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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't get me wrong, I love the ability to sit in chairs. It is a feature I look for in games just like I look for personal housing. Saying that the lack of it somehow kills roleplay though I think is a bit of a stretch.
I agree emotes are probably not worth it when you break it down mathematically. The text options like pointing at you and "Avari waves to Pax Charlie George" are fine with me. Again I am going to insist on chat bubbles though because RP can be down right impossible without them. Bludd's suggestion for readable bio's is another text screen/easy implement that RP'ers get tons of mileage out of.
I am more than willing to settle for text based RP tools, not ask for social clothing until way down the line (after all the races for instance) and make our RP crowdforging stand on the implementation of the Taverns. Manageable taverns that give settlement bonuses and maybe we can come up with a couple nifty side uses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal opinion regarding what minimum game mechanics are needed to support roleplaying (and meaningful player interaction in general):
* speech bubbles: the basis of all interraction is (hopefully) speech and it is very easy to lose meaningful interaction in a fast rolling chat window, having speech bubbles makes (to me at least) a major difference in coversations / speeches (and should not require a significant amount of development recourses as it should be just one feature of the GUI)
* one generic text emote (with no artwork whatsoever): we need to able to express what our characters are doing by means other than running around and bashing other peoples' faces, should not require huge amount of effort to implement
* in-game bulletin boards: we need to have means to communicate, preferably locally (separately for each settlement/hideout), in free format (i.e. not just be means of placing hits and putting out contracts) with players who do not happen to be online at the same time as we are
As far as I understand all of the above should have a very limited need for development resouces and would likely to be used by most players (either actively or passively).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with avari about those two points. Floating text/chat bubbles are very important to me and not just because of RP reasons. I hate trying to follow a quck moving chat window.
On a side note I think I was spoiled by my first MMO which was UO. I guess it was just a different sort of sandbox. It had player housing sailing mounts crafting customizeable clothing pack animals writeable books and scrolls playable pub games hireable henchmen and you guessed it sittable chairs. UO certainly wouldn't be considered a theme park that had added those features as distractions. I think the developers where trying to create a fully fleshed out virtual fantasy world and thought people would appreciate some of the more basic aspects of the world. I know I liked the taste of that classic dish. In time I hope I can enjoy a big plate of PFO for some old familiar flavors and a bunch of new spices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Since there is no option to send a PM to you via the normal way, Chris, how can one contact a moderator to discuss moderation?
"The Eternal Sun guides us. May the eternal sun shine upon thee."
If we get chat bubbles, it would be cool have options to turn them off or see them only for certain characters etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with avari about those two points. Floating text/chat bubbles are very important to me and not just because of RP reasons. I hate trying to follow a quck moving chat window.
On a side note I think I was spoiled by my first MMO which was UO. I guess it was just a different sort of sandbox. It had player housing sailing mounts crafting customizeable clothing pack animals writeable books and scrolls playable pub games hireable henchmen and you guessed it sittable chairs. UO certainly wouldn't be considered a theme park that had added those features as distractions. I think the developers where trying to create a fully fleshed out virtual fantasy world and thought people would appreciate some of the more basic aspects of the world. I know I liked the taste of that classic dish. In time I hope I can enjoy a big plate of PFO for some old familiar flavors and a bunch of new spices.
Imagination (brain) -> Simulation (text) -> UO (2d graphics) -> Game Rules (3d graphics
UO with 2d graphics could add more simulation, I believe (halfway between MUDs and 3d mmorpgs? In fact it took a lot of ideas from MUDs.
I think PFO attempts to develop according to growing player groups instead of simulating a world for individuals.
It's a summary but that's the gist of what I figure at this stage.
I really hope if the PFO core of group growth works then these simulation offshoots could one day appear around the main trunk of the tree?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've role-played for years in Champions Online and I can say the single most important feature for RP is a functional, easy to read, and easy to use chat system. This is *way* more important than emotes, furniture, player housing, etc.
