Sexist at the table


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Silver Crusade

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So I've been watching this go on for the last few days. At the end of the day let's just leave it at this:

1) Speak up when offended politely. NEVER FIGHT AT THE TABLE.

2) If it continues, pull GM aside and chat with them asking them to talk to the other player.

3) If they keep going, send them home. Or leave yourself. I've left tables that have been inappropriate and rude even after asking. From then on, I don't play with those specific people anymore.

As for all the rest, well that's opinions and fluff. The point is that we need to keep this classy bros and broettes. Let's keep it at that.


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Kyle Baird wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
Damalon01 wrote:

I find it amusing that this post is dedicated to the idea of how unacceptable sexism at the gaming table is yet we still have art that screams of sexism (Look at a Pic of Seoni or Amiri. Obviously drawn to attract the male eye).

I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.

You're totally right, dude. The existence of some scantily-clad fictional female characters is absolutely an excuse to abuse actual women trying to play a game and enjoy themselves.
No where in his comment did be state that.
Quote:
I think its a little hypocritical to complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself.

In debate generally, accusations of hypocrisy are most often utilized for the purpose of weakening the position of one's opponent.

In this case specifically, labeling people who "complain about the sexist behavior of some players while overlooking the sexism inherent in the game itself" as "hypocritical" essentially says that complaints about the narrower issue should stop until the broader problem is resolved.

In the current sociopolitical climate in which a debate about sexist behavior takes place, silencing complainers is seen as a way of preserving the status quo.

Therefore, the complaint of hypocrisy is most readily interpreted as an attempt to maintain the status quo, to wit, sexist behavior at the game table.

If that was not the poster's intent, I contend that the fault lies with the phrasing, not with the way it was interpreted.

Liberty's Edge

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It is hard to contribute positively to a thread, even on such an important topic, when tempers are so high :-(

Liberty's Edge

Lady Ophelia wrote:

So I've been watching this go on for the last few days. At the end of the day let's just leave it at this:

1) Speak up when offended politely. NEVER FIGHT AT THE TABLE.

2) If it continues, pull GM aside and chat with them asking them to talk to the other player.

3) If they keep going, send them home. Or leave yourself. I've left tables that have been inappropriate and rude even after asking. From then on, I don't play with those specific people anymore.

As for all the rest, well that's opinions and fluff. The point is that we need to keep this classy bros and broettes. Let's keep it at that.

That. Exactly.

Dark Archive

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Well, I will tell you one thing. I have not been present for it, personally (since I am noooooowhere near that state), but a friend of mine has actually been the subject of discrimination by a group of feminists at his game store down in Florida. I suppose I should say it WAS his favored game store, as he has since stopped playing PFS all together as a result of the treatment he received there. It was te only applicable game store for quite a distance around his location. Apparently, several people in that area have.

Thus far it's looking like people are working off the assumption sexism can only flow in one direction, so I thought I'd toss out that tidbit of information. There are plenty of men that are forced to endure humiliation after humiliation just for the sake of avoiding the debacle they'd start if they told a bunch of enraged women to shove off.


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The Beard wrote:

Well, I will tell you one thing. I have not been present for it, personally (since I am noooooowhere near that state), but a friend of mine has actually been the subject of discrimination by a group of feminists at his game store down in Florida. I suppose I should say it WAS his favored game store, as he has since stopped playing PFS all together as a result of the treatment he received there. It was te only applicable game store for quite a distance around his location. Apparently, several people in that area have.

Thus far it's looking like people are working off the assumption sexism can only flow in one direction, so I thought I'd toss out that tidbit of information. There are plenty of men that are forced to endure humiliation after humiliation just for the sake of avoiding the debacle they'd start if they told a bunch of enraged women to shove off.

I'm probably going to regret this, but at least without more details I don't really believe it. I really don't want to get into victim blaming, but what does "subject of discrimination by a group of feminists" even mean?

Were they all women driving men out of the game store? Possible, I suppose, but I've rarely seen or heard of a public gaming group that came anywhere near majority women. Home games, sure, but not in a game store setting.

If it's feminist men, then they can't be discriminating against all the men, so what triggers the discrimination against him?

