|
Are: Therein lies why you are getting it wrong. While, yes, the effect actually occurs in game round 2, for the caster who hasn't acted in game round 2, the effect occurs within the confines of that character's first round. So when the caster goes in round 2, two rounds of duration have been consumed, even though both called bolts occur in "game round 2".
The actual "game round" is an arbitrary cut-off to help the players maintain a semblance of order. Rounds of duration, effects, etc. are based upon when they occur in the initiative count wholly separate from the "game round".
Are: Therein lies why you are getting it wrong. While, yes, the effect actually occurs in game round 2, for the caster who hasn't acted in game round 2, the effect occurs within the confines of that character's first round. So when the caster goes in round 2, two rounds of duration have been consumed, even though both called bolts occur in "game round 2".
No, for the very reason you state in your next paragraph.
Rounds of duration, effects, etc. are based upon when they occur in the initiative count wholly separate from the "game round".
Exactly. If we assume (for the sake of argument, since 20.1 could be misinterpreted) that initiative count 21 occurs just before your initative count of 20, then the spell's duration begins on initiative count 21. Because, the spell comes into effect just before your next turn.
The first round of its duration extends from initiative count 21 that turn, past the caster's initiative count of 20, until initiative count 21 on the following round. And so on.
***
Can I ask how you (HangarFlying and mplindustries) handle summoning spells? Say, any summon monster spell cast by a 10th level wizard in round 1?
By my interpretation, the summoned monster will be able to act 10 times (during rounds 2-11), while by your interpretation it seems that it can only act 9 times (during rounds 2-10, since you say the duration begins the round of casting).
So if I summon a creature using Summon Monster I, it disappears as soon as it appears? It disappears before turn 2 even starts so it can't even make a single attack?
If you are Caster Level 1 and you cast Summon Monster 1, they appear immediately before your turn on round 2, they get their actions as normal, then they disappear before your action.
PS - Summon Monster 1 is not a very good spell.
Can I ask how you (HangarFlying and mplindustries) handle summoning spells? Say, any summon monster spell cast by a 10th level wizard in round 1?
By my interpretation, the summoned monster will be able to act 10 times (during rounds 2-11), while by your interpretation it seems that it can only act 9 times (during rounds 2-10, since you say the duration begins the round of casting).
They act 10 times. Immediately upon finishing the casting, then on each of the next 9 rounds (rounds 2-10).
They act 10 times. Immediately upon finishing the casting, then on each of the next 9 rounds (rounds 2-9).Can I ask how you (HangarFlying and mplindustries) handle summoning spells? Say, any summon monster spell cast by a 10th level wizard in round 1?
By my interpretation, the summoned monster will be able to act 10 times (during rounds 2-11), while by your interpretation it seems that it can only act 9 times (during rounds 2-10, since you say the duration begins the round of casting).
So, in your view, the summoned monster, once it appears, gets to act twice before an enemy can act? When it appears (just before your initiative count on round 2), then again on your round 2?
If that's not what you're saying, then please state how you see it working, if the caster acts at, say, initiative 20 and the enemy at initiative 10.
They act 10 times. Immediately upon finishing the casting, then on each of the next 9 rounds (rounds 2-9).Can I ask how you (HangarFlying and mplindustries) handle summoning spells? Say, any summon monster spell cast by a 10th level wizard in round 1?
By my interpretation, the summoned monster will be able to act 10 times (during rounds 2-11), while by your interpretation it seems that it can only act 9 times (during rounds 2-10, since you say the duration begins the round of casting).
So, in your view, the summoned monster, once it appears, gets to act twice before an enemy can act? When it appears (just before your initiative count on round 2), then again on your round 2?
If that's not what you're saying, then please state how you see it working, if the caster acts at, say, initiative 20 and the enemy at initiative 10.
Yes. It acts immediately upon completion of the spell, and on your turn.
Any other interpretation makes standard action summoning pointless (unless you're desperate to move more than 5').
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, thank you. In my view, that's not the intended behaviour, but it certainly clarifies your position. Since we run these types of spells completely differently, I don't think we'll be able to agree, so I'll stop posting here and leave others to make up their own minds :)
***
Edit: With standard action summoning the creature would come right away on the same turn, since the spell would no longer use the special rule for spells with a "1 round" casting time. Thus, it would act immediately, even before your move action if so desired.
My disagreement with hangarflyer's and mplindustries' interpretation is the idea that 'character rounds' exist separate from 'combat rounds'. I don't see that included anywhere in RAW.
