Frankly I just hope Paizo is agreeing with some of the feedback here that the Slayer does need some more distinctive features given the changes in the other classes since in the revision.
Slayer's Momentum
When the Slayer reduces kills Favored Target he may make an immediate charge attack against another Favored Target in reach.Still not sure on what type of interaction FT and SA should have
Yeah, tricky thing with design and balancing is even if you think A is done, any modifications you make to B might cause A to require adjustments.
I love the idea of Slayer's Momentum. A cool unique Talent.
Possibly a lot of design space for things reminiscent of Deadly Juggernaut (applied to Favored Targets of course).
Frankly I just hope Paizo is agreeing with some of the feedback here that the Slayer does need some more distinctive features given the changes in the other classes since in the revision.
Anyway some talent ideas for fun
Talents
Menacing Slayer
When the Slayer hits his Favored Target, he may make an Intimidate check to demoralize his Favored Target. The Slayer gains a bonus on Intimidate checks against hit Favored Target equal to his Favored Target bonus.
(So you don't have to rely on Cornugon Smash, less feat taxes to use your abilities reliably the better)Advanced Talents
Slayer's Momentum
When the Slayer kills Favored Target he may make an immediate charge attack against another Favored Target in reach.Still not sure on what type of interaction FT and SA should have
Drop the portion about gaining the bonus to intimidate. Stalker gained at 7th already does that for you.
This makes Ranged Intimidate Attacks pretty cool.
A core Cornugon Smash option is nice.
You know, it's good to free up some stat points for charisma and/or intelligence, but if that's at the cost of widening the net for even more dervish dance abhorance... No thanks. Admittedly, it's my single least favourite feat in the game, so I may be somewhat predisposed to dislike it.
Due to the Magus, the Dervish Dance feat has left a sour taste in my mouth, too. If they are thinking of 'extending the line' to other weapons, I may have less of an issue granted they keep them balanced.
You know, it's good to free up some stat points for charisma and/or intelligence, but if that's at the cost of widening the net for even more dervish dance abhorance... No thanks. Admittedly, it's my single least favourite feat in the game, so I may be somewhat predisposed to dislike it.Due to the Magus, the Dervish Dance feat has left a sour taste in my mouth, too. If they are thinking of 'extending the line' to other weapons, I may have less of an issue granted they keep them balanced.
Dervish Dance is a small issue of the Magus. High Crit weapons combined with Spellstrike is what really makes it gross.
Dervish Dance is a small issue of the Magus. High Crit weapons combined with Spellstrike is what really makes it gross.You know, it's good to free up some stat points for charisma and/or intelligence, but if that's at the cost of widening the net for even more dervish dance abhorance... No thanks. Admittedly, it's my single least favourite feat in the game, so I may be somewhat predisposed to dislike it.Due to the Magus, the Dervish Dance feat has left a sour taste in my mouth, too. If they are thinking of 'extending the line' to other weapons, I may have less of an issue granted they keep them balanced.
This.
The magus with dervish dance is no big deal... still does pretty weak damage as a class and has accuracy issues.
The issue is with a high crit threat weapon and intensified/maximized shocking grasps plus spellstrike. TBH, this same build would be pretty much just -4 or 5 damage per nova hit without dervish dance... which is a drop in the bucket in the overall scheme of things.
What is good about a core option for "improved finesse" is that it is only really going to be a big help to the Rogue, Slayer, Fighter and perhaps investigator and bard... and aside from bard, all the classes that this is going to boost up actually kinda need it.
Advanced Talents
Slayer's Momentum
When the Slayer kills Favored Target he may make an immediate charge attack against another Favored Target in reach.Still not sure on what type of interaction FT and SA should have
I like this one. Star Wars Saga Edition had a feat like this, Follow Through, that had Cleave as a prerequisite, and allowed you to move up to your speed after dropping someone and then make an attack.
Frankly I just hope Paizo is agreeing with some of the feedback here that the Slayer does need some more distinctive features given the changes in the other classes since in the revision.
Anyway some talent ideas for fun
Talents
Menacing Slayer
When the Slayer hits his Favored Target, he may make an Intimidate check to demoralize his Favored Target. The Slayer gains a bonus on Intimidate checks against hit Favored Target equal to his Favored Target bonus.
