Rules Question From a New GM (Updated Weekly!)


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I originally had this under advice, but since it is more a smattering of rules questions I thought this part of the forum would be more appropriate.

I haven't GMed before and most of our players can count the number of RPG sessions on one hand, so we have the blind leading the blind. If we have differing opinions my interpretation stands with only token grumbling, but I let them know I will research and report back before the next session. That is where you guys come in!

I'll simply add on replies as more questions arise- less clutter than making a new topic each week. Thanks in advance for any responses you provide!


12/14/2013 Questions

1. If an otherwise good or neutral character is behaving in an evil fashion, does smite evil work on them? E.G.

a. A good character controlled by a dominate spell by an evil creature.
b. A good/neutral character that is currently acting out of line with that alignment for whatever reason.

The group is about to encounter a paladin who wants to take them into custody due to the death of a teenage boy by their hands. The group knows they are guilty of the crime, although there were some minor mitigating circumstances. The paladin has them surrounded so the only way out it to fight. My take would be that even if they are not evil in alignment, attacking to kill a paladin who is rightfully trying to bring them to justice is an evil act. Under these circumstances, would smite evil work on the PC?

That is it for today!


Reply to 1.
In my opinion I don't believe it would work.
While Alignment is a matter of perception, and they were wrong in the situation, smite evil wouldn't work unless they truly were evil in alignment.
Now I would shift them one step towards evil, or shift whoever had initiated the action one step. Unless that put them at evil, it would not work.
Alignment normally appears as a sort of aura to a person, and just doing one evil act doesn't make you an instant evil aura. Unless of course your somehow NG person enjoyed doing that evil act and therefore shifting them to True Neutral.
Just my Opinion, though.


I agree with Yorick, doing an evil act doesn't automaticly "make" you evil. So the smite doesn't work.
I do have to say that I don't know if there are any official rulings about changing aliments.
I think they'd have to do more evil acts, and they'd have to want to do more evil acts to shift towards evil.
Ps. don't shift your characters to easily, your players probably chose theire aligment for a reason.


I would advice you to be very lenient in enforcing the alignment rules in any case. I have never seen anything good come interpreting them harshly.

Grand Lodge

Mechanically speaking if the character has an alignment that isn't evil then no smite.

I am curious oynaz, what do you mean by lenient? Are you speaking about a GM changing a players alignment in game?


First, in direct answer to your question, detect evil picks up a character with active evil intent. Smite Evil has no such clause. So no Smiting unless you want to actually change their alignments or the rules.

Second, be very hesitant about ever imposing alignment changes on your PCs, especially without telling them in advance. It's very subjective, very contentious, and it's very difficult to pull off without seeming like you are just trying to make your players feel guilty. If you do it, it needs to be done considering intent and motivations, not just actions. The method that I have found works best is "Hey, [player], your character seems to be leaning towards [alignment] lately, have you noticed that?" at which point they will often either change their alignment themselves because they hadn't noticed, or give you insight into their character that explains their actions. If not, then I give them an explanation of why, in the moral system of my game, what they are doing fits a different alignment better, and warn them that if they keep acting this way I will change their alignment.

Third, legal and moral authority are not the same thing, and so the legal system is not inherently good-aligned. If you want opposing it to be an inherently evil act, then you have to do the hard work of making it good aligned. That means fair trials, good treatment of prisoners, non-lethal damage apprehending them, etc.


Thanks for the thoughts guys. Just to clear up my intention with the question, my purpose isn't to "Gotcha! You are evil!" on the players. Rather, it was to help the players (well, really just one,) recognize that their current actions are not in line with their chosen alignment.

Our "chaotic good" dwarf has shown a propensity for using lethal force for his convenience. A 14 year old commoner attacked our barbarian who had murdered his father some years ago (the barbarian has since seen the error of his pillaging and is trying to atone through his adventuring.) The barbarian attempted to disarm the boy (who attacked the entire group solo with no armor), and our dwarf responded by one-shotting the poor kid with a power attack. The player INTENT was that he wanted to get back to the dungeon and didn't want to have the barbarian talking with the youth delaying him.

It is unfortunately not a one-off thing, as said player has done this to several other surrendering foes the group wanted to question. Likewise said dwarf has no qualms about performing attacks or combat actions that might harm or kill his allies, so long as he gets to land the killing blow. I can get the message across by the paladin detecting "a darkness" within him when he uses detect evil, but I was curious if having the paladin smite him if he tries to murder his way out was mechanically sound. I might houserule it and say that smites are half strength if the target isn't the alignment but is actively acting in line with it. Obviously the crux of this issue is a player one rather than a mechanical one, which we can hopefully resolve organically through the game. But I thought I might as well get a mechanical answer for it while I have it top of mind!