When you reach the final action of the last person in the initiative count for round 1, then you begin round 2. All combatants are now in round 2, regardless of whether they have yet acted in that round or not; they're not in a metaphysical 'round 1 still' simply because they have not acted.
Thus, right before the caster's initiative count comes up in round 2, a bolt of lightning automatically comes down, at which point you start counting duration; at that time, that lightning bolt has occurred in combat round 2, and so the caster cannot use his standard action to call another bolt because the spell states it can only be done once per round.
Now, if the spell stated that you could call down lightning bolts "on each of your turns* thereafter" or "once on your turn" then I would agree.
But as it stands, I see 'rounds' referring to the period of time from the start of the action of the creature with the highest initiative count to the end of the action of the creature with the lowest initiative count. As soon as that last action ends, every combatant is in round 2.
*I use the word 'turns' here because although the text doesn't define it, it's used frequently in the books and at-table to define a specific creature's set of actions within a given round.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The spell clearly and explicitly states you get one bolt immediately upon the completion of casting for free (no action), then on the next turn and beyond you can use a standard action to call a bolt.
There is no contradiction, there is no ambiguity.
The spell clearly and explicitly states you get one bolt immediately upon the completion of casting for free (no action), then on the next turn and beyond you can use a standard action to call a bolt.
There is no contradiction, there is no ambiguity.
No, it actually says 'round', which is a defined game term, whereas 'turn' is not defined.
The fact that 'round' and 'turn' are sometimes used interchangeably is actually the cause of the ambiguity.
[edit]
Actually, I'm wrong. 'Turn' is defined, and it means exactly what I said: A turn is all the normal actions that a character takes within a combat round.
Therefore I stand by the idea that you get one lightning bolt in round 2 of combat, and cannot call a second, because the spell is based on combat rounds, and not on the character's turns within those rounds.
Round: Combat is measured in rounds. During an individual round, all creatures have a chance to take a turn to act, in order of initiative. A round represents 6 seconds in the game world.
Turn: In a round, a creature receives one turn, during which it can perform a wide variety of actions. Generally in the course of one turn, a character can perform one standard action, one move action, one swift action, and a number of free actions. Less-common combinations of actions are permissible as well, see Combat for more details.
Edit: With standard action summoning the creature would come right away on the same turn, since the spell would no longer use the special rule for spells with a "1 round" casting time. Thus, it would act immediately, even before your move action if so desired.
This is telling. I don't think the 1 Round cast time changes the duration of a spell in any way, whereas you seem to think it does. I don't understand why you run it that way, but I do think you're right that we won't otherwise agree here.
I don't think the 1 Round cast time changes the duration of a spell in any way, whereas you seem to think it does.
I'll just reply to this one point, in order to clarify my view :)
To me, a spell's duration begins when the spell's effect begins. For most spells (such as those with a swift or standard casting time), this is immediately after the action used to cast.
However, spells with the "1 round" casting time don't come into effect immediately after the action. Instead, the rules state that they come into effect just before your next turn. So that's when the duration begins, as that's when the effect begins.
One reason why I believe this is the case is because you can lose the spell if you lose concentration between your turn ending and the spell's effect beginning, indicating that the casting isn't complete until that point:
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
|
|
My disagreement with hangarflyer's and mplindustries' interpretation is the idea that 'character rounds' exist separate from 'combat rounds'. I don't see that included anywhere in RAW.
When you reach the final action of the last person in the initiative count for round 1, then you begin round 2. All combatants are now in round 2, regardless of whether they have yet acted in that round or not; they're not in a metaphysical 'round 1 still' simply because they have not acted.
Thus, right before the caster's initiative count comes up in round 2, a bolt of lightning automatically comes down, at which point you start counting duration; at that time, that lightning bolt has occurred in combat round 2, and so the caster cannot use his standard action to call another bolt because the spell states it can only be done once per round.
Now, if the spell stated that you could call down lightning bolts "on each of your turns* thereafter" or "once on your turn" then I would agree.
But as it stands, I see 'rounds' referring to the period of time from the start of the action of the creature with the highest initiative count to the end of the action of the creature with the lowest initiative count. As soon as that last action ends, every combatant is in round 2.
*I use the word 'turns' here because although the text doesn't define it, it's used frequently in the books and at-table to define a specific creature's set of actions within a given round.
No, you're not going to find what I have said literally written in the rules, and that doesn't mean that I am wrong in principle. The effects of the casting from round one occur immediately prior to that initiative count of round 2. The caster may then act normally on his initiative count in round 2. This includes being able to call another bolt as a standard action—the first bolt in round 2 as part of the casting from round 1, the second bolt as part of the caster acting normally in round 2.
