I'm new to pathfinder and any variation of d&d in general. I have gotten fairly into it though, and the other day I built a level 20 summoner for fun. I bragged to my DM that summoners are OP and that I felt that my summmoner could take on a CR20 encounter solo. We're level 6 in that, my first, campaign currently (and that with very fast xp). To be clear, the character I'm bragging about is the level 20 I made outside of the campaign for fun. My DM actually a great guy and took me up on the challenge.
The map we fight on is going to be randomly chosen from one of the maps we have both prepared. Each of us will prepare four. I'm fairly confident that I can prepare a series of maps that would absolutely destroy anything he chose to bring since we both agreed we get 10 rounds prior to combat to buff/etc. On his maps I feel like I would likely have a decent chance of success too, given the prep time and my eidolon and my versatility.
I'm looking here for advice on what I might expect from the bestiary that he might throw my way. I'm new enough that I have no idea what the variety of monsters at that level CR may do. I am fairly confident about any single CR20 monster based on the stat comparisons I did, but I have no idea what kind of special abilities the variety of creatures he might throw at me would have.
If you were looking to make an encounter designed to wrecck a summoner at CR20, what npcs would you use? We've outlawed swarms.
Not really that experienced with summoner fighting...
Something incorporeal? That does touch attacks? Or has a very High DC spammable SLA?.... so half the monsters, I guess :D
-Nearyn
Hah, the caster damage is not really an issue with SR30 and decent saves on the Eidolon. You've hit the weak point in my build though - touch AC. Is that a very common method of attack for NPCs? What types? Haha, hopefully my DM is not reading this, I wouldn't actually be surprised.
I'd just be lazy and go with 12 Iron Archers (an iron golem variant I found on the SRD): +17/+12/+7 ranged touch attacks that deal 3d6 fire/cold/lightning/acid damage, if your eildion has all energy immunities the golem can just slam you to death, 60' perfect supernatural fly, immune to any magic that allows SR, construct immunities (poison, sleep, mind effecting, ability damage/drain, death effects, ect.) DR 15/adamantine, constant see invisibility, decent AC and HP.
Or a few dragons. They scary.
Or 64 shadows (1d8 str damage on a melee touch attack), 40' fly, flyby attack, +20 to stealth, incorporeal.
Or 2304 young bloody 1HD skeletons with crossbows (nat 20 is always a hit). If you don't have DR 6+ you die. If you cant kill at least 3.8 a turn every turn you die of attrition (the ones you killed at the beginning regenerate).
Or a lvl 20 Thundercaller Bard. If you get into close range he throws three 9d8 sound bursts that require ~DC26 fort saves or be stunned for a round (as a supernatural ability so SR wont help) 27d8 sonic damage each and every round.
Or a well built lvl 20 NPC wizard. (How many wishes does it take to kill a summoner?)
If the DM is feeling particularly cheezy he can apply the "young" and "giant" templates to literally anything and get a free +3 AC and +2 Dex for no disadvantage or CR increase.
A build (I am not entirely sure it is legal but I can't find any legal problems with it) that murders basically anything is Grenadier Alchemist 2/ Gunslinger 1/stuff-to-get-stealth/initiative/attack-into-the-stratosphere X. They infuse the drug "Dreamtime Tea" to one of their bullets, attack you from stealth within their first range increment (targeting flat-footed touch) and if they hit you you fall asleep. No save. Then they coup-de-grace you into the dirt for the next 2d12 minutes.
I would be sure to pick as many immunities as possible, and DR 10 (scroll of stoneskin would probably do). Use your 20 min duration Summon Monster 9 class feature then "Summon Eidolon" (a second level spell) to summon your Eidolon as a standard action. If the fight lasts more than the 20 min on summon Eidolon you have bigger problems and the extra CR 14 monster on your side can't hurt.
Thirdrevelation wrote: Hah, the caster damage is not really an issue with SR30 and decent saves on the Eidolon. Here's me paraphrasing a beloved movie icon
"Don't be too confident in whatever otherworldly terror you've constructed. The ability to resist spells with a caster-level check of 29 or less, is insignificant, next to the power of the bestiary SLAs"
:P
-Nearyn
A few things in response to your post. The build I'm going with currently has DR20 for the eidolon when fully buffed. DR10 when not. The eidolon has well over 30 to hit, so it can hit almost anything it can reach (15 ft). If it conducts a full round attack with no misses and no DR, it does over 300 damage on average (assuming a roll of all 3s on a d6 and no crits).
I'll know the creatures with enough time to choose the immunities to give the eidolon. I'd imagine he'll vary the type of damage his npc's do, but perhaps not. If he doesn't, both myself and the eidolon can take immunity to the prevalent type of damage the mobs do.