(So you don't have to rely on Cornugon Smash, less feat taxes to use your abilities reliably the better)Advanced Talents
Slayer's Momentum
When the Slayer kills Favored Target he may make an immediate charge attack against another Favored Target in reach.Still not sure on what type of interaction FT and SA should have
These are good talent ideas. I love the thought of killing a dude from the shadows and then making the guy next to him pee his pants in fear.
I like the idea of the slayer as the boogeyman.
Dervish Dance is a small issue of the Magus. High Crit weapons combined with Spellstrike is what really makes it gross.You know, it's good to free up some stat points for charisma and/or intelligence, but if that's at the cost of widening the net for even more dervish dance abhorance... No thanks. Admittedly, it's my single least favourite feat in the game, so I may be somewhat predisposed to dislike it.Due to the Magus, the Dervish Dance feat has left a sour taste in my mouth, too. If they are thinking of 'extending the line' to other weapons, I may have less of an issue granted they keep them balanced.This.
The magus with dervish dance is no big deal... still does pretty weak damage as a class and has accuracy issues.
The issue is with a high crit threat weapon and intensified/maximized shocking grasps plus spellstrike. TBH, this same build would be pretty much just -4 or 5 damage per nova hit without dervish dance... which is a drop in the bucket in the overall scheme of things.
.
Oh most definitely. It's really the whole build that leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Which is why I wouldn't have an issue with them extending the feat line to other weapons. I don't want one class build to tint my lenses for an entire line of feats.
Doesn't stop my nose from scrunching up every time I hear the name of the feat, though.
So would it be overpowered to allow a Slayer to get SA damage without flanking or flat-footing a Favored Target? Maybe change it to something other than "Sneak Attack" and only give the damage when a target is a Favored Target. Those who are immune to precision damage or have concealment cant be affected the same as SA. That would allow for a viable "Sneak Attack" Archer build, which would be the only real concept that would appeal to me with a class like this.
I can't help thinking that the slayer would be fine if you removed spells from the ranger and just inserted SA. And Maybe just changed FE to the way FT works... but of course, that removes the talents. So how to keep those in? Maybe look at the way the skirmisher ranger-archtype works... thoughts?
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So would it be overpowered to allow a Slayer to get SA damage without flanking or flat-footing a Favored Target? Maybe change it to something other than "Sneak Attack" and only give the damage when a target is a Favored Target. Those who are immune to precision damage or have concealment cant be affected the same as SA. That would allow for a viable "Sneak Attack" Archer build, which would be the only real concept that would appeal to me with a class like this.
I'd take half SA versus FT (minimum 1d6?) And be happy if all is too much. I think the concern is that that would be too much damage versus a ranger. I don't know if that is a legitimate concern.
Seize the Moment
The first time the Slayer attacks his Favored Target, if that target is flanked or denied his Dex bonus to AC, the Slayer may make an attack with a weapon in each hand as a Standard Action.
Acrobat's Opening
If the Slayer makes a successful Acrobatics check to move through his Favored Target's square and ends his move in a flanking position with his original square, that opponent is treated as flanked until the end of your turn.
Distracted Target
If the Slayer's Favored Target is flanked by at least two of the Slayer's allies, he may take a -2 to hit on all attacks this round to treat that creature as flanked by the Slayer, though he does not receive the attack bonus associated with that condition.
(This one could probably be worded much better)
Fleeting Advantage
Whenever the Slayer makes an attack of opportunity against his Favored Target, he may take a -4 to AC until his next turn to treat that opponent as flat-footed for that attack.
Just some ideas. Some are probably highly abusable, but I wanted to work on some things to tie the FT and SA together.
In response to all the calls for a "new" aspect to be added to the Slayer I thought of a possible mechanic. It scales in power preaty heavily and might be too much to add to the class. But if people like the idea and designers like the idea it could certainly be modified to whatever power level is appropriate. Such as by adding #/per day limitations or changing up the spell like abilities.
I thought about what a true hunter/killer needs to do his work. The Slayer has nearly everything he needs to seek and destroy a target. There is however an aspect of being able to Find and Target anyone, anywhere, at any time that I have always wanted to see in an assassin or bountyhunter type class.
Slayer's Trance: This ability allows the Slayer to meditate, entering a trance in which he may find an intended target (favored target) and plan an attack. As the Slayer gains levels he becomes more attuned to this method of stalking his prey allowing for greater levels of remote viewing. Multiple trance abilities may be used in the same trance extending the ammount of time needed to perform the trance. The Slayer uses his Slayer level as caster level for his trance abilities.
