary about introducing elements that lead to "I win unless you do the same thing I did." Because then the game because only about doing that one thing.
I also wonder about the roleplay elements of pathfinder dragons. A wyrmling or juvenile are usually well enough to guide. But by the time you have an adult, they start to get an ego with their usually vast intelligence. Most dragons will refuse to view themselves as servants at that point and require great concessions in order to get them to do things.
Perhaps you need to donate ever increasing amounts of gold and treasure to such a creature to take to its hoard the longer you hope to keep it around. Failing to do so could cause it to go wild (PvE Dragon Lair gets introduced to the game world somewhere) or when it dies the hoard becomes eligible to be found by explorers! News of a dragon death would lead explorers all over the world to pack on their gear and go looking for the now abandoned hoard of wealth!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This isn't really related to game mechanics but here goes. Doesn't it take a couple centuries for a dragon to reach adulthood? Even with time speed up IG that's a long wait. While I like the general idea of hatching and raising monsters I think in the case of dragons it might be better to make nice with one that is already grown up. Honestly at epic 12th I don't think we should be seeing all that many adult dragons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But by the time you have an adult, they start to get an ego with their usually vast intelligence. Most dragons will refuse to view themselves as servants at that point and require great concessions in order to get them to do things.
Perhaps you need to donate ever increasing amounts of gold and treasure to such a creature to take to its hoard the longer you hope to keep it around.
This is the right way to talk to Dragons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would be cool if all the options were available , you have one space where you can build the facility that produces what you want . A monster training place or a creepy obelisk that raise the dead or a magic tower that summons and controls elementals . They could all be linked to one player who controls them in the field making it a potential disaster if the controller dies. It would really give the warfare a fantasy feel to it, one army has a dragon another has a horde of zombies another has the swarm of elementals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If its just one player who controls the dragon then kill him and the dragon becomes hostile to everyone in both armies. You might need to have a spy find out who it is. I like the dragon idea and you could have more monsters as trainable to fight in your army . You build a monster training facility and then pick the type of monster your settlement will use. You could train just 1 dragon or maybe 50 giant bears or something like that.
I really like the idea of training monsters (or raising undead) as a way to "field an army" as well as to have protection. It is also something that does fit into the setting. Sure not every town would have these just like not every town in PF has access to this sort of "resource."
Being tied to 1 character, maybe even a team or group of characters, but only 1 at a time (like the titan pilot idea, many pilots but only 1 in the seat at a time) would make an very enticing assassination target.
There definitely should be a "cost" for this, dragons demand larger "donations" to its horde, undead would need replaced as flesh rots and bones break, elementals would have the same sort of upkeep as well.
Mind you, this is nothing that should be in EE unless the devs are truly G.O.D.s (Game Organizational Directors) and are able to create a balanced working system for it.
Maybe 1 way to implement this sort of "NPC" army sorts would be to have the NPC guards for a settlement be selected from a list based on alignment of the settlement. Something in the leadership tab or something. something like...
Choose NPC army type:
Undead
Elementals
Men
Elves
Dwarves
Mixed mortal races
Each has it's "perks" and adds flavor to each kingdom and settlement. A building within the settlement could be used to augment or upgrade them. Not quite what the OP was wanting to discuss but it does relate a little.
Side note: Great topic. :-)
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Goblin Squad Member
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If crafting is robust enough, there can be steps to combat dragons from enemy armies.
Craft weapons specifically meant to target dragons. Like Dragonlances from Krynn.
But possibly make then under the control of Settlements. So it would cost a lot to make them and only Settlements are likely to be able to afford many. They could loan them out to qualified players when needed.
If a scout determines the enemy has a dragon or more, then they could be prepared for it. Same goes with other things too. Weapons for Undead, Elementals, etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont mind if something like a dragon requires a kingdom or settlement as long as its an intensive long term (close to a year or more) effort that could be thwarted.
not only that but keeping an adult dragon should require constant and expensive upkeep.
Adult dragons are just pets, they are intelligent beings with their own wants and goals. As such they should need a reason to stay and go to war when commanded. This should be represented by a high upkeep cost.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Adult dragons are just pets, they are intelligent beings with their own wants and goals. As such they should need a reason to stay and go to war when commanded. This should be represented by a high upkeep cost.
Remains me of certain cities being taken over by an Adult Dragon or older that was raised as a 'pet' in that city. Becoming the new ruler of the city with all those humans and demihumans.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If theres dragons, there should be golems. Just saying.
I agree. For golems you can take a look at something like the third party product Mithril: City of the Golem and have that as your big gun. I think the difference in what type of big monster a city builds should be based on the demographics of the settlement/kingdom and what resources are required.
I want to see frost giants with their trained remorhaz on the way to hunt white dragon and alike, though this seems to be out of place.