A reach build might be nice too. It helps to ease defenses a bit, and gives you a role besides smacking fools around (by smacking fools some more whenever they try to ignore you to eat the full arcane casters or the archer). Combat reflexes is a nice feat to spend your racial bonus feat on in that case. Longspears aren't...bad as weapons either.
Since you mentioned defense, one of my favorite tricks was always to take the armor expert trait. Taking one point off your armor check penalty might not seem like much, but ACP is the same score you would take as penalty on attack rolls if you are wearing an armor you are not proficient in. So if you reduce ACP to 0, then the penalty is 0. So armor expert actually works like (mithraled) medium armor proficiency. The fact that mithral medium armor works like light in everything other than proficiency also means that you can still use spells.
Sadly, the armor expert thing would mean that you might find trouble using shields, since that still stacks on the whole "ACP to attack rolls" thing. Not a problem with masterwork light shields and bucklers, since they have an ACP of 0, but the quickdraw ones would be troublesome.
Not sure if any of these ideas help, but meh, I like throwing things to see if they stick for anyone reading.
upon reflection the half-elf would open up a new weapon of my choice while, I THINK, allowing me to have more rounds of archeologists luck.
Aasimar speed up Archeologist's Luck advancement. It really is the way to go.
For extra rounds, Lingering performance essentially triples your rnd/day. If youhave the swifts to use every 3rd round. Extra performance adds 6 rnds too.
Aasimar w/ Fate's Favored
Lvl 1-3: +2
Lvl 4-7: +3
LvL 8-11: +4
Lvl 12+: +5
Angelkin gets you +2 Str/Cha and is perfect for this.
Oh, and Longspear is a decent option if you wanna go reach.
So, without any magic items, spells, or other feats. 18 starting str using a regular ol longspear...
At lvl 1: +6 attack 1d8+8
At lvl 4: +10 attack 1d8+9
At lvl 8: +15/10 attack 1d8+11
At lvl 12: +19/14 attack 1d8+12
It is a decent platform to build from, indeed.
I'm playing an Archaeologist/Gunslinger right now and just thought I'd point out a thing about his Luck & Arcane Strike vs action economy.
Both the Luck bonus and Arcane strike require a swift action to activate. Now, you can maintain as a free action, however to actually get a decent number of uses you'll probably be looking at using Lingering Performance (effectively triples your uses).
This means the first round you can activate your Luck, then second and third rounds you can stack on Arcane Strike, but the fourth round you'll need to lose Arcane Strike to activate your Luck again.
Something to keep in mind if you have combats lasting into the 4th or 8th round.
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All archaeologists must use whips and wear a fedora.
I think Jarlaxle was some combination of fighter and archaeologist bard.
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An 18 strength bard two handing a longsword with arcane strike is comparable to an 18 strength ranger two handing a longsword without arcane strike.
You really want that 18, though. It's an extra 1 attack 2 damage over 16.
Right. What's your hitpoints, fort save, armor class and AC at 8th? I say you'll have way fewer feats/rage powers/lay-on-hands and way fewer hitpoints or armor class than a real tank who needs at least one of those latter categories in *aces* to go toe-to-toe in melee with BBEGs at PFS upper tiers.
<shaking head>
Skill monkey classes forced into glass cannon Schwarzenegger concepts die like mice around Tier 7-8 in PFS when huge reach monsters with Improved Grab begin showing up. Either that, or the player wises up and relegates his character to the back ranks next to the wizard, but is under-optimized in that capacity as well since his build was totally geared for melee combat which it is now obviously inept at. I swear, I'd rather have an n-2 level dwarf straight-class CRB fighter with a tower shield and waraxe at the table than any of them; as I can trust the dwarf not to wilt in one round or one poison-save. Hell, a 5th level archer bard with Heroism up juicing a Hasted repeating crossbow would contribute more in combat than the washed-up, sad, pectoral model who can't hack it.