Not saying your friend is like this, but I'll bet Chuck, if confronted and told to stop his comments he'd describe it pretty close to "forced to endure humiliation after humiliation just for the sake of avoiding the debacle they'd start if they told a bunch of enraged women to shove off."

Silver Crusade

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The Beard wrote:

Well, I will tell you one thing. I have not been present for it, personally (since I am noooooowhere near that state), but a friend of mine has actually been the subject of discrimination by a group of feminists at his game store down in Florida. I suppose I should say it WAS his favored game store, as he has since stopped playing PFS all together as a result of the treatment he received there. It was te only applicable game store for quite a distance around his location. Apparently, several people in that area have.

Thus far it's looking like people are working off the assumption sexism can only flow in one direction, so I thought I'd toss out that tidbit of information. There are plenty of men that are forced to endure humiliation after humiliation just for the sake of avoiding the debacle they'd start if they told a bunch of enraged women to shove off.

Pretty much what thejeff said. Your descriptions are super vague and seems loaded. I would like some details as to what actually happened.


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The last two responses would seem to prove The Beard's point even if his accounting is inaccurate. His post is no more vague than the OP, but was immediately met with skepticism and a flat out accusation of lying. The only difference in his scenario and the OP is which gender is on which side of the sexist behavior.

The OP met with none of this resistance, so the reaction toward The Beard's comments is, by definition, a sexist response. Which even if his account is entirely fictional serves to prove his point.


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thejeff wrote:
I'm probably going to regret this, but at least without more details I don't really believe it. I really don't want to get into victim blaming, but what does "subject of discrimination by a group of feminists" even mean?

But...dude... you just did, and that's part of the problem.

If a poster here purported to be a female who copped a load of odious behaviour then it would be accepted as 100% the way it went down (I called BS on one poster here, it was quite a ride) and yet if it is a guy saying something he is open (as he should be) to due scrutiny - however the comment of "I really don't want to get into victim blaming, but" is pretty typical.

Anyhow, if someone is being sexist at the table it is usually best to call it right then and there - "Yeah mate, give it a miss" tends to get the point across. Pulling people aside for a sit down chat is probably more confronting than just chipping them at the table, because when its a pull aside its a personalised conversation and doesn't really allow them a gracious out.

The Exchange

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BigDTBone wrote:

The last two responses would seem to prove The Beard's point even if his accounting is inaccurate. His post is no more vague than the OP, but was immediately met with skepticism and a flat out accusation of lying. The only difference in his scenario and the OP is which gender is on which side of the sexist behavior.

The OP met with none of this resistance, so the reaction toward The Beard's comments is, by definition, a sexist response. Which even if his account is entirely fictional serves to prove his point.

Funny how that works. We have an issue in the "sensitive people" about who is a "victim class" and who is the "aggressor", and one cannot be the other. So we cannot blame the victim, but a man cannot be the victim so blame him....

Grand Lodge Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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It doesn't matter if it is a man or a woman who is doing the bashing or the inappropriate behavior. It is childish irregardless of the sex of who initiates the behavior. How about grow up and play well with others? If you can't play well in public with others because you are sexist, please stay home. PFS doesn't want sexist, racist, or any other ist behavior. We are welcoming to all players, old and young, male and female. I can guarantee any poor behavior at a table I'm GMing or playing at will be corrected immediately, as it should at every table

This post has gone off topic from PFS. Please bring it back to a PFS focus or it will be moved to the general gaming forum where it seems more likely to belong.

Liberty's Edge

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Personally, if I find a player acting inappropriate at my PFS table, and it is visibly affecting (I'm pretty good at observing folks reactions to things) others, I will say something out loud about how inappropriate it is and that they should stop.

If it is so egregious that it makes me uncomfortable, I will also ask someone to stop right then and there.

If someone comes to me and tells me how uncomfortable someones actions are, whether I find them so or not, I will ask that person to stop, publicly, the next time they do so.

If they don't, I will then take them aside privately.

If they keep it up, I will publicly ask them to leave.


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BigDTBone wrote:

The last two responses would seem to prove The Beard's point even if his accounting is inaccurate. His post is no more vague than the OP, but was immediately met with skepticism and a flat out accusation of lying. The only difference in his scenario and the OP is which gender is on which side of the sexist behavior.

