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As a hypothetical, what happens when a scarred witch doctor decides to attempt immortality and become a lich? His casting stat no longer exists. Does he become an undead spell caster that can't cast spells? Do his hex DCs go to nothing? Does he divide by zero?
Huh, that's an interesting question. You could say he couldn't cast spells anymore. Another idea might be to substitute CHA out for it, as it substitutes for hit points, fort saves, and maybe a few other things.
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Yep. He becomes unable to cast.
Seems like a very Orc thing to do too. They're none too bright.
"Trog powerful casty man. Trog turn into Lich."
*Years of research and painful transformation later*
"That boost to my Intelligence and Wisdom lets me see how exactly how horrible this idea was! HINDSIIIIIGHT!!!!!!"
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RAW I think it would be as you describe - he would be a caster with no score in his casting stat. Assuming he didn't want to be useless the rest of his unlife he could retrain to a different archetype (or vanilla Witch with no archetype). The stress of undeath opened up his mind to horrifying new vistas of reality, so on and so forth, and changed the way he cast spells.
Note that if you're a barbarian you get pretty screwed by becoming undead as well, because undead are immune to morale effects.
UPDATE: Upon further review: Bestiary 1 p. 310 says "Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating . . . any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC)."
So I guess RAW you would in fact use Charisma for all relevant effects. The more you know!
Note that if you're a barbarian you get pretty screwed by becoming undead as well, because undead are immune to morale effects.
That didn't stop them from writing a pathfinder society scenario that includes a raging ghoul barbarian.
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Note that if you're a barbarian you get pretty screwed by becoming undead as well, because undead are immune to morale effects.That didn't stop them from writing a pathfinder society scenario that includes a raging ghoul barbarian.
I thought of this the moment I read his comment. Could you cite where undead can't receive morale bonuses?
I thought of this the moment I read his comment. Could you cite where undead can't receive morale bonuses?Note that if you're a barbarian you get pretty screwed by becoming undead as well, because undead are immune to morale effects.That didn't stop them from writing a pathfinder society scenario that includes a raging ghoul barbarian.
Soitenly. From PFSRD. Undead are immune to "all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
Note that I'm not an expert by any means, and I welcome corrections or second opinions on this matter. I guess there could be some exception that rules a "morale bonus" such as granted by barbarian rage is not a "morale effect", or whatever.
If you DO get your rage bonus as an undead barbarian, then it's a pretty sweet deal for them, because undead are also immune to exhaustion and fatigue.
EDIT: Which PFS scenario was it, just out of curiosity?
Sorry for derailing your thread OP. I hope you got your answer (plus some undead rules-related trivia to boot).
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To claim that a "morale bonus" is not a "morale effect" is the kind of errant pedantry up with which I shall not put.
You are alone in this.
There are dozens of examples of Ghoul and Plant Barbarians with Rage stat blocks.
So to claim that a Undead Barbarian can't use his Rage to gain a Morale bonus to a stat is "errant pedantry" at it's finest.
That immunity is for things like "run away from combat" type things.
No, Kazaan and Sarcasmancer are absolutely correct. The problem is that Pathfinder changed how rage functions. In 3.X it was an untyped bonus. Now it is a morale bonus. Which for most PCs is perfectly fine. However, there are some combinations where this poses a problem. This is not the first time this has come up. This is a problem that has occurred multiple times.
Is is a...mistake, no an oversight which there is no good resolution for. Undead and plant companions, etc should not be able to receive the benefits of rage. Yet writers who are not cognizant of the change in rage continue to write this in and perpetuate the problem.
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No, Kazaan and Sarcasmancer are absolutely correct
I've been in this debate before, I just don't agree with Kazaan, Sarasmancer, and you.
I also don't see a problem with the Moral bonus to STR being applied to someone immune to moral bonuses, as it isn't applied to the ghoul but to the ghoul's STR.
Anyway, this is something each individual GM will have to make a ruling. The whole developer side seems to contradict Kazaan (and etc) viewpoint.
No, Kazaan and Sarcasmancer are absolutely correctI've been in this debate before, I just don't agree with Kazaan, Sarasmancer, and you.
I also don't see a problem with the Moral bonus to STR being applied to someone immune to moral bonuses, as it isn't applied to the ghoul but to the ghoul's STR.
Anyway, this is something each individual GM will have to make a ruling. The whole developer side seems to contradict Kazaan (and etc) viewpoint.
The problem is the people who are writing these characters in aren't the core "developers", they're just writers. The RAW is pretty clear to me, but people just keep making this mistake over and over again.
Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Con for all abilities.
I'm not sure it's ever fully spelled out in the RAW, since that was written before there was ever an option to use Con as a casting stat, but here's SKR on the subject.
The only thing that's spelled out is CHA is replaced for the purposes of HP. There is no blanket statement that other CON based things switch to CHA.
No reasonable GM would disallow them from doing there thing, but it'd all be CHA based.
If it were Cha based, they wouldn't be able to cast anyway. The average Int, Wis, and Cha for an Orc is 8. With the +2 from being a Lich, that puts them at a whopping...10. No casty there.
@The argument that shouldn't be: Constructs are immune to morale effects too.
Guess what one of the things they can't do is? Hint, it starts with R and is the main class feature of the Barbarian.
The only thing that's spelled out is CHA is replaced for the purposes of HP. There is no blanket statement that other CON based things switch to CHA.
Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).
Whether spellcasting falls under that is your call. It isn't entirely clear, but it does give you an opening to utilize pretty easily.
Ah. Yeah, it's fudgable.
the people who are writing these characters in aren't the core "developers", they're just writers.Except for when they are the Core developers?
B2 has Soulbound Doll which are Constructs with Rage.