Moral of the story: if you want to play a barbarian, play a barbarian. Start with a 19 in your prime stat and be raging to a 26 at 5th level, making these melee pretenders look hopelessly foolish.
All archaeologists must use whips and wear a fedora.
He's also allowed to occasionally shoot people with a one-handed firearm :)
An 18 strength bard two handing a longsword with arcane strike is comparable to an 18 strength ranger two handing a longsword without arcane strike.
You really want that 18, though. It's an extra 1 attack 2 damage over 16.
Right. What's your hitpoints, fort save, armor class and AC at 8th? I say you'll have way fewer feats/rage powers/lay-on-hands and way fewer hitpoints or armor class than a real tank who needs at least one of those latter categories in *aces* to go toe-to-toe in melee with BBEGs at PFS upper tiers.
<shaking head>
Skill monkey classes forced into glass cannon Schwarzenegger concepts die like mice around Tier 7-8 in PFS when huge reach monsters with Improved Grab begin showing up. Either that, or the player wises up and relegates his character to the back ranks next to the wizard, but is under-optimized in that capacity as well since his build was totally geared for melee combat which it is now obviously inept at. I swear, I'd rather have an n-2 level dwarf straight-class CRB fighter with a tower shield and waraxe at the table than any of them; as I can trust the dwarf not to wilt in one round or one poison-save. Hell, a 5th level archer bard with Heroism up juicing a Hasted repeating crossbow would contribute more in combat than the washed-up, sad, pectoral model who can't hack it.
Moral of the story: if you want to play a barbarian, play a barbarian. Start with a 19 in your prime stat and be raging to a 26 at 5th level, making these melee pretenders look hopelessly foolish.
Archeologist's Luck applies to saves. His fort would be pretty solid.
I'd reply to the rest of your post, but you seem to be venting, so I'll just let it go.
no doubt. but I was just thinking of the advantages of having any weapon. greatsword is always nice and others are attractive in their own way. aasimar while taking advantage of the class better doesn't have those weapon choices.upon reflection the half-elf would open up a new weapon of my choice while, I THINK, allowing me to have more rounds of archeologists luck.Aasimar speed up Archeologist's Luck advancement. It really is the way to go.
For extra rounds, Lingering performance essentially triples your rnd/day. If youhave the swifts to use every 3rd round. Extra performance adds 6 rnds too.
Aasimar w/ Fate's Favored
Lvl 1-3: +2
Lvl 4-7: +3
LvL 8-11: +4
Lvl 12+: +5Angelkin gets you +2 Str/Cha and is perfect for this.
The average difference between a greatsword's damage and a longspear's damage is 2.5. That is noticeable, but, longspear is reach. Generally reach weapons 'cost' a die size in the way they are designed/balanced. So it is worth around what a 1d10 non-reach 2handed weapon would be valued at. Or 1.5 damage less than a greatsword.
That isn't insignificant. But consider the gain.
Fate's Favored any race (vs aasimar):
Lvl 1-5: +2 (4-5 would be +3)
Lvl 5-10: +3 (8-10 would be +4)
LvL 11-16: +4 (12+ would be +5)
Lvl 17+: +5 (same)
Roughly half the levels you would have an additional +1 attack, damage, saves, skills.
Now, to counter argue myself: Half Elf not only get a free weapon proficiency option, but they get a FCB option that really helps the Archeologist in an area he needs it, rounds per day. Because of his very limited pool, that doesn't expand with levels normally... it was inevitable that you'd have to spend feats to fuel it. Half Elf FCB actually saves you from having to do that if you want. So that is a pretty big +.
It may be overused but if you want damage for an archeologist bard consider going with the Dervish Dance feat. Not the archetype but just the feat. Go half elf for the weapon proficiency and extra rounds of luck and take weapon finesse and dervish dance for your 1st and 3rd level feats. Lingering performance at 5th will effectively triple your rounds of luck. Make sure you have a 13 STR so you can get power attack, and a high DEX and your damage will be fine.