No, you're not going to find what I have said literally written in the rules, and that doesn't mean that I am wrong in principle. The effects of the casting from round one occur immediately prior to that initiative count of round 2. The caster may then act normally on his initiative count in round 2. This includes being able to call another bolt as a standard action—the first bolt in round 2 as part of the casting from round 1, the second bolt as part of the caster acting normally in round 2.
So then you're letting him call two bolts in one (combat) round, which violates the "and once per round thereafter" statement in the spell (the fact that you started casting in round 1 is irrelevant; the first bolt occurs in round 2).
The basis of your assumption is that 'round' and 'turn' are equivalent terms, and that the spell is limiting the bolts by the 'turn' of the caster. But 'round' and 'turn' aren't equivalent by RAW, and the spell doesn't use the term 'round'.
I agree that the intention of a spell is not always derived from the literal definition of the rules; I disagree that you're right in principle in this instance. But I don't see that it's worthwhile to discuss it further since I've already stated my argument.
It doesn't violate the "once per round thereafter" if "thereafter" means after the first "free action" bolt is cast. If it said "once per round" it'd be clear that your reading is correct. That it says "thereafter" means it's certainly conceivable that more than one bolt was intended to be allowed in that first round.
This is telling. I don't think the 1 Round cast time changes the duration of a spell in any way, whereas you seem to think it does. I don't understand why you run it that way, but I do think you're right that we won't otherwise agree here.Edit: With standard action summoning the creature would come right away on the same turn, since the spell would no longer use the special rule for spells with a "1 round" casting time. Thus, it would act immediately, even before your move action if so desired.
So, you would say that a spell such as Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, with a 10 minute casting time and 5 minute duration, would expire before the spell was finished casting?
So, you would say that a spell such as Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, with a 10 minute casting time and 5 minute duration, would expire before the spell was finished casting?This is telling. I don't think the 1 Round cast time changes the duration of a spell in any way, whereas you seem to think it does. I don't understand why you run it that way, but I do think you're right that we won't otherwise agree here.Edit: With standard action summoning the creature would come right away on the same turn, since the spell would no longer use the special rule for spells with a "1 round" casting time. Thus, it would act immediately, even before your move action if so desired.
No, obviously :P
If I began casting Clairvoyance on round 1, it would complete immediately before my action on turn 101. If it lasted 5 minutes, it would go until turn 150 and end immediately before my turn 151.
Just to clarify, if I cast a Summon Monster with a caster level of 5 on turn 1, it triggers/gets to act immediately before my action on round 2, then on each of my actions in round 2, 3, 4, and 5. It would then disappear/desummon immediately before my action on round 6.
So, you would say that a spell such as Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, with a 10 minute casting time and 5 minute duration, would expire before the spell was finished casting?This is telling. I don't think the 1 Round cast time changes the duration of a spell in any way, whereas you seem to think it does. I don't understand why you run it that way, but I do think you're right that we won't otherwise agree here.Edit: With standard action summoning the creature would come right away on the same turn, since the spell would no longer use the special rule for spells with a "1 round" casting time. Thus, it would act immediately, even before your move action if so desired.
No, obviously :P
If I began casting Clairvoyance on round 1, it would complete immediately before my action on turn 101. If it lasted 5 minutes, it would go until turn 150 and end immediately before my turn 151.
Just to clarify, if I cast a Summon Monster with a caster level of 5 on turn 1, it triggers/gets to act immediately before my action on round 2, then on each of my actions in round 2, 3, 4, and 5. It would then disappear/desummon immediately before my action on round 6.
So, why does the Clairvoyance last the full 5 minutes, 50 rounds (101-150 inclusive), but the Summon Monster only lasts 4 rounds (2-5 inclusive)?
What about Sleep at lvl 1? When does your opponent wake up?
So, why does the Clairvoyance last the full 5 minutes, 50 rounds (101-150 inclusive), but the Summon Monster only lasts 4 rounds (2-5 inclusive)?
Summon Monster lasts 5 rounds, from immediately before my action on round 2, to immediately before my action on turn 6. It includes 5 actions--one immediately upon completion of the spell, and once each on turn 2, 3, 4, and 5.
The same is true of Call Lightning. If I use every available standard action to call lightning with Caster Level 5, I get one immediately before my action on turn 2, and then once each on my turns 2, 3, 4, and 5.
What about Sleep at lvl 1? When does your opponent wake up?
It lasts from immediately before my action on turn 2 to immediately before my action on turn 3.