The OP met with none of this resistance, so the reaction toward The Beard's comments is, by definition, a sexist response. Which even if his account is entirely fictional serves to prove his point.

A couple of reasons I see it as different:

1) The OP was less vague. "Every third sentence out of Chuck's mouth is the kind of comment about women that makes you cringe."
Now, that may or may not be true, but at least it's concrete. I suppose the OP could have actually quoted some of the statements, but it's close enough for me.

Compare that to "has actually been the subject of discrimination by a group of feminists". What did they do? Who were these people? Why did they single him out? How did they discriminate against him? There's no context there at all. I've got no idea what actually happened.
Given more, I may well actually agree with him.

2) I've run into people like Chuck gaming. Not as common as they used to be and they tend to get shot down more frequently these days, but I've still seen it. And heard of it even more often.
I've never seen and only rarely heard of anything like the Beards story. And never in more than an unverifiable friend of a friend kind of way.

Related to that: One person being a jerk at a table is very plausible, pretty much however they're being a jerk. A group driving the main gaming demographic away from the only venue in the area is much less so.

Again, it's quite possible and with a bit more information, I might be more convinced. As it is, I'm suspicious.

Grand Lodge

Anyone else kind of find it amusing that a thread like this pops up and everyone is aghast that someone would say these things? I promise you, were it a female making disparaging comments against men it would be smiled upon, probably because most of the people white-knighting in this fashion are only praying the woman would look at them.

Grand Lodge Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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Quendishir wrote:
Anyone else kind of find it amusing that a thread like this pops up and everyone is aghast that someone would say these things? I promise you, were it a female making disparaging comments against men it would be smiled upon, probably because most of the people white-knighting in this fashion are only praying the woman would look at them.

If it was a woman making disparaging remarks against men, I certainly wouldn't be smiling on it and would be taking corrective action. I'm married to a woman and have a daughter. No, I don't care who looks at me. Again. It doesn't matter the sex of whom is making disparaging comments. I condemn the behavior regardless of sex. That person needs to grow up.

Silver Crusade

Quendishir wrote:
Anyone else kind of find it amusing that a thread like this pops up and everyone is aghast that someone would say these things? I promise you, were it a female making disparaging comments against men it would be smiled upon, probably because most of the people white-knighting in this fashion are only praying the woman would look at them.

Keep telling yourself that.


Quendishir wrote:
Anyone else kind of find it amusing that a thread like this pops up and everyone is aghast that someone would say these things? I promise you, were it a female making disparaging comments against men it would be smiled upon, probably because most of the people white-knighting in this fashion are only praying the woman would look at them.

I had that happen a few weeks ago actually. Woman at the table making some dirty jokes and messing with other PCs items, guy makes an identical joke and he gets the bloody stink-eye. Not playing with that group again I can tell you that much.

Word your looking for might be double standard. Not sure if everyone's out to desperate white knights, but double standards are done without thinking a lot of the time.

Shadow Lodge

|dvh| wrote:
Quendishir wrote:
Anyone else kind of find it amusing that a thread like this pops up and everyone is aghast that someone would say these things? I promise you, were it a female making disparaging comments against men it would be smiled upon, probably because most of the people white-knighting in this fashion are only praying the woman would look at them.
Keep telling yourself that.

Actually I've seen it a few times. (I don't want to say "all the time", but it's not too uncommon, either). It happens. I think people are just accustomed to calling men/boys dogs/pigs/asses, or other comments as less hurtful or mean when it comes from women, but it happens.


I don't think anyone would be smiling if anyone was making disparaging comments about anyone at one of our local tables - or even disparaging comments about groups who weren't at the table. I admit that we happy Aussies can have a bit of a rough sense of humour at times and have a cultural bias towards pushing the envelope, but we are also well tuned in (generally) for the cues from the crowd to rein it in.

I think there's a big difference though between someone making a bit of a joke in bad taste and someone flatly making a disparaging remark - one is an ill attempt at humour (and just needs a nudge) and the other is a flat out shot at someone (which needs to be checked just as flatly).

PFS is an 'open' format and relies on people bringing their 'out in public manners' in order for it to work. People can do and think what they like in their own private time, however during the game they need to remember to keep it civilised.