Level 5 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Augury as a spell like ability against existing Favored Targets. Questions must be in regard to finding and killing his target.
Level 10 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Clairaudience/Clairvoyance as a spell like ability. The Slayer may select Favored Targets against enemies seen by Clairvoyance.
Level 15 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Scrying as a spell like ability. He may select the creature he is scrying against as a Favored Target. If scrying against an existing Favored Target the Slayer adds his Favored Target bonus to the Will Save DC to resist being scried on.
Level 20 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Discern Location as a spel like ability. This trance ability may only be used against existing Favored Targets.
.....
::EDIT:: I hope this doesn't come off as too rediculously OP. It is just a long time desire of mine to see an assassin/bountyhunter type class with an ability like this.
In response to all the calls for a "new" aspect to be added to the Slayer I thought of a possible mechanic. It scales in power preaty heavily and might be too much to add to the class. But if people like the idea and designers like the idea it could certainly be modified to whatever power level is appropriate. Such as by adding #/per day limitations or changing up the spell like abilities.
I thought about what a true hunter/killer needs to do his work. The Slayer has nearly everything he needs to seek and destroy a target. There is however an aspect of being able to Find and Target anyone, anywhere, at any time that I have always wanted to see in an assassin or bountyhunter type class.
Slayer's Trance: This ability allows the Slayer to meditate, entering a trance in which he may find an intended target (favored target) and plan an attack. As the Slayer gains levels he becomes more attuned to this method of stalking his prey allowing for greater levels of remote viewing. Multiple trance abilities may be used in the same trance extending the ammount of time needed to perform the trance. The Slayer uses his Slayer level as caster level for his trance abilities.
Level 5 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Augury as a spell like ability against existing Favored Targets. Questions must be in regard to finding and killing his target.
Level 10 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Clairaudience/Clairvoyance as a spell like ability. The Slayer may select Favored Targets against enemies seen by Clairvoyance.
Level 15 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Scrying as a spell like ability. He may select the creature he is scrying against as a Favored Target. If scrying against an existing Favored Target the Slayer adds his Favored Target bonus to the Will Save DC to resist being scried on.
Level 20 - Trance allows the Slayer to use Discern Location as a spel like ability. This trance ability may only be used against existing Favored Targets.
.....
::EDIT:: I hope this doesn't come off as...
I love it. Find the Path needs to be on that list in regards to a person though for me to really desire it.
It's flavorful and then we wouldn't *need* Diplomacy.
Seize the Moment
The first time the Slayer attacks his Favored Target, if that target is flanked or denied his Dex bonus to AC, the Slayer may make an attack with a weapon in each hand as a Standard Action.Acrobat's Opening
If the Slayer makes a successful Acrobatics check to move through his Favored Target's square and ends his move in a flanking position with his original square, that opponent is treated as flanked until the end of your turn.Fleeting Advantage
Whenever the Slayer makes an attack of opportunity against his Favored Target, he may take a -4 to AC until his next turn to treat that opponent as flat-footed for that attack.Just some ideas. Some are probably highly abusable, but I wanted to work on some things to tie the FT and SA together.
I like these. Especially Acrobat's Opening.
Slayer Talents
Precision Slayer: As a standard action, make a single attack against a favored target. For every six slayer levels, you receive an addition +1d6 to your sneak attack.
Opportunistic Cleave: Once per round, when you gain an additional attack from the Cleave feat(or its improvements, such as Great Cleave), you can add your sneak attack damage to your second attack as though your foe were flanked.
Advanced Talents
Slayer's Bane: You may use two of your sneak attack dice against a favored target, even if they are not flanked, flat-flooted, or unable to add their Dex bonus to AC.
I love it. Find the Path needs to be on that list in regards to a person though for me to really desire it.
It's flavorful and then we wouldn't *need* Diplomacy.
Thanks. That one would fit on the list or make a good replacement for something. I am not familiar with all the scrying/locating type spells in the game. The list is made up of ones I could remember and find on the fly. Thanks again though.
We shall see if designers like it. It is a pretty powerful addition to the class. On the other hand, balancing factors are in place. The slow progression from 5th to 20th level is one. Another factor is the casting times associated with the spell like abilities I found. They are high casting times and therefore can't just be done on the fly. They require planning and time to be in a quiet, safe place.