This was the deciding factor between spending my dollar on CO over DCU, even though DCU has a lot of other features I like more (it's nicer looking, for one).
A nice chat system is important for everyone who plays the game, not just role-players. Being able to make tabs and custom channels (local, team, zone, invite-only, colorable text); all great tools to have whether you're just managing a guild, a raid, or player event.
If the designers have the time and money to add other little niceties, then sure, those are cool. But chat is the make it or break it thing for me. Everything else is just icing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather have bards and barbarians than chairs or animated emotes. Even if I don't play the class they add rp experiences in more gamespace than chairs. Textual emotes should be as simple as a line of text /moose = "Proxima Sin does the moose dance at you" and custom emote :juggles baby geese with glee = "Proxima Sin juggles baby geese with glee" so those would be cool.
Chat bubbles in a crowded Inn would be just as insufferable as fast scrolling text (probably sooner too) and I don't want to be hunted in pvp by chat bubbles. A simple list of checkboxes for who to see/show chat bubbles too would be awesome sooner rather than later.
I like bulletin boards that give notices of local community events and concerns and as an rp game-world news delivery tool.
-------ORIGINAL IDEAS----------
I'd like to see custom written text linked to keys as shortcuts for using the chat window. In the key mapping panel there's NumPad1 with a text field I can set to ":juggles baby geese with glee" or "/say By Thordrid's grey beard!". That way I only have to press NumPad keys instead of tons of typing to express my most common character traits. Since it doesn't seem like a ton of dev effort for that rp expression empowerment shoot for EE release?
Lore builds rp for me. This isn't just green plane with coded weeds, this is the field where... and the places become their own characters. It could be small at first containing the most major information and expanded as able, but I support quick in-game access for the player to a few words of lore by click or mouseover when my character is near something or it's mentioned in game text. That would be cool.
TL;DR
What? Some people juggle geese.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have kept away from posting in this thread, but the subject has been talked about in our TS over the last week. Even there it is a heated topic where opposing viewpoints are held pretty passionately.
This is a case where I find myself completely agreeing with Ryan's points. Over the last fourteen years I have been gaming, I have never seen a lack of social tools hinder my ability to roleplay. The roleplaying community has consistently kept the tradition going for years in games that lack sitting in chairs or graphical emotes.
Don't get me wrong, I love the ability to sit in chairs. It is a feature I look for in games just like I look for personal housing. Saying that the lack of it somehow kills roleplay though I think is a bit of a stretch.
Even when the crowdforging choices are in the same category (for arguments sake social) I could see myself voting for a different option. Given the choice between sitting in chairs and a LOTRO style music system, I will choose the music system. Given the choice between a complex emote system and personal housing I will also chose the latter. The same could be said of roads, more complexity with settlement law options, an ability to free NPC slaves, crafted statues commemorating heroes, etc.
I also don't think it turns the game into a murder (or war) simulator any more than the lack of social tools in a themepark game turns it into a raid simulator. An argument could be made that a good majority of the community will be primarily concerned with conflict (just like a good portion of themepark players are involved primarily in dungeons and raids). Just like there are social players in themeparks, there can be social players in PFO. Regardless of the main theme of a game roleplay ( and social communities) will thrive or perish based on the community that wishes to promote it.
In a game that has either / or crowdforging new systems are voted against each other. I hope that the items being voted on are within the same categories, but even if that were the case more often than not I might be in a position where I am voting against emotes and chairs in favor of an equally time intensive but more personally favorable option. I would suspect I won't be alone in that.
This says it well.
Sure Emotes and other things have been in most MMO's since inception, but that does not make it time well spent. There is so much more that GW can work on for the game. Emotes and chairs will be very low on my list.
I will say this.... And you all will laugh. Put Emotes and chair sitting in the cash shop. If there is going to be a cash shop, that would be something in it I would not complain about.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Helps with immersion. Yeah yeah, I know me and my immersion.