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Sounds like the dwarf has committed an evil act (and it isn't the first). I'd shift his alignment once now (CN) and tell him if he wants his original alignment back, he can pay for an atonement (e.g. a strong warning). If he kills the paladin shift him again (CE). But for the poor paladin, it'll be too late for him to Smite...

CG means the 'ends justify the means' but 'getting back to the dungeon' doesn't sound like a good end in and of itself.


Kwauss wrote:

Sounds like the dwarf has committed an evil act (and it isn't the first). I'd shift his alignment once now (CN) and tell him if he wants his original alignment back, he can pay for an atonement (e.g. a strong warning). If he kills the paladin shift him again (CE). But for the poor paladin, it'll be too late for him to Smite...

CG means the 'ends justify the means' but 'getting back to the dungeon' doesn't sound like a good end in and of itself.

i was in a group that had a LN dwarf that constantly played LE intil the dm changed his alignment for him. the player went along with it. then a couple of sessons later, the mod we were playing had us encounter a large group of CG outsiders who took one look at said dwarf and said he had one chance. dwarf rolled a 1 on his bluff that he would be "good" and they (the outsiders) splatered him all over the caveren...

Grand Lodge

Sowde Da'aro wrote:
i was in a group that had a LN dwarf that constantly played LE intil the dm changed his alignment for him. the player went along with it. then a couple of sessons later, the mod we were playing had us encounter a large group of CG outsiders who took one look at said dwarf and said he had one chance. dwarf rolled a 1 on his bluff that he would be "good" and they (the outsiders) splatered him all over the caveren...

That's so Metal....

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Unless you have a disruptive player, an alignment change should be a voluntary player decision. Alignment change should be a good thing! It means the character is developing.


For in-game solving, does the dwarf have any deity? And if so, of what algiment?


I dont tell my players what aligntment there PCs have. There is a magic item that will help you stay on the narrow Road. My current GM does it the same way.
If it have ingame effects then i will let the in game stuff happend and make a RP situation out of it.
And if a player gets angry about a ruling i make, we will talk about it like grown ups, or Call each other names and throw dices:)
Edit but aligntment is not a very present part of ouer games.


Sehnder wrote:

Our "chaotic good" dwarf has shown a propensity for using lethal force for his convenience. A 14 year old commoner attacked our barbarian who had murdered his father some years ago (the barbarian has since seen the error of his pillaging and is trying to atone through his adventuring.) The barbarian attempted to disarm the boy (who attacked the entire group solo with no armor), and our dwarf responded by one-shotting the poor kid with a power attack. The player INTENT was that he wanted to get back to the dungeon and didn't want to have the barbarian talking with the youth delaying him.

Sounds like an evil character and a bored player. You can probably solve both problems by resolving the bored part. Talk to the dwarf player and let him know that your group wants to RP at times, which is just as important as the battles in the game.

If you shift the PC's alignment, you'll just have a disgruntled player. Your best bet is to deal with this as an Out Of Character situation. Unless the player is mature and when you begin discussing this with him, he explains that he's trying to take his character on a darker path (doubt it - sounds like he's just not RPing), then trying to solve the issue with in-game penalties won't help.


Quote:
Our "chaotic good" dwarf has shown a propensity for using lethal force for his convenience. A 14 year old commoner attacked our barbarian who had murdered his father some years ago (the barbarian has since seen the error of his pillaging and is trying to atone through his adventuring.) The barbarian attempted to disarm the boy (who attacked the entire group solo with no armor), and our dwarf responded by one-shotting the poor kid with a power attack. The player INTENT was that he wanted to get back to the dungeon and didn't want to have the barbarian talking with the youth delaying him.

He murdered someone who was no threat to himself for reasons of boredom and convenience, with no regard to the boy's right to exist. That's about as NE/CE as it gets. If this was an isolated incident, that'd be one thing, but anybody who is that callous has already been on a trend downward personality wise.

I wouldn't just rule at the table "You're CN now", but I would talk to him between sessions, say that his alignment is CN, and if he commits one or two particularly callous acts like that it'll drop again.


The dwarf is evil. He is definitely selfish and cares nothing for the concerns of others, that's chaotic. If he isn't NE or CE, then he's definitely CN on the cusp and that's only if he somehow believed that Power Attacking the unarmed youth would not murder him and that's hard to justify when you're basically saying I swing as hard as I possibly can.

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