If he chooses a large number of lower level npc's I can do a mass charm monster to make the ones who fail the dc fight the ones that do not. If none save, presumably I would win? In any case they would not hurt me.
The mass charm would not work for the iron archers you mentioned. I hadn't realized some npcs were flat out immune to almost all magic. I'll have to do some more research and see what spells don't allow for SR. At a minimum with DR20, a only 5% miss chance on each of my eidolon's attacks (just nat 1s with the relative ac and to hit mods), and the fact that the eidolon could easily kill one each round, I think that the iron archers would be very beatable.
Side note, a summoner cannot have more than one summmoned creature on the map at a given time, eidolon included. If I summoned a creature, then my eidolon, the creature would dissapear when the eidolon was summoned.
As for the bard and wizard builds you mentioned, he said he was going to use enemies from the bestiary. Would those qualify? I mean there are obviously several PC builds with a ton of save or dies. Is that as common in a CR20 encounter?
Nearyn wrote: Thirdrevelation wrote: Hah, the caster damage is not really an issue with SR30 and decent saves on the Eidolon. Here's me paraphrasing a beloved movie icon
"Don't be too confident in whatever otherworldly terror you've constructed. The ability to resist spells with a caster-level check of 29 or less, is insignificant, next to the power of the bestiary SLAs"
:P
-Nearyn Hah, and here's me being a noob - do SLA's bypass SR?
It's rather hard to know what things the GM could do to ruin your day without seeing more about the build, but here's a few things from Bestiary 1 (adding in Bestiaries 2-4 would greatly expand the list):
1) An ancient gold dragon that casts antimagic field and moves up right next to you. Your buffs and magic items are gone, your eidolon goes away, your spells are useless, and you have a dragon adjacent to you.
2) A balor can cast dominate monster at CL 20th with a Will DC of 27. That's a 50/50 chance of getting through SR, and unless you have focused a great deal on Will saves for your eidolon, a decent chance it will now be under the balor's control.
3) A bunch of spectres with +10 to touch for 2 negative levels with each hit.
4) Throw hundreds of bat swarms at you. They won't be able to hurt the eidolon with its DR, but they'll chew through your hp in no time (not to mention you having to make hundreds of DC 11 Fort saves to avoid being nauseated).
Thirdrevelation wrote: Hah, and here's me being a noob - do SLA's bypass SR? SLAs require a SR check just like spells do.
Undead are immune to all mind effecting effects, so charm monster wouldn't work. (as are plants, oozes, and a smattering of others)
The summoner's Eidolon ability doesn't mention the summon monster ability, and the summon monster ability only says "he can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned" which I interpret as "he can only activate this ability when his eidolon is not summoned" and the ability is to call the summoned things, not sustain them. I guess it does make more sense that since he can only have one super-summon monster out and it says it shares the power with the eidolon, though. The more you know.
The smart way to play the iron archers is to basically have them skirmish you, maintining maximum spread, using their flight and range to their advantage, and having the two that you and your eidolon are attacking withdraw when they're in melee to allow the others the max time to take pot shots. Admittedly if you got all energy immunities and forced them to fight you in melee it would be harder because only 8 or so could hit you at a time, and they would be forced to use their +30 CMB to grapple/disarm you.
The immunity to all magic that allows a saving throw is something that i think is unique to the nigher CR golems, though I havent read every monster listing.
Quote: Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. Spell-like abilities don't break SR, Supernatural and Extraordinary do though.
"Going to use enemies from the bestiary" is pretty vague to me, it could mean only the bestiary 1, or bestiaries 1-4, or it could mean anything he finds under the "bestiary" tab of the SRD (which includes adventure path monsters, and the iconic characters, along with templates and other monster things). I would say that a 20th lvl NPC would be against the spirit of the challenge... but then again CR 20 dragons can cast as 19th lvl sorcerers with CL 27 SLAs.
A Brass Great Wrym may be your worst nightmare: Quote: Instead of a line of fire, a brass dragon can breathe a 60 ft. cone of sleep gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a Will save (DC as breath weapon) or fall asleep for 1d6+12 rounds. Once you're asleep you eidolon disappears and the dragon eats you.
Or if he is only using the bestiary 1 he just throws 4 ancient brass dragons at you, I hope you can make 4 consecutive DC 28 will saves every 1d4 rounds, eating "dominate person" spells in between breath weapons.
A well build level 20 Eidolon can take most CR 20 Monsters,especially with prebuffing as can many other enemies. This isn't that special, since other builds like archers can do so too very often.
As you have already seen one can build pretty nasty encounters you likely won't be able to survive. Antimagic field will be the easiest.
Don't forget your Twin Eidolon Form for the battle!