Besides, there are often kids around - family game here folks, lets keep it (at least a little) classy.

Scarab Sages

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I feel like my question has been answered (thanks for the sum up Lady Ophelia). Thanks folks!

Silver Crusade

DM Beckett wrote:
|dvh| wrote:
Quendishir wrote:
Anyone else kind of find it amusing that a thread like this pops up and everyone is aghast that someone would say these things? I promise you, were it a female making disparaging comments against men it would be smiled upon, probably because most of the people white-knighting in this fashion are only praying the woman would look at them.
Keep telling yourself that.
Actually I've seen it a few times. (I don't want to say "all the time", but it's not too uncommon, either). It happens. I think people are just accustomed to calling men/boys dogs/pigs/asses, or other comments as less hurtful or mean when it comes from women, but it happens.

I was replying more to the bit about white-knighting, but I wasn't clear and your comment is reasonable.


I misread the title and thought it said "sexiest at the table". I was all ready to post a tasty pic of me in my Taldor shirt, now imagine my disappointment.

Play nice.

Grand Lodge

Crystal Frasier wrote:
I think the female Trox in Bestiary 4 is a prime example of that.

I'm missing something... the artwork for the Trox (p 264, B4) is female? Or is there another artwork for the Trox elsewhere that I missed? If not, how would anyone know the Trox is female, as the text does not describe any gender differences?


Maximilian Summokar wrote:
Crystal Frasier wrote:
I think the female Trox in Bestiary 4 is a prime example of that.
I'm missing something... the artwork for the Trox (p 264, B4) is female? Or is there another artwork for the Trox elsewhere that I missed? If not, how would anyone know the Trox is female, as the text does not describe any gender differences?

Takes bestiary out of Max's hands

Turns bestiary 180 degrees.

Hands it back

Dark Archive

|dvh| wrote:
Pretty much what thejeff said. Your descriptions are super vague and seems loaded. I would like some details as to what actually happened.

The best answer I can give you is that he is a gentleman. Always opens the car door for is wife, pulls out chairs for her, etc. Either he has withheld certain details, or a handful of women at this game store took offense for some unfathomable reason. He, his wife, and their friends all quit going to that game store (and playing PFS at all) after it went on for a while. I have known him for many, many years. Never once have I heard him say or do anything negative towards anyone at all, let alone a female, that had not been warranted by their own actions. He just doesn't have it in him to act out. In any case, this all happened quite some time ago. I just thought sharing it might be pertinent to the thread.

Now, what they actually did to him was uh... rather poorly veiled, assuming they tried to so so at all. It included such things as refusing to give his characters healing, refusing to cooperate even in the event of having the same faction mission, intentionally leaving his characters to die when it would have been very easy to prevent on more than one occasion, going out of their way to make sure he would not get to play at tables he particularly wanted to play at, making poorly veiled snide remarks at every possible opportunity, petty insults pertaining to his gender, calling into question the treatment of is wife, etc. I wasn't there for these things, but I'd be willing to bet a loooooot of money he did nothing to deserve it. At first, I figured maybe part of it was just the offending parties' characters behaving in a certain way. However, I then learned that it didn't matter who was on what character. This cycle just kept repeating, and always from the same group of people. Same for the snide remarks from player to player.

This is an extreme example, I know, but his misfortune does help to illustrate that these things do go on in some game stores, at some PFS tables, etc. Sexism is far more common than it actually should be. As far as I'm concerned on the matter, people engaging in openly sexist activities, regardless of their own sex, should be called out on it (politely, preferably) at the table. Sure, it may slow the game down a little, but that's not the sort of thing that needs to be left alone. It can and will lead to a loss of enjoyment for those bearing the brunt of it. This is one such instance where nothing was done, and it caused more than one person to just walk away from the game, presumably for good. As long as it has been now, I doubt if they ever resume playing. Their group took up MMOs instead.

Grand Lodge

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But if they were doing this to him *and* his wife, how was this sexist behavior? And for the matter, what about any of this makes them feminists? (A feminist is someone who is looking for equality for women. A woman who seeks to exclude and put down men is not a feminist, she is a sexist woman.)


