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So... Activating a style is a swift action, Kirin Style requires a swift action Knowledge check to gain any benefits from the style, and Kirin Strike requires it's own swift action to add the damage. Is this really intended to require three separate swift actions (one to activate your style, one to make the knowledge check, and one to finally add the damage)? It seems a bit much... You get no benefit from the swift action to activate Kirin Style until the following round when you can make your knowledge check.
Additionally, this makes that style practically useless in conjunction with Combat Style Master because even though you can now activate your style with a free action and gain the defensive bonuses from the knowledge check in the first round of combat, you had to take a second style feat for that and every time you switch Styles you have a make another knowledge check slowing you down significantly. It's probably fine that Kirin Style is difficult to use with other styles, but since it uses so many swift actions, I almost feel like I have to take a useless second style and Combat Style Master as a feat tax to make the style I want to use viable.
Looks like you have the mechanics down. Keep in mind that you can still take normal actions during the setup, and the bonuses last effectively for the rest of the battle so long as you maintain the style.
With Combat Style Mastery, you can gain the benefit of the style on your second round before taking your move and standard, and you can use Kirin Strike on subsequent rounds.
Looks like you have the mechanics down. Keep in mind that you can still take normal actions during the setup, and the bonuses last effectively for the rest of the battle so long as you maintain the style.
And as long as you only fight the one creature... if you want to switch targets you need another swift action Knowledge check. Not as big a deal since you're already in the style, but the action economy is significantly worse than many other styles. Also how long do you really expect to be fighting the same enemy?
With Combat Style Mastery, you can gain the benefit of the style on your second round before taking your move and standard, and you can use Kirin Strike on subsequent rounds.
No, with mastery, you can start doing that on the first round, but you had to waste a feat on an extra style that you won't use to qualify.
edit: Basically, I'm arguing that the knowledge check should either be a free action, or you should get to do the first one as a free action when you activate the style. Also, the benefits of the feat really should apply to any creature that would have been identified with the same knowledge check.
Kirin style is just a bad style.
I tried out Kirin style when making a melee Vivisectionist. At late levels my Int was 18 and Str was 22.
In that situation Kirin style was pretty lackluster. The main benefit is the bonus to knowledge checks, AC and saves. Those were the only things useful out of the whole thing. By the time Kirin Strike comes online that bonus to damage in melee is a joke. If the damage was precision damage and didn't need a swift action it would be great but I get the feeling that this style got nerfed in development in fear of melee wizards or something.
But yes you are correct that this is how the style works. Yes it is bad.
If the damage was precision damage and didn't need a swift action it would be great but I get the feeling that this style got nerfed in development in fear of melee wizards or something.
But yes you are correct that this is how the style works. Yes it is bad.
Because all that INT makes you so. freaking. good. at attack rolls... but you're probably right. The sad part is it could be super useful in certain builds if the action economy didn't make it useless. Sometimes it seems like the devs think mechanical balance and interesting character choices have to be mutually exclusive.
Pathfinder doesn't like it when you try to use Int for anything other than arcane casting.
Guess it's only for the Master of Many Styles then.
so... no one? because i can't imagine a MoMS having the INT to make this worth the swift action over any of the other styles that might make use of it.
I was referring to your issue with taking combat style master and a second style feat.
well with this particular character i didn't want to dip either. also, i don't consider having to dip to solve a feat tax issue much better than paying the feat tax...
in retrospect, though, it seems this style was intended for wizards. they're more likely to have a swift action to blow and they don't need to full attack. also, kirin strike can apply to ranged attacks so... if you're a ray or touch spell wizard, i guess you can add a little damage. there's still probably so many more useful things you could be doing with your swift action as a full caster though...
whatever...
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no... it's a work around for the issue of using kirin style with other styles. i don't actually want to use another style, though; i would just have to pick one up to qualify for Combat Style Mastery so kirin style wouldn't be completely useless. dipping MoMS is not a solution to the problem of kirin style being practically useless without Combat Style Master...
Hmm. What good is Kirin Style?
I'd consider it for a wizard or magus specialized in melee touch attacks, if I had nothing better to spend my feats on or just wanted to be colorful. I might consider it for the rare high-Int rogue, as Kirin Path makes for a decent way to maneuver into flanking.
For a strictly martial character, even the Student of War, there are better styles.
I can understand your frustration cuatroespada, but this has been mentionned before, and there are known issues that certain devs dislike certain types of play. For example, the "dex to damage" all comes from companions lines of books and not the core line, since the core line folks have classified dex-to damage as excessive.
The whole action economy issue is well known, has been mentionned before (I have started a thread on the subject myself) and the devs are well aware of people's stance on the issue. In the end, the only other option is "homebrew/houserule". I dont realistically see kirin strike coming online early enough to be useful in PFS (the only where the devs are truly the "final say"), so in the end it's your (or your GMs) responsibility to see if this pans out.
I honestly wouldnt mind allowing combat style mastery without a second "style", but that's me. There are other GMs here that have a definitive stance on cutting out "feat taxes" because they feel it breaks the fun of the game.
In any case, sorry we cant be more constructive, but you've expressed your opinion, and those of the boards (me included) have said what we can, but we cant exactly be helpful for an issue many of uss believe is moot.
So your point is a style is underpowered, everyone agrees with you and a few suggest workarounds, and you complain that no one's helping you?
Short of developers posting and changing the ability specifically for you, what exactly were you hoping for?
I can understand your frustration cuatroespada, but this has been mentionned before, and there are known issues that certain devs dislike certain types of play. For example, the "dex to damage" all comes from companions lines of books and not the core line, since the core line folks have classified dex-to damage as excessive.
this is exactly what i was talking about... people in the swashbuckler discussion said the same thing, but then apparently the devs decided to reconsider and there may be a dex to damage feat in the advanced class guide. to be fair, i didn't see a post about it, i just gathered from the discussion recently that the issue was dropped because a feat is coming.
anyway...
In any case, sorry we cant be more constructive, but you've expressed your opinion, and those of the boards (me included) have said what we can, but we cant exactly be helpful for an issue many of uss believe is moot.
other than blahpers most recent post pointing out that there are better options (of which i'm well aware as i originally pointed out before editing my post because it was probably a bit rude), i thought that everyone was at least trying to be helpful. including blahpers in his first post. i apologize if i seemed unappreciative of the workaround suggestions. i just wouldn't have posted in the rules forum (at JJ's suggestion) if i was looking for build advice because there are other forums for that. thanks though, guys. :)
but you left the one where MyTThor was, admittedly, just being snarky? cool...
edit: i have no hard feelings. grudges are a waste of time/energy, and it seems like mostly it was a miscommunication. i just think that that particular post also contributes nothing useful to the discussion and ought to have been removed as well.
I had Kirin Style on my MoMS. I agree that I just couldn't keep my knowledge skills up enough to reliably make the rolls. I eventually retrained that Style out for another.
yeah, i don't think my investigator will have that problem, and the necessary MoMS dip should help the action economy slightly...
i guess it really is intended for... not monks... really only a wizard that really wanted to squeeze a little more damage out of their rays and touch spells (though you'd probably sqeeze more damage out of the entire party by casting something else). i think a magus probably has much better things he's using his swift actions on to bother spending rounds setting this up.
edit: speaking of MoMS... are there full MoMS builds that people actually play? because i rarely see someone talking about how awesome there MoMS build is rather than how useful that dip was for some other class build.
Mine was pure MoMS. That particular campaign has ended. We made it to level 12. Now, we had a VERY generous point buy, so I didn't mind going with a MAD class.
hmm... this is off topic so feel free to PM your response, but i'm curious which styles you used.