Thirdrevelation wrote: Hah, and here's me being a noob - do SLA's bypass SR? Nope, but it only takes a roll of 10 for many CR 20 creatures to punch through that SR. Some, like the Stone Demon, need an even lower roll :)
That is, of course, for spells that allow spell resistance. =D
-Nearyn
EDIT:
I3igAl wrote: As you have already seen one can build pretty nasty encounters you likely won't be able to survive. Antimagic field will be the easiest.
Don't forget your Twin Eidolon Form for the battle!
It is true. While certain classes scale to a level where it is possible for a single level 20 character, to take out a CR 25+ creatures alone, it is also always possible to get matched up against an opponent where you don't have a chance. Especially in an arena-esque game where you're going in blind, and you fight to the death :)
Do you know the Alignment Smite-Evolution? It will help you alot in such a game.
It will boost your damage by 15 per strike(around 105 if you don't have rend) and allow you to penetrate any DR. You in your Twin Eidolonn Form also gain a nice boost to attack.
Overcoming one type of DR doesnt mean you automatically overcome any of the others unless you are circumventing the restriction via enchantment bonus.
A "Good" weapon does not inherently bypass DR/adamantine, DR/magic, DR/silver, or DR/slashing.
A +5 weapon does bypass DR/good, DR/adamantine, DR/magic, and DR/silver (though still not DR/slashing)
Hmm... am I allowed to crank the cheese-o-meter into overkill?
I'd probably be inclined towards dropping a healthy mix (read: using synergistic skills and abilities) of young advanced shadows (or young advanced greater shadows) with class levels.
A young (CR-1) advanced (CR+1) Greater Shadow (CR8) Antipaladin 2 (CR+1 for non-key class) is CR9.
Greater Shadow: Str- Dex20 Con- Int6 Wis12 Cha15.
Young: Str- Dex24 Con- Int6 Wis12 Cha15
Advanced: Str- Dex28 Con- Int10 Wis16 Cha19
Class levels give a +4 +4 +2 +2 +0 -2.
Of course, the +0 and -2 go to Str and Con; the +4 go to Cha and Dex...
Str- Dex32 Con- Int12 Wis16 Cha23
Which means: hp = 9d8+2d10+66+2 = 124
AC (+6 Deflection, +11 Dex, +1 Dodge, +1 size) = 29 (Main weakness)
Saves: 3/3/6 (undead 9hd) +3/0/3 (Paladin) +6/11/3 (stats) +6/6/6 (Cha) = 18/20/18
Attack: BAB+8, +11 Dex, +1 size = incorporeal Touch +20 (1d6 str)
16 of these are a mere CR17... of course, giving some of them different class levels (Bard 4, Sorc 4 or Oracle 4 come to mind, each one clocking in at CR10 and with 1 more point of charisma) might lead to some group buffing synergies.
Should I thow a young Balor (CR19) into the mix to add the whole affair up to CR20?
Or maybe a Level 20 enemy summoner (also CR19 if only equipped with NPC gear)?
Other than that...
A party containing a spellcaster (who drops Antimagic Field on his Familiar, which scurries into the backpack of the RAGELANCEPOUNCE barbarian, who then charges you) works pretty well against anything that relies on buffs.
An Enemy Diviner (who _will_ win initiative) opening with quickened Disjunction, followed by Time Stop can ruin your day quite thoroughly, as well. (Yes, Greater Meta Rods of Quicken are expensive, but _so_ worth it).
Class levels on creatures is a great way to buff things imo.
Have lots of things, don't just have one dude, he will get blown up.
If your heart is set on one big bad, give him multiple initiatives, ie he goes at X, and then X-10, etc.
ALSO! Spells are going to be huge and very complex. If you wish to resolve the combat in a reasonable time, be prepared with all the spells written out. I think it is extremely difficult to remember what high level spells can actually do, so having a quick reference and a plan is a good idea
Timebomb wrote: Overcoming one type of DR doesnt mean you automatically overcome any of the others unless you are circumventing the restriction via enchantment bonus.
A "Good" weapon does not inherently bypass DR/adamantine, DR/magic, DR/silver, or DR/slashing.
A +5 weapon does bypass DR/good, DR/adamantine, DR/magic, and DR/silver (though still not DR/slashing)
Sorry I skipped Alignment Smite, assuming it works like normal Smite. This version isn't woth it, unless he lacks a +5 weapon.
I3igAl wrote: A well build level 20 Eidolon can take most CR 20 Monsters,especially with prebuffing as can many other enemies. This isn't that special, since other builds like archers can do so too very often.
As you have already seen one can build pretty nasty encounters you likely won't be able to survive. Antimagic field will be the easiest.
Don't forget your Twin Eidolon Form for the battle!