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The bottom line is respect. Respect for yourself and respect for your fellow tablemates. If you can't play with respect then you shouldn't play the game

Dark Archive

+1 to what Thea said with the addendum for instances where players don't have the social know-how to recognize they are being disrespectful, then it's the GM's job to arbitrate it and nip that in the bud.

Shadow Lodge

FLite wrote:
But if they were doing this to him *and* his wife, how was this sexist behavior? And for the matter, what about any of this makes them feminists? (A feminist is someone who is looking for equality for women. A woman who seeks to exclude and put down men is not a feminist, she is a sexist woman.)

From what was written, it sounds like both of them were driven away, but that the focus was against him only, for whatever reason. If it was assumed to be a bunch of guys commenting about or acting against gals, would it be sexist?

Liberty's Edge

Not a single response with "Chuck him out" or "tell him to Chuck off"? I am so disappointed in you people.

That kind of crap does not fly with me. I do not like confrontation but some things need to be confronted. Tell him to cut that crap out or get the hell out.

Project Manager

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FLite wrote:
But if they were doing this to him *and* his wife, how was this sexist behavior? And for the matter, what about any of this makes them feminists? (A feminist is someone who is looking for equality for women. A woman who seeks to exclude and put down men is not a feminist, she is a sexist woman.)

Yeah, I'm very unclear as to what identifies these women as "feminists," rather than "people behaving inappropriately." As noted, a feminist is someone who is working toward equality for women. Using gender-based insults directed toward men is unrelated to whether you are a feminist. It does, of course, relate to whether you are sexist.

Shadow Lodge

At the risk of being off topic, and not being there or Beard, Well, extrapolating from what was written that they took issue with him opening doors for his wife, pulls out chairs, and things of that nature. Being that the wife also felt unwelcome, I think it's safe to assume that she was not against being treated well. At least initially, that's what seems to have started it. Without getting into the True Scotsman deal that at least implies prevalent generic feminists, even if not all believe that.


Jessica Price wrote:
FLite wrote:
But if they were doing this to him *and* his wife, how was this sexist behavior? And for the matter, what about any of this makes them feminists? (A feminist is someone who is looking for equality for women. A woman who seeks to exclude and put down men is not a feminist, she is a sexist woman.)
Yeah, I'm very unclear as to what identifies these women as "feminists," rather than "people behaving inappropriately." As noted, a feminist is someone who is working toward equality for women. Using gender-based insults directed toward men is unrelated to whether you are a feminist. It does, of course, relate to whether you are sexist.

I think the theory is that they were offended by his gentlemanly behavior and went after him for it.

It's possible. I've seen women offended by the opening doors/pulling out chairs thing. Never to that extent though. It's possible they were over-sensitive and really were being prejudiced jerks.

I've also seen guys use that kind of "chivalry" to be patronizing and condescending. Some of them apparently with the best of intentions thinking they were just helping the poor helpless womenfolk.

At third hand here, I don't see anyway to tell what was really going on.


DM Beckett wrote:
At the risk of being off topic, and not being there or Beard, Well, extrapolating from what was written that they took issue with him opening doors for his wife, pulls out chairs, and things of that nature. Being that the wife also felt unwelcome, I think it's safe to assume that she was not against being treated well. At least initially, that's what seems to have started it. Without getting into the True Scotsman deal that at least implies prevalent generic feminists, even if not all believe that.

Not necessarily...I have female friends who would be pretty uncomfortable if a man regularly did those sort of things for them, and they weren't at least dating. I think some women pick up on those things as being less about chivalry, and more about getting hit on.

IF he was perceived as giving off that vibe, and people knew he was already married, then that might be the source of conflict.

Can't really think of anything more to add to the original discussion. If there are women gamers nearby or part of the group, then definitely a "knock off" comment is needed. If that is not an immediate issue, I would be inclined to wait until the game was over to say anything, if I was worried about it escalating to a fracas.

Project Manager

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Challenging the canard that feminism = hating men is hardly engaging in the True Scotsman fallacy. And -- while I firmly believe that as along as everything that's going on in a relationship is consensual, which includes being treated in ways that highlight one's gender, it's their business and their business alone -- automatically categorizing being treated in a highly gendered way as being "treated well" is a highly biased way to describe it, basically framing anyone who objects to it as irrational.