Same reason why you want to see a sword being swung when you attack instead of your character standing still saying "Xeen swings sword for 25 damage."
See, I've been thinking this too. On the same note, should we not be eliminating types of weapons? Types of spell effects? Even races?
Aren't all those cosmetics that can be 'imagined'?|
Goblin Squad Member
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From the sounds of this, it seems like we'll be doing well to have a game world with more depth than Rock'em Sock'em Robots.How does Emotes and Chair sitting add to the depth of the game?
How does stabbing people in the face add to the depth of the game? You could just type *stabs Someguy in the face!* and use your imagination, right?
Luckily for those wanting a murder simulator, daggers will be one of the few objects we can interact with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The lack of emotes doesn't suddenly make it a murder simulator and that wasn't my point. I grew alarmed when Ryan expressed that he wished to understand the value of writing, notes books and scrolls.
If the value of storytelling has to be explained to the developer of a fantasy game, then what sort of game is he intending to make?
Everything about PFO was then called into question for me by that one disclosure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The lack of emotes doesn't suddenly make it a murder simulator and that wasn't my point. I grew alarmed when Ryan expressed that he wished to understand the value of writing, notes books and scrolls.
If the value of storytelling has to be explained to the developer of a fantasy game, then what sort of game is he intending to make?
Everything about PFO was then called into question for me by that one disclosure.
I also had that thought occur that said "Maybe I won't be playing this game very long after all." I had to take a few moments to tell myself to take it with a grain of salt and see what turns out though.
Personally, I did not quit WoW because I got tired of the repetitious themepark. I quit WoW because everyone else seemingly didn't. I originally came for the game, as most of my roleplay was being done in chatrooms at the time, and ended up staying for the roleplay. Vanilla was the glory days and I could find it everywhere. But expansion after expansion and patch after patch it faded away. And not because my roleplaying friends were leaving. On the contrary, they were playing more than ever. But they never wanted to roleplay. The amount of content grew to such an extent that they lacked the time to roleplay because they were trying to keep pace with end-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Profession: Murderhobo skill ranks
Would the skill activation icon look like this?
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the sounds of this, it seems like we'll be doing well to have a game world with more depth than Rock'em Sock'em Robots.How does Emotes and Chair sitting add to the depth of the game?
How does stabbing people in the face add to the depth of the game? You could just type *stabs Someguy in the face!* and use your imagination, right?
Luckily for those wanting a murder simulator, daggers will be one of the few objects we can interact with.
We do that with PnP
On a more serious note, Swinging a sword and Emotes are on a different level. Sure you can compare them if you wish, but its not in the same league with what could be in the game and what needs to be in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did anyone mention mail and maybe a journal to keep important messages from other players in. How can leaders actually lead a large group if they cant send out instructions for people to read when they come online. How are we going to organize a settlements activities if we cant read about what is being done and when it will happen. Or do we just /shout everything , jk. I'm not saying we should be able to mail items, just text.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The lack of emotes doesn't suddenly make it a murder simulator and that wasn't my point. I grew alarmed when Ryan expressed that he wished to understand the value of writing, notes books and scrolls.
If the value of storytelling has to be explained to the developer of a fantasy game, then what sort of game is he intending to make?
Everything about PFO was then called into question for me by that one disclosure.
I think the point was that sitting in chairs and writing notes doesn't add significantly to the storytelling nature of a MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most of this seems way beyond the scope of what Goblinworks has said they want to do.
It's like if Ford said they were making an economy sedan and you guys are complaining that it doesn't have leather seats.
Anytime someone has asked for more PvE features they're quickly shot down. Why would Roleplaying features be more important?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most of this seems way beyond the scope of what Goblinworks has said they want to do.
It's like if Ford said they were making an economy sedan and you guys are complaining that it doesn't have leather seats.