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On the third hand, it's adding a bunch of spell-like abilities to a class that is otherwise completely nonmagical.
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Yeah...I kinda like the fact that the Slayer is non-magical entirely. Magic is king in this game, but a refreshingly non supernatural character is good once in a while, especially when they very definitely don't suck.
On the other hand...those are pretty neat. Maybe an archetype that retains some of the Ranger's more supernatural bent is in order?
"The Cutthroat Clairvoyant". =)
On the third hand, it's adding a bunch of spell-like abilities to a class that is otherwise completely nonmagical.
A scaling talent wouldn't be bad. Its pretty much just utility in a class rather short on utility.
I wasn't under the impression the class needed to be completely non-magical.
On another note, I noticed Foil Scrutiny is missing a descriptor.
EDIT: An Archetype would be mighty pleasing, though I hope it only trades out a bunch of talents in exchange.
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It's actually a more classic reference.
Those were great books.
On the third hand, it's adding a bunch of spell-like abilities to a class that is otherwise completely nonmagical.
True statement. I completely understand leaving this kind of thing out if it's against the class concept. I would actually love for a similar set of abilities to be added without being magical. Some sort of (Ex) ability based on remote vision as featured in the movie Suspect Zero rather than Wizardly magic. But it might not work.
On the third hand, it's adding a bunch of spell-like abilities to a class that is otherwise completely nonmagical.
Rogue and Minor/Major Magic and Minor/Major Eldritch Magic say hi. :3
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Rogue and Minor/Major Magic and Minor/Major Eldritch Magic say hi. :3
An elective pair of Sp abilities for an otherwise nonmagical class is very different than adding a default four Sp abilities for an otherwise nonmagical class.
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Rogue and Minor/Major Magic and Minor/Major Eldritch Magic say hi. :3An elective pair of Sp abilities for an otherwise nonmagical class is very different than adding a default four Sp abilities for an otherwise nonmagical class.
What I don't understand is why are you adding classes to the game in a book called 'The Advanced Class Guide' and all the classes don't have at least some kind of supernatural, spell like ability, or actual casting. Pure melee classes don't seem very 'Advanced'. The Slayer, the Brawler, and even the Swashbuckler, to some degree, feel like they are lacking in what I would consider advanced abilities.
I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just kinda confused about this point.
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What I don't understand is why are you adding classes to the game in a book called 'The Advanced Class Guide' and all the classes don't have at least some kind of supernatural, spell like ability, or actual casting. Pure melee classes don't seem very 'Advanced'. The Slayer, the Brawler, and even the Swashbuckler, to some degree, feel like they are lacking in what I would consider advanced abilities.
I don't see how "add magical abilities to it" automatically makes something more "advanced."
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I think "advanced" is more related to the concept of the classes.
Fighting guy - basic concept
Sneaky Guy - basic concept
SneakyFighting Guy - slightly more complex.
And I for one am always in favor of non-magic using classes. I think they still have plenty of design space.
What I don't understand is why are you adding classes to the game in a book called 'The Advanced Class Guide' and all the classes don't have at least some kind of supernatural, spell like ability, or actual casting. Pure melee classes don't seem very 'Advanced'. The Slayer, the Brawler, and even the Swashbuckler, to some degree, feel like they are lacking in what I would consider advanced abilities.I don't see how "add magical abilities to it" automatically makes something more "advanced."
I agree. In fact, this is the only one of the advanced classes that I, personally, find interesting. While I do think that there needs to be a better synergy between FT and SA, I don't think that the base class "needs" to have magic abilities as part of it.
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I'm curious Sean, what's the designers feel at Paizo right now on the Slayer?
Is it considered done or are you guys debating adding certain things?
Also curious! I'm hoping for an update on many of the other classes soon as well.
I'm sure they're tirelessly plugging away at things--but it'd be cool to hear about what directions they're leaning towards.
I think "advanced" is more related to the concept of the classes.
Fighting guy - basic concept
Sneaky Guy - basic concept
SneakyFighting Guy - slightly more complex.
Interesting, because I don't see "more complex" as the same as "advanced".
And I for one am always in favor of non-magic using classes.
I agree, I think the non-magic using classes can be quite fun to play.