And it's impressive how people managed to pull this off-topic to a discussion about "but it happens to men too!" and effectively drown out the original conversation, exactly as I pointed out earlier in the thread. Congrats on being Exhibit A for what happens every time we try to talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming to people who aren't straight white men.

Shadow Lodge

MMCJawa wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
At the risk of being off topic, and not being there or Beard, Well, extrapolating from what was written that they took issue with him opening doors for his wife, pulls out chairs, and things of that nature. Being that the wife also felt unwelcome, I think it's safe to assume that she was not against being treated well. At least initially, that's what seems to have started it. Without getting into the True Scotsman deal that at least implies prevalent generic feminists, even if not all believe that.

Not necessarily...I have female friends who would be pretty uncomfortable if a man regularly did those sort of things for them, and they weren't at least dating. I think some women pick up on those things as being less about chivalry, and more about getting hit on.

IF he was perceived as giving off that vibe, and people knew he was already married, then that might be the source of conflict.

Can't really think of anything more to add to the original discussion. If there are women gamers nearby or part of the group, then definitely a "knock off" comment is needed. If that is not an immediate issue, I would be inclined to wait until the game was over to say anything, if I was worried about it escalating to a fracas.

Again, going off of what was written only, and not being there, there is no indication that the husband did anything to any but his wife, and that the wife as adverse to it. All we can tell is that (it seems) like the third party alone had an issue with it and took it open themselves to drive both of them (and others) away.


Sexism, racism, classism, beliefism, and all the host of other ways we discriminate one another, they are all forms of abuse that usually stem from either a lack of respect, or a 'wealth' of ignorance.
If someone is being discriminatory, then we should help them stop and become a better person. While banning someone does 'deal' with the problem, helping to make that person a better individual is a true and clear victory. But people being as diverse as we are, we all react to different things different ways, so there is no one 'best' approach, if there was then we wouldn't be having this issue.
Now some will say that it isn't our responsibility to help fix someone else's problems, and I think that's the true dragon on the mount. Because if we don't, then who will?


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Jessica Price wrote:
And it's impressive how people managed to pull this off-topic to a discussion about "but it happens to men too!" and effectively drown out the original conversation, exactly as I pointed out earlier in the thread. Congrats on being Exhibit A for what happens every time we try to talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming to people who aren't straight white men.

To be fair, that's sort of what happens any time you talk about anything around here. Its not so much a stream consciousness as a 32 car pileup of consciousness.

Scarab Sages

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Jessica Price wrote:

Challenging the canard that feminism = hating men is hardly engaging in the True Scotsman fallacy. And -- while I firmly believe that as along as everything that's going on in a relationship is consensual, which includes being treated in ways that highlight one's gender, it's their business and their business alone -- automatically categorizing being treated in a highly gendered way as being "treated well" is a highly biased way to describe it, basically framing anyone who objects to it as irrational.

And it's impressive how people managed to pull this off-topic to a discussion about "but it happens to men too!" and effectively drown out the original conversation, exactly as I pointed out earlier in the thread. Congrats on being Exhibit A for what happens every time we try to talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming to people who aren't straight white men.

I thought the topic was sexist at the table not Male sexist at the table. I believe their off-topic as you put it discusiion about alleged female gamers harassing a male would be very topic to the original post. Not once was someone's sexuality or race brought into the topic... well until you did.


TheNine wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:

Challenging the canard that feminism = hating men is hardly engaging in the True Scotsman fallacy. And -- while I firmly believe that as along as everything that's going on in a relationship is consensual, which includes being treated in ways that highlight one's gender, it's their business and their business alone -- automatically categorizing being treated in a highly gendered way as being "treated well" is a highly biased way to describe it, basically framing anyone who objects to it as irrational.

And it's impressive how people managed to pull this off-topic to a discussion about "but it happens to men too!" and effectively drown out the original conversation, exactly as I pointed out earlier in the thread. Congrats on being Exhibit A for what happens every time we try to talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming to people who aren't straight white men.