So, why does the Clairvoyance last the full 5 minutes, 50 rounds (101-150 inclusive), but the Summon Monster only lasts 4 rounds (2-5 inclusive)?Summon Monster lasts 5 rounds, from immediately before my action on round 2, to immediately before my action on turn 6.
Immediately before your action on round 2, to immediately before your action on turn 3 - 1 round
Immediately before your action on round 3, to immediately before your action on turn 4 - 2 roundsImmediately before your action on round 4, to immediately before your action on turn 5 - 3 rounds
Immediately before your action on round 5, to immediately before your action on turn 6 - 4 rounds
By your interpretation Summon Monster lasts only 4 rounds, from immediately before your action on round 2, to immediately before your action on turn 6.
What about Sleep at lvl 1? When does your opponent wake up?It lasts from immediately before my action on turn 2 to immediately before my action on turn 3.
So, it lasts 1 round.
A level 2 Sleep would then last 2 rounds, until immediately before your action on turn 4. Level 3, immediately before your action on turn 5. Level 4, turn 6. Level 5, turn 7. One round longer than a similar level Summon Monster.Why does Summon Monster only last for 4 rounds (immediately before your action on turn 6)? What makes it special?
By your interpretation Summon Monster lasts only 4 rounds, from immediately before your action on round 2, to immediately before your action on turn 6.
No, by me miss counting it lasts 4 rounds. Just before round 7 then, I guess is right.
I see what you did there.
But Call Lightning still lets you call a bolt immediately before your turn on 2, and then during your turn on 2. It's not changed by my miscounting another spell's rounds.
By your interpretation Summon Monster lasts only 4 rounds, from immediately before your action on round 2, to immediately before your action on turn 6.No, by me miss counting it lasts 4 rounds. Just before round 7 then, I guess is right.
I see what you did there.
But Call Lightning still lets you call a bolt immediately before your turn on 2, and then during your turn on 2. It's not changed by my miscounting another spell's rounds.
At 5th level Call Lightning lasts until just before round 7; it doesn't let you call a bolt on the first round
Each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a bolt.
but you can call a bolt on the 4 following rounds (4 being how many rounds would be left of the 5 round duration after the first round)
So,
Round 1 - casting; no bolt
Round 2 - free bolt, call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
Round 5 - call a bolt
Round 6 - call a bolt
Wait... that's too many bolts. You only have 4 rounds (5 - 1 is 4) so you can only call 4 bolts, but I have 5 called bolts (plus one free bolt)
also, it appears that the spell lasts for 6 rounds because of the way in which I numbered my rounds. This time, I'm going to start at Round 0 since that first round, the round spent casting, isn't really part of the duration.
Round 0 - casting; no bolt
Round 1 - free bolt, call a bolt
Round 2 - call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
Round 5 - call a bolt
Okay, the spell only lasts 5 rounds, but we still have one called bolt too many. Hmm.. Oh, that's right! You can't call a bolt in the first round, only in each round after the first.
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - free bolt; (no called bolt)
Round 2 - call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
Round 5 - call a bolt
That's 5 rounds, as expected, and 5 bolts, also as expected.
|
|
This time, I'm going to start at Round 0 since that first round, the round spent casting, isn't really part of the duration.
Round 0 - casting; no bolt
Round 1 - free bolt, call a bolt
Round 2 - call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
Round 5 - call a boltOkay, the spell only lasts 5 rounds, but we still have one called bolt too many. Hmm.. Oh, that's right! You can't call a bolt in the first round, only in each round after the first.
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - free bolt; (no called bolt)
Round 2 - call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
Round 5 - call a boltThat's 5 rounds, as expected, and 5 bolts, also as expected.
This assumption is incorrect because the "free bolt" is made as part of the "1 round" of casting as a full-action. So, while the effect of the "free bolt" occurs immediately before the caster's initiative in Round 1, it is still a part of the act of casting the spell in Round 0. Therefore, Round 0 counts towards one round of duration.
So, to use your example of 5 rounds of duration, it would look like:
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - free bolt, call a bolt
Round 2 - call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
EDIT: regarding call lighting, "duration" is probably a poor way to describe it. It's probably more accurate to say that these are the rounds that the caster can use a "standard action" to call the bolts. The spell would technically last into round 5, but by the time it was the caster's turn in round 5, the spell would have ended. Hopefully that makes sense.
With regards to summon monster, assuming 5 rounds of duration, the summoned creature would attack in a similar manner. The only difference is that the creature would persist into the next round and would disappear immediately prior to the caster's initiative count:
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - creature attacks, creature attacks
Round 2 - creature attacks
Round 3 - creature attacks
Round 4 - creature attacks
Round 5 - creature disappears immediately prior to the caster's turn.