Fates favored is what you want for a trait as it adds +1 to any luck bonus you have. Armor Expert is probably your best second trait.
A lot of people recommend Assamir to get a higher bonus, but to me the half elf is better because you can get dervish dance with one less feat, and you get more rounds of luck. As an archeologist bard you only need enough CHA to cast your spells so you will not have a lot of rounds of luck. Every extra round is worth it.
Make sure you pick up Heroism as your first 2 level spell. It is a morale bonus so it stacks with archeologist luck and last a long time.
It may be overused but if you want damage for an archeologist bard consider going with the Dervish Dance feat. Not the archetype but just the feat. Go half elf for the weapon proficiency and extra rounds of luck and take weapon finesse and dervish dance for your 1st and 3rd level feats. Lingering performance at 5th will effectively triple your rounds of luck. Make sure you have a 13 STR so you can get power attack, and a high DEX and your damage will be fine
I am always wary of dervish dance for doing damage. I mean, he wanted to go with the longsword because it was one of the best weapons a bard has that can be twohanded. The fact that the dervish dance does not allow two handing or typical TWF is one of its main flaws, and a major reason why one would want an agile rapier or something instead. Dervish Dance always seemed more a defensive option than anything since it encouraged high dex, and thus more AC and reflex saves (and the AC might be negated by the limitations on armor at some points, and especially so for a bard since they are the arcane spell casters that can use shields, a major defensive option if you are going to one hand anyway)
Using a weapon two handed only works well if you have a high STR which most bards do not. Using power attack with a low STR does not work especially for a low level bard. Since you will not have heavy armor you will need a good DEX for AC. This also allows you to be decent at archery even if you do not spend any feats. Having the same stat to hit for both melee and ranged as well as AC is a huge advantage.
As far as the long sword being better than a scimitar they are about the same. The long sword does on the average 1 more point of damage, but the scimitar has a better chance to get a critical hit. You can actually use a scimitar two handed, but not when using dervish dance. The increased chance for a critical becomes even more powerful after you get keen, or improved critical.
Still, how does it compare to an agile elven curved blade? It can be two handed, and it has the same critical threat range, as well as a nicer damage dice (although that is the least important part). I mean, if they are not playing an archetype which gives scimitars out, then they would have to take a proficiency feat anyway (usually through half elf, although a human with just a martial proficiency is certainly an option I suppose), then why not? Plus, it has the advantage of working at level 1, without any dips or delays of other feats.
I am not necessarily discounting a high dex build (and I understand that the scimitar is pretty much the best one handed weapon that is not some random exotic), but rather the complete restriction to a one handed style with nothing in the other hand. That is a hard style to pull off when you are going for DPR, and it usually ends up with the same build: taking crane style to make it seem worthwhile. While this is certainly a decent build... it just seems a bit overdone and somewhat feat intensive.
Personally (which I haven't seen anyone else mention this yet, I would go with a low str (13 or 14 for power attack) then dex, maybe take finesse asap and if you go half elf maybe the elven curve blade. The str might hurt a little in the beginning but with your luck bonuses your accuracy will go up to make up the loss. Pick up a ranged weapon too and when you can pick up some archery feats. Really it depends on what you are aiming to do, if it's just damage really you just want power attack and maybe cleave. But lingering and arcane strike can be used for ranged too. I admit I'm no pro, not sure how well it would work but it seems workable.
Maybe something like Str 13 Dex 18 Con 12 int 10 wis 10 and cha 14
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Archeologist's Luck applies to saves. His fort would be pretty solid.No; it'll be a bit better than a regular bard's; it'll be nowhere close to a barbarian, a paladin, or a dwarf fighter.
I'd reply to the rest of your post, but you seem to be venting, so I'll just let it go.