The antimagic field would suck as any spell buffs I tried to use on the eidolon would be dispelled, but the eidolon can't be dispelled with an antimagic field if I used my 1 minute long method of summoning it. If I used the summon eidolon spell, it would dissappear, but that's mostly for if you get surprised after sleeping so it couldn't have been there using the long method or something.
As for dispelling the buffs, I'm planning on buying a bunch of potions and primarily using them to pre-buff the fight. Since I get wealth by level worth of gear, I've got a lot to throw around. The way I read dispel magic and its variants is that it affects only cast spells, which would rule out potions. I could be wrong on this though, and would be very interested to hear a definitive answer.
Thirdrevelation wrote: The antimagic field would suck as any spell buffs I tried to use on the eidolon would be dispelled, but the eidolon can't be dispelled with an antimagic field if I used my 1 minute long method of summoning it. If I used the summon eidolon spell, it would dissappear, but that's mostly for if you get surprised after sleeping so it couldn't have been there using the long method or something. The eidolon entry specifically mentions it is treated as a summoned creature, with the special case that dispel magic cannot be used to send it back to its home plane. Antimagic field, however, is not dispel magic, and it's text specifically says that summoned creatures wink out in its area.
Well first lets consider this...a smart GM will kill your summoner and ignore the eidolon. So plan your summoner to be very resistant to a myriad of things, because when the summoner dies the eidolon goes too.
Honestly, the easiest way to beat your summoner is for the GM to use an Ancient Red Dragon. On his turn before you both enter the arena the dragon cast antimagic field. Your spells do not work on the dragon. Your eidolon cannot enter the area of the antimagic field without winking out. The dragon attacks your summoner who will quickly die.
Thats all your GM needs to do really to win.
Claxon wrote: Well first lets consider this...a smart GM will kill your summoner and ignore the eidolon. So plan your summoner to be very resistant to a myriad of things, because when the summoner dies the eidolon goes too. The Summoner is an Eidolon too at level 20.
Thirdrevelation wrote: I'm new to pathfinder and any variation of d&d in general. I have gotten fairly into it though, and the other day I built a level 20 summoner for fun. I bragged to my DM that summoners are OP and that I felt that my summmoner could take on a CR20 encounter solo. We're level 6 in that, my first, campaign currently (and that with very fast xp). To be clear, the character I'm bragging about is the level 20 I made outside of the campaign for fun. My DM actually a great guy and took me up on the challenge.
The map we fight on is going to be randomly chosen from one of the maps we have both prepared. Each of us will prepare four. I'm fairly confident that I can prepare a series of maps that would absolutely destroy anything he chose to bring since we both agreed we get 10 rounds prior to combat to buff/etc. On his maps I feel like I would likely have a decent chance of success too, given the prep time and my eidolon and my versatility.
I'm looking here for advice on what I might expect from the bestiary that he might throw my way. I'm new enough that I have no idea what the variety of monsters at that level CR may do. I am fairly confident about any single CR20 monster based on the stat comparisons I did, but I have no idea what kind of special abilities the variety of creatures he might throw at me would have.
If you were looking to make an encounter designed to wrecck a summoner at CR20, what npcs would you use? We've outlawed swarms.
He might just use a level 21 wizard which is also a CR 20.
Dragons are pretty tough, and if used correctly some outsiders might still be an issue. Don't expect a straight up fight where he engages you in melee since you have the advantage. If he makes a sneaky combatant then expect for him to use hit and run tactics.
He might also be smart and use a collection of lesser creatures to equal a CR 20 encounter. A necromancer using shadows, wraiths, and specters(energy drain, no save) vs touch attack would cause problems.
edit: I see it is bestiary monsters only, but those can still be an issue.
I3igAl wrote: Claxon wrote: Well first lets consider this...a smart GM will kill your summoner and ignore the eidolon. So plan your summoner to be very resistant to a myriad of things, because when the summoner dies the eidolon goes too. The Summoner is an Eidolon too at level 20.
Which still disappears in an antimagic field.
Claxon wrote: I3igAl wrote: Claxon wrote: Well first lets consider this...a smart GM will kill your summoner and ignore the eidolon. So plan your summoner to be very resistant to a myriad of things, because when the summoner dies the eidolon goes too. The Summoner is an Eidolon too at level 20.
Which still disappears in an antimagic field. Just an update in case anybody was curious. He picked a CL17 red dragon for the antimagic field. I am planning on using a scroll of prismatic sphere (my umd is high enough it auto succeeds). Also, I changed my build up some and took the feat quicken SLA (gate) and the trait gifted adept (gate). I'll just gate in (and be able to control) 6 pit fiends within 3 rounds, and hide in the prismatic sphere while the fight continues. The prismatic sphere is immune to the antimagic field, and gated creatures won't be suppressed because they are actually on this plane.
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