Strickly speaking, any class that does more than "press A to attack" is advanced. :)
Strictly speaking, pressing A to attack is advanced because you have to still add up your BAB, strength bonus, and other factors. Assuming that we're speaking from a position of such relativity that words lose nearly all meaning.
In practice, it's still a million times more "advanced" to play a Wizard than it is to play a Fighter (even though he has combat maneuvers).
I don't see the Slayer as a particularly advanced class, but then again it's also pretty solid as it is now.
More Favored Target/Sneak Attack synergy WOULD be cool though, as I've mentioned.
Maybe that could be the "advanced" part, give some ways for those to interact, or perhaps new options for Favored Target, like replacing the bonus to-hit/damage with debuffs of various sorts, or trading out Sneak Attack dice for adding conditions.
If nothing else, adding these as Slayer Talent options fixes the problem of the dearth of unique Talents.
This class strikes me as the ultimate assassin. He's going to suffer from the same fate all mundane characters suffer from at high level: casters will eat his lunch. Besides that this class looks like one heck of a damage dealer and the ultimate sniper.
Getting Diplomacy as a Class Skill is trivially easy.
There are at least half a dozen traits which do it.
Alternatively, it might be part of the 'spy' Slayer archetype, I don't think it is needed for the core concept.
I know about the traits, BUT that is not the same as teh class having it automatically.
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Remember, there is a difference between
1) "I think skill X is iconic and essential for this class," and
2) "I think the class could find skill X useful in some circumstances."
The first translates to "the class should have skill X as a class skill."
The second translates to "skill X isn't an essential part of this class concept," so if you want it as a class skill you can choose to take a trait for that, or take Skill Focus in it.
UMD is kind of in the middle here; for balance let's call it #2.
Diplomacy is essential for the Slayer class. They need it for gather information, for gaining access to targets, and for coordinating with other characters. Also, of course, for making optimal use of Betrayer. :) The Slayer isn't a traditional kind of "face" character but if they are in any way more assassinate-y than a Rogue, they ought to share Diplomacy as a class skill. No fancy rerolls, no adjusting more than one attitudes, just basic, vanilla skill bonuses to do their job. I cannot imagine how a slayer would function in an urban environment without this skill.
I dont think UMD fits at all, but Diplomacy makes perfect sense. When you get sent to Cheliax to kill John Hancock you need to be sure you get the right John Hancock.
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Killer Memory
When a Slayer with this talent deals Sneak Attack damage to his Favored Target, for the next round he may deal Sneak Attack damage against that target even if the target is not flanked or denied Dex bonus to AC.Talent idea. This way if a Slayer gets the jump on a target, and continues to go after that target and hit, he continues getting that SA bonus. Alternatively, he has a flanking ally for one round, the following rounds that ally can move on to other targets without denying use of SA. This allows the Slayer to do his job of slaying one target, without allowing him to have "always on" sneak attack, as he both has to hit, and has to set it up again on the next target.
EDIT: Changed to include Favored Target as per Scavion's excellent suggestion.
I like this also. :)
@Rogue Eidolon — You earlier mentioned switch-hitting being a bad idea; what do you see as the "primary", "default", or otherwise relatively optimized slayer build? Approximations are fine.
Part of me wonders whether it would end up being a STR build that spends a feat on heavy armor and functions as a frontliner (but with skills). But seems kinda wrong.
I agree for the most part, at least with the two handed weapon idea.
@Rogue Eidolon — You earlier mentioned switch-hitting being a bad idea; what do you see as the "primary", "default", or otherwise relatively optimized slayer build? Approximations are fine.
Part of me wonders whether it would end up being a STR build that spends a feat on heavy armor and functions as a frontliner (but with skills). But seems kinda wrong.
I'm sure a switch-hitter build is good. They're very popular. I've personally never gotten it to work better than a pure build. They've not been bad for me, per se, just unfocused and so obviously not keeping up with one or the other.
So far Tiffany just goes front-line in light armor, and I'm considering Mithral Breastplate as her next armor upgrade. Pure archer is also pretty legit, though Sneak Attack is going to be pretty tough to get without party assistance.
Pure builds almost always trump switch hitters because they give up power for versatility.
On the third hand, it's adding a bunch of spell-like abilities to a class that is otherwise completely nonmagical.
I don't want any SLA's either. It does fit IMHO.
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Watcher jeez all that can go in one post ya know.