It is important to remember that the first attack, whether a called bolt or a summoned creature, is made as a part of the casting of the spell. This is how it works for the casting of all spells: magic missile, scorching ray, fireball, chill touch. The attacks, and damage, of any spell is made as a part of the casting of that spell. EDIT 2: Call lightning or summon monster having a casting time of 1 round does not change this fact.
Also from the combat section...
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.So a "1 full round casting time" that starts on Initiative 14 in Round 0, ends at Initiative 14 in Round 1. If it then lasts for 5 rounds, that count starts on round 1 init 14 and ends when round 6 init 14 begins.
For instance, a Monster Summoning 1 by a first level caster on init 14...
Round 0, init 14: Begin Casting
Round 1, init 14: Casting ends just before this starts. Monster appears and can act.
Round 2, init 14: Monster disappears just before this turn starts.
Except for that when you cast Summon Monster, it gets to act on Round one, and the Spellcaster has that round free to move, cast another spell, whatever.
At 5th level Call Lightning lasts until just before round 7; it doesn't let you call a bolt on the first round
Each round after the first you may use a standard action (concentrating on the spell) to call a bolt.but you can call a bolt on the 4 following rounds (4 being how many rounds would be left of the 5 round duration after the first round)
So,
Round 1 - casting; no bolt
Round 2 - free bolt, call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
Round 5 - call a bolt
Round 6 - call a boltWait... that's too many bolts. You only have 4 rounds (5 - 1 is 4) so you can only call 4 bolts, but I have 5 called bolts (plus one free bolt)
also, it appears that the spell lasts for 6 rounds because of the way in which I numbered my rounds. This time, I'm going to start at Round 0 since that first round, the round spent casting, isn't really part of the duration.Round 0 - casting; no bolt
Round 1 - free bolt, call a bolt
Round 2 - call a bolt
Round 3 - call a bolt
Round 4 - call a bolt
Round 5 - call a boltOkay, the spell only lasts 5 rounds, but we still have one called bolt too many.
"Duration 1 min./level"- the spell lasts FIVE minute, so your counting by rounds is incorrect.
So, in your view, the summoned monster, once it appears, gets to act twice before an enemy can act? When it appears (just before your initiative count on round 2), then again on your round 2?Yes. It acts immediately upon completion of the spell, and on your turn.
At least you're consistent.
However, from your description a Caster Level 1 summon monster (lasting from immediately before your turn on Round 2, to immediately before your turn on Round 3), would get to act twice, even though it only lasts one round.
I don't think that's your intention (and probably why you said a L.5 one would only last from prior to 2nd to prior to 6th), but that's exactly why you're mistaken here.
You've definitely thought this out, and created a more or less logical structure to it, but that's just not how it is supposed to work. For summon monster or for call lightning.
{Not to MPL specifically}: Call lightning is written specifically, painstakingly so. You can't get two bolts in a round.
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - creature attacks, creature attacks
Round 2 - creature attacks
Round 3 - creature attacks
Round 4 - creature attacks
Round 5 - creature disappears immediately prior to the caster's turn.
Summon Monster lasts for 1 round/lv, so at level 5 it would last for 5 rounds
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - creature attacks, creature attacks
Round 2 - creature attacks
Round 3 - creature attacks
Round 4 - creature attacks
Round 5 - creature attacks
Round 6 - creature disappears immediately prior to the caster's turn.
How you get 6 attacks in 5 rounds, I still don't know, but at least count your rounds correctly.
True, but for example purposes, using an abbreviated duration is perfectly sufficient."Duration 1 min./level"- the spell lasts FIVE minute, so your counting by rounds is incorrect.
No, because his point is that you run out of rounds.
|
|
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - creature attacks, creature attacks
Round 2 - creature attacks
Round 3 - creature attacks
Round 4 - creature attacks
Round 5 - creature disappears immediately prior to the caster's turn.Summon Monster lasts for 1 round/lv, so at level 5 it would last for 5 rounds
Round 0 - casting
Round 1 - creature attacks, creature attacks
Round 2 - creature attacks
Round 3 - creature attacks
Round 4 - creature attacks
Round 5 - creature attacks
Round 6 - creature disappears immediately prior to the caster's turn.How you get 6 attacks in 5 rounds, I still don't know, but at least count your rounds correctly.
Again, the first attack is made as part of the casting, thus round 0 is counted as one round of duration.
Think of it this way: if you cast a quickened summon monster, do you count that round in which the effect occurs as the first round of duration, or do you wait until the next round to start counting?