I thought the topic was sexist at the table not Male sexist at the table. I believe their off-topic as you put it discusiion about alleged female gamers harassing a male would be very topic to the original post. Not once was someone's sexuality or race brought into the topic... well until you did.

Well the title is "Sexist at the table", but the OP is about a guy making crude comments about women. The title is "sexist", but the sexist in question was definitely male.

Scarab Sages

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thejeff wrote:
TheNine wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:

Challenging the canard that feminism = hating men is hardly engaging in the True Scotsman fallacy. And -- while I firmly believe that as along as everything that's going on in a relationship is consensual, which includes being treated in ways that highlight one's gender, it's their business and their business alone -- automatically categorizing being treated in a highly gendered way as being "treated well" is a highly biased way to describe it, basically framing anyone who objects to it as irrational.

And it's impressive how people managed to pull this off-topic to a discussion about "but it happens to men too!" and effectively drown out the original conversation, exactly as I pointed out earlier in the thread. Congrats on being Exhibit A for what happens every time we try to talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming to people who aren't straight white men.

I thought the topic was sexist at the table not Male sexist at the table. I believe their off-topic as you put it discusiion about alleged female gamers harassing a male would be very topic to the original post. Not once was someone's sexuality or race brought into the topic... well until you did.
Well the title is "Sexist at the table", but the OP is about a guy making crude comments about women. The title is "sexist", but the sexist in question was definitely male.

Of the original posters post I am aware. I was merely bringing up that the other posters content by no means took away from the original post at all. If anything it was further addenendum to said conversation. I am merely trying to make the point that regardless of the race, creed, religion, sex, or hells even shoe size, discrimination and making people uncomfortable is not cool. I don't think the beard or whomever brought it up at all was going, cant have them talking about being discriminatory to females, I know Im going to get them off on a tangent so they forget about that post. Maybe I read too much into things, Maybe I don't. Just expressing my opinion is all


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thejeff wrote:
TheNine wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:

Challenging the canard that feminism = hating men is hardly engaging in the True Scotsman fallacy. And -- while I firmly believe that as along as everything that's going on in a relationship is consensual, which includes being treated in ways that highlight one's gender, it's their business and their business alone -- automatically categorizing being treated in a highly gendered way as being "treated well" is a highly biased way to describe it, basically framing anyone who objects to it as irrational.

And it's impressive how people managed to pull this off-topic to a discussion about "but it happens to men too!" and effectively drown out the original conversation, exactly as I pointed out earlier in the thread. Congrats on being Exhibit A for what happens every time we try to talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming to people who aren't straight white men.

I thought the topic was sexist at the table not Male sexist at the table. I believe their off-topic as you put it discusiion about alleged female gamers harassing a male would be very topic to the original post. Not once was someone's sexuality or race brought into the topic... well until you did.
Well the title is "Sexist at the table", but the OP is about a guy making crude comments about women. The title is "sexist", but the sexist in question was definitely male.

That doesn't mean we can't use this as a space to help stop sexism against men and against women. Everyone deserves respectful treatment


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I think the point, people, is to discuss ways of combating/preventing it rather than debating who is doing it to whom :)

Shadow Lodge

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I just want to point out that the True Scotsman comment was meant avoid going further off-topic into things like "well a real feminist doesn't hate men, only some/a few/most/a tiny amount/extremist/whatever believe that", and specifically intended to keep this from going off the topic of sexism and poor behavior at the PFS table, not encourage it to go down there even more.

We have already been warned to stay on topic, and we already have the official answer.

Michael Brock wrote:

It doesn't matter if it is a man or a woman who is doing the bashing or the inappropriate behavior. It is childish irregardless of the sex of who initiates the behavior. How about grow up and play well with others? If you can't play well in public with others because you are sexist, please stay home. PFS doesn't want sexist, racist, or any other ist behavior. We are welcoming to all players, old and young, male and female. I can guarantee any poor behavior at a table I'm GMing or playing at will be corrected immediately, as it should at every table

This post has gone off topic from PFS. Please bring it back to a PFS focus or it will be moved to the general gaming forum where it seems more likely to belong.


thejeff wrote:
TheNine wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:

Challenging the canard that feminism = hating men is hardly engaging in the True Scotsman fallacy. And -- while I firmly believe that as along as everything that's going on in a relationship is consensual, which includes being treated in ways that highlight one's gender, it's their business and their business alone -- automatically categorizing being treated in a highly gendered way as being "treated well" is a highly biased way to describe it, basically framing anyone who objects to it as irrational.