Venting: the sixth player shows up to our PFS table, pushing it to a higher tier. He pulls out his light-infantry guy. Then we fight the mantidrake at tier7-8 on a ledge: it breathes twice, then lands and starts laying waste with multi-attack. Light-inf is unconscious before he lands more than one smack. He ends up being useless in combat pretty much the whole scenario, as well as several other mods. He was built to dish it out in a full-attack, but not to take rebound. Any encounter with a "softener" his hitpoint load just couldn't handle.
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Don't blame a player for wanting to play something fun when he eats a full attack action.
Fun is tempered by reality. I.e., you can't face the BBEG in a clown-nose with a squeak-ball while wearing no pants. (Well, maybe you could if you were a gnome...but I digress.)
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PFS human bard not skeerd of melee who won't get his head ripped off (too often):
STR:14
DEX:15 or +17 (raise 4th)
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:07
CHA+16 or 14
01 feats: Improved Initiative, Flagbearer
...
05 Combat Expertise (simultaneously purchase INT+2 headband)
mid-level equipment: +1/light fortification light shield, +1/light fortification mithral breastplate, +1/Keen cold-iron rapier, MW whip, various splash weapons
Tactics: Carry the flag in the hand of the arm you've equipped your light shield with -- because you can totally do that! You other hand is free for one-handed weapon use (get weapon cords for it, since you'll frequently need to pull other items).
-- This character deals less damage offensively than the 2hPA, but his ability to avoid punishment is considerably superior.
Hate to say it Thug, but you do seem to be venting. The build you recommend is pretty useless, it suffers from the healer syndrome. If he brings this specialized "tank" character as the 6th man, in your example he "might" survive the first round, but his damage would be so pitiful that he would barely be contributing to the damage, meanwhile the monster is attacking all the other "squishies" instead of attacking him. Also with his luck ability in play (and with fortune's favored) he would get a +2 to hit, damage and saves at level 1..thats +2 fort which is on par with a level 1 fighter, ranger and paladin. I agree though a shield when you know there is some pain coming your way is always a good option though. Also just realize that even as a bard when he comes to the table he could be the back up healer (or in PFS maybe the only healer) not to mention a ton of skills to help the party.
One of the big advantages of the DEX based builds over the STR based builds is you are actually good at more things. If all you care about is damage a STR based build is going to do a lot more damage in melee combat. Getting 1.5 times your STR and power attack bonus is going to really increase the damage. If you use a high critical range weapon like the elven curve blade you can get some really impressive damage. As an archeologist bard you have a lot of ways to increase your chance to hit so that makes it even sweeter. You may even end up with a better chance to hit than a fighter.
The down side is that you will not be all that good in other things. A DEX based build using dervish dance or an agile weapon will be a lot better at ranged combat than the STR based build. With dervish dance you cannot carry a weapon or shield in the other hand but it does not say you cannot have anything else in the other hand. I don’t see why you could not have a wand in your off hand to use when you are not using your scimitar. As a bard you have proficiency in short bows and should have one as a backup weapon even if you are not going to go for an archer bard.
When it comes to skills the only class skill you have that is STR based is climb. Acrobatics, escape artist, sleight of hand, and stealth are all DEX based. DEX also improves your defenses a lot more than STR does. It gives you not only AC, but touch AC which is hard to come by. It also improves your reflex saves which STR does nothing for.
Don’t waste your rogue talents on getting feats. Use them for things that no other character can do. Trap spotter or fast stealth is a lot more valuable than a +1 to hit.
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Hate to say it Thug, but you do seem to be venting. The build you recommend is pretty useless, it suffers from the healer syndrome. If he brings this specialized "tank" character as the 6th man, in your example he "might" survive the first round, but his damage would be so pitiful that he would barely be contributing to the damage, meanwhile the monster is attacking all the other "squishies" instead of attacking him.
Excuse me, but... Have you ever played higher-level PFS?
-- This class is supposed to be a support character. OK, now then: you've traded away a CRB bard's ability to BUFF THE ENTIRE FREAKING PARTY. (That's one strike against you, and a major one, in that capacity.) In exchange, you get some rogue