Anytime someone has asked for more PvE features they're quickly shot down. Why would Roleplaying features be more important?
IMO it isn't just about this RP issue. It is more of a cumulative affect of some of the things and philosophies that are being dribbled out. I am fine if it is some kind of readjustment between the "Golden Age" of assumption and the realization of... well "Reality".
Some of what Ryan sees as "Reality" or likely social development (in game) is just not what I had come to believe would be the case.
The things that I had thought would be different about PfO are not necessarily the same things that ARE going to be. That is fine, and I will still give it a try. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that what Ryan is getting at is that any non-combat playacting will not interest most players unless it helps character development, or aids the settlement. So instead of asking for a /dance emote , we should ask to be able to build a settlement beer hall that can give us a morale bonus if we get , say 100 people dancing and guzzling at the same time. You still get your dance ,sit and drink animations but it becomes a major part of the social life of a settlement, because people get a buff to their character and settlement for doing it. Now the grain farm becomes a good target for your enemies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that what Ryan is getting at is that any non-combat playacting will not interest most players unless it helps character development, or aids the settlement.
This has been proven wrong in several well known cases, especially in MMOs. Star Wars Galaxies was sustained for far longer than it would have by the strength of its IP and the players willing to do non combat professions as role players. Lord of the Rings Online is another example of the power that RP community sustaining an otherwise strong IP.
Pathfinder Online has been pitched to a strong RP community. It wasn't stated that their access to RP mechanics would have to be tied to how it contributes settlement mechanics. Role playing contributes to a game's social environment which enhances the game in every aspect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pathfinder Online has been pitched to a strong RP community. It wasn't stated that their access to RP mechanics would have to be tied to how it contributes settlement mechanics. Role playing contributes to a game's social environment which enhances the game in every aspect.
Very well said and I agree completely!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that what Ryan is getting at is that any non-combat playacting will not interest most players unless it helps character development, or aids the settlement. So instead of asking for a /dance emote , we should ask to be able to build a settlement beer hall that can give us a morale bonus if we get , say 100 people dancing and guzzling at the same time. You still get your dance ,sit and drink animations but it becomes a major part of the social life of a settlement, because people get a buff to their character and settlement for doing it. Now the grain farm becomes a good target for your enemies.
Hah! Now there's an idea!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that what Ryan is getting at is that any non-combat playacting will not interest most players unless it helps character development, or aids the settlement. So instead of asking for a /dance emote , we should ask to be able to build a settlement beer hall that can give us a morale bonus if we get , say 100 people dancing and guzzling at the same time. You still get your dance ,sit and drink animations but it becomes a major part of the social life of a settlement, because people get a buff to their character and settlement for doing it. Now the grain farm becomes a good target for your enemies.
yeah and to be honest, that's the direction i wanted to go in anyways. There are several examples of systems that have already been proposed by GW's for the game that can be crowdforged into having more roleplay elements. Assassinations that matter? Sweet jeezus that's years of great roleplay right there. GW's has also given us the "spirit index" that can be tied to any # of roleplay activities.
I'm for it, if we as roleplayers have to "leave the matrix" and re-think how we want roleplay sprinkled into the every day gaming lives of everyone on the server then i say everybody will end up better off for it!
Take as a quick example, 100 beerdrinkers giving an advantage. Ok now, every settlement is forced to do it. The guild that has more FUN (the ultimate currency in an online game) doing it has a distinct advantage in recruitment and the execution of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf ,Yeah , well I was trying to think of a way you can get what you want, by adding to it what a majority of players will vote for . Crowdforging is all about the votes in the end , isn't it? Roleplaying is a part of all that is done in-game, but I think you need to add a reason for doing things like /sit to get a majority to vote for it. We know why we go /attack something , I'm just saying you need to add to /sit , some reason that makes it a social event for most people .