And it's impressive how people managed to pull this off-topic to a discussion about "but it happens to men too!" and effectively drown out the original conversation, exactly as I pointed out earlier in the thread. Congrats on being Exhibit A for what happens every time we try to talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming to people who aren't straight white men.

I thought the topic was sexist at the table not Male sexist at the table. I believe their off-topic as you put it discusiion about alleged female gamers harassing a male would be very topic to the original post. Not once was someone's sexuality or race brought into the topic... well until you did.
Well the title is "Sexist at the table", but the OP is about a guy making crude comments about women. The title is "sexist", but the sexist in question was definitely male.

Yes, and that topic was a specific question about a particular circumstance. That problem was also addressed and suggestions were given. Suggestions which included a direct response from Mike Brock. It would seem that the exact particular topic from the OP was laid to rest (unless someone wants to suggest that Mike Brock is not THE authority on PFS, in which case I think a separate thread on that topic is in order).

The topic then evolved rather organically into other examples of this behavior that have been noticed in the community. (Jessica Price didn't feel it necessary to go off on the 6th(!) post on the thread discussing a separate instance.) It wasn't until someone recounted an a situation where a male (and his wife) were the target of sexist behavior that accusations started flying around.

Then Jessica accused virtually everyone on the board of being rampant sexist, racist, homophobes. I guess the most important rule doesn't apply to staff members.

Shadow Lodge

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Another thread cruising to a lock I see.


TOZ wrote:
Another thread cruising to a lock I see.

No doubt.


Quendishir wrote:
Anyone else kind of find it amusing that a thread like this pops up and everyone is aghast that someone would say these things? I promise you, were it a female making disparaging comments against men it would be smiled upon, probably because most of the people white-knighting in this fashion are only praying the woman would look at them.

As a woman, I would be just as offended by another woman making such remarks about men as I would be about a man making such remarks about women. Neither is appropriate.

I was actually bothered at a gaming session in the group I am in where one of the party members had to be charmed by a fellow party member because he had failed a will save and was attacking a certain party member and it was the only way to get him to stop. Then some of my fellow players started making comments about what the charmer (a gay character played by a gay player) should do with the character who had been charmed.

It made me as uncomfortable as it would have if the character who had been charmed had been a female and charmer had been a straight male. Fortunately, the player of the charmer is an honorable person and did not follow through with what the other players were suggesting.

I did not speak up as I don't quite know how I should have addressed it, and our GM is also female and did not say anything as far as I know.

I also don't know if they were actually saying those things in character or if it was just a matter of the players teasing their friends in very bad taste.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

A group I 'coach' is made up of teenagers in nearby blocks and about a third female. Most are 'artsey' types (band, theater, choral, etc.) They decided to make up full body art for each of their characters, notebook sized, to serve as visual references for other players (These are placed in front of the player).

Last night, after their all day game (ah, the good old days!), the girl who is the most artistic dropped my 'Second Darkness' AP off and I got to see these 'cards' for the first time. All four female characters would easily grace the pages of Playboy! Only the human male Sorcerer/Bard would grade as better than 'meh', with the rest overly muscled escapees for bodybuilder mags (including the 7 Str Wizard!). I casually mentioned this only to find that 2 of the female characters were played by males and the actress in the group was playing the S/B. Granted, the oldest is 19 (?), but I thot it odd that her description of roles put every female character into a non-melee role. One of the guys specifically chose to be the Oracle to avoid melee! And party face was the budding actress (but then, she has more personality drive than the rest).

Even in a group that can transcend gender in their characters, there exists a heavy spicing of sexism.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
BigDTBone wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Another thread cruising to a lock I see.
No doubt.

Specific quotations about what you speak of usually help. I'm on my phone and scanning posts is inefficient.

Because I haven't found what you referred to by saying "Then Jessica accused virtually everyone on the board of being rampant sexist, racist, homophobes. I guess the most important rule doesn't apply to staff members."

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