Except Souldbound Doll specifically is stated to have:
Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex) The weakened conviction of a soulbound doll's soul makes it susceptible to mind-affecting effects, despite the fact that it is a construct.
Which includes morale effects.
I thought of this the moment I read his comment. Could you cite where undead can't receive morale bonuses?Note that if you're a barbarian you get pretty screwed by becoming undead as well, because undead are immune to morale effects.That didn't stop them from writing a pathfinder society scenario that includes a raging ghoul barbarian.Soitenly. From PFSRD. Undead are immune to "all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms)."
Note that I'm not an expert by any means, and I welcome corrections or second opinions on this matter. I guess there could be some exception that rules a "morale bonus" such as granted by barbarian rage is not a "morale effect", or whatever.
If you DO get your rage bonus as an undead barbarian, then it's a pretty sweet deal for them, because undead are also immune to exhaustion and fatigue.
EDIT: Which PFS scenario was it, just out of curiosity?
So I just looked at that scenario and the only Ghoul I see is
the people who are writing these characters in aren't the core "developers", they're just writers.Except for when they are the Core developers?
B2 has Soulbound Doll which are Constructs with Rage.
Except Souldbound Doll specifically is stated to have:
Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex) The weakened conviction of a soulbound doll's soul makes it susceptible to mind-affecting effects, despite the fact that it is a construct.Which includes morale effects.
And even if they didn't have that ability, the soulbound doll's rage is the spell, not the ability, and only if they are CN.
So I just looked at that scenario and the only Ghoul I see is ** spoiler omitted **
My mistake it was actually the next part of that series.
Whether spellcasting falls under that is your call. It isn't entirely clear, but it does give you an opening to utilize pretty easily.
So, I guess this could be a convoluted way to get a witch with a CHA casting stat for theorycrafting (not that I can think of anything that could use it really well).
I guess any witch doctor would either be awesome, then suck as a lich, or suck as a witch doctor, and be awesome as a lich (with a dumped CON and a high CHA). It might make for an interesting for an NPC, but I don't see the struggle through the living levels being worth being a lich with crazy hp.
Yeah, I found it.
Definitely a mistake.
I guess any witch doctor would either be awesome, then suck as a lich, or suck as a witch doctor, and be awesome as a lich (with a dumped CON and a high CHA). It might make for an interesting for an NPC, but I don't see the struggle through the living levels being worth being a lich with crazy hp.
Whatever the case, you'd be making "the lichwitch", which would immediately turn your badass undead orcish oracle into a Skeletor-level comedic villain.
Your players would latch onto that and spend more time making fun of the Big Bad than actually fighting it.
And even if they didn't have that ability, the soulbound doll's rage is the spell, not the ability, and only if they are CN.the people who are writing these characters in aren't the core "developers", they're just writers.Except for when they are the Core developers?
B2 has Soulbound Doll which are Constructs with Rage.
Except Souldbound Doll specifically is stated to have:
Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex) The weakened conviction of a soulbound doll's soul makes it susceptible to mind-affecting effects, despite the fact that it is a construct.Which includes morale effects.
Why does it matter if it is the Rage spell instead of the Barbarian's rage? They both grant morale bonuses.
Why does it matter if it is the Rage spell instead of the Barbarian's rage? They both grant morale bonuses.And even if they didn't have that ability, the soulbound doll's rage is the spell, not the ability, and only if they are CN.the people who are writing these characters in aren't the core "developers", they're just writers.Except for when they are the Core developers?
B2 has Soulbound Doll which are Constructs with Rage.
Except Souldbound Doll specifically is stated to have:
Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex) The weakened conviction of a soulbound doll's soul makes it susceptible to mind-affecting effects, despite the fact that it is a construct.Which includes morale effects.
It matters because the rage spell may target people other than the caster (in fact 1 creature per 3 levels), so it wouldn't be out of place as a spell-like ability for a construct.
It matters because the rage spell may target people other than the caster (in fact 1 creature per 3 levels), so it wouldn't be out of place as a spell-like ability for a construct.Why does it matter if it is the Rage spell instead of the Barbarian's rage? They both grant morale bonuses.And even if they didn't have that ability, the soulbound doll's rage is the spell, not the ability, and only if they are CN.the people who are writing these characters in aren't the core "developers", they're just writers.Except for when they are the Core developers?
B2 has Soulbound Doll which are Constructs with Rage.
Except Souldbound Doll specifically is stated to have:
Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex) The weakened conviction of a soulbound doll's soul makes it susceptible to mind-affecting effects, despite the fact that it is a construct.Which includes morale effects.
The only thing allowing it is the Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Affects. The rage spell still grants a morale bonus. A bonus that constructs normally receive no benefit from.
The only thing allowing it is the Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Affects. The rage spell still grants a morale bonus. A bonus that constructs normally receive no benefit from.It matters because the rage spell may target people other than the caster (in fact 1 creature per 3 levels), so it wouldn't be out of place as a spell-like ability for a construct.Why does it matter if it is the Rage spell instead of the Barbarian's rage? They both grant morale bonuses.And even if they didn't have that ability, the soulbound doll's rage is the spell, not the ability, and only if they are CN.the people who are writing these characters in aren't the core "developers", they're just writers.Except for when they are the Core developers?
B2 has Soulbound Doll which are Constructs with Rage.
Except Souldbound Doll specifically is stated to have:
Susceptible to Mind-Affecting Effects (Ex) The weakened conviction of a soulbound doll's soul makes it susceptible to mind-affecting effects, despite the fact that it is a construct.Which includes morale effects.
And I'm telling you the soulbound doll doesn't need to cast it on itself, more likely it casts it on other people.