Am I wrong about how crowdforging will work, is it going to be what got the most votes is always next or what? It seems a problem that if you have a strong 40% of players who roleplay but cant ever get what they vote for. Anyway , if you can ask for anything ,then thinking of ways to make RP tools useful to most players should be possible.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Crowdforging is all about the votes in the end , isn't it?
No. It would very dangerous to assume Crowdforging will just be a series of votes. That won't work. We can't have a game designed by majority rule.
Crowdforging needs to be a matrix of ways that people can influence the design. Some of those things will be simple polls. But some of it has to incorporate more nuanced approaches.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Imagine Crowdforging as a way to help set an initial idea of priorities. When a list of items with initial priorities is established, they get reviewed for feasibility, dependencies, cost to implement, legalities, etc... The final prioritized list gets shifted around based on all of those considerations.
Or at least, this is how I would understand it as a programmer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Crowdforging is all about the votes in the end , isn't it?No. It would very dangerous to assume Crowdforging will just be a series of votes. That won't work. We can't have a game designed by majority rule.
Crowdforging needs to be a matrix of ways that people can influence the design. Some of those things will be simple polls. But some of it has to incorporate more nuanced approaches.
Im glad you cleared that up, I thought it was kinda like a pirate crew that decides what they want to do next, good to hear that the captain is setting the course and not the crew.
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Goblin Squad Member
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we should ask to be able to build a settlement beer hall that can give us a morale bonus if we get , say 100 people dancing and guzzling at the same time.That's pretty good!
Although that is a great idea, that is still a micro view of role playing. I see role playing as an aura that permeates everything that we do in a much broader sense. It does not have to have a quantitative benefit in order for it to add to the overall quality of the gaming experience.
Here is how I see role playing to enhance my experience. I plan on playing a human raider of outposts, POIs and caravans. I plan I taking what I loot and bringing that tony settlement. I'll exchange that loot for gold or or training. I rinse and repeat this never bei g cycle. It is very generic, very quantitative.
I along with the core leadership of the UnNamed Company are what remains of a marooned raiding ship from the Linnorm Kingdoms. We had made our journey over land from the south, and were passing through the River Kingdoms. We settled in for the winter, and during those months we had learned of the River Freedoms. We discovered that the cultural norms were not very much unlike that of our homeland. We decided to stay for a while and put our passion for raiding to good use, for a settlement willing to take us in.
We /raise a mug of mead to our new land. During our raids we /battle cry just before our attack begins. We /blow battle horn to signal our reserve to join the battle. When the battle us done we / drink, / dance and / drink some more... Well until the night. We then return to our fort or hideout and we /sleep just before we log off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did anyone mention mail and maybe a journal to keep important messages from other players in. How can leaders actually lead a large group if they cant send out instructions for people to read when they come online. How are we going to organize a settlements activities if we cant read about what is being done and when it will happen. Or do we just /shout everything , jk. I'm not saying we should be able to mail items, just text.
I would guess GW expects organizations to handle their communications outside of game, through systems like private forums and Teamspeak. The bigger groups established thus far already have those communication systems in place. It would be good for the smaller groups or individuals that remain to set up their own forums or look at forging closer relations with the bigger groups who have them, so by the time EE rolls around people actually know the people they plan to play with and how to use those communications systems to get messages out quickly.
In the time before settlements are able to be built, and especially if PvP is implemented without the rep or alignment systems in place, the game will boil down to roving gank squads, and you'll need to know who you're supposed to murder and who's supposed to help you do the required face-stabbing.|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that what Ryan is getting at is that any non-combat playacting will not interest most players unless it helps character development, or aids the settlement. So instead of asking for a /dance emote , we should ask to be able to build a settlement beer hall that can give us a morale bonus if we get , say 100 people dancing and guzzling at the same time. You still get your dance ,sit and drink animations but it becomes a major part of the social life of a settlement, because people get a buff to their character and settlement for doing it. Now the grain farm becomes a good target for your enemies.
Combined with singing an apropos but inappropriate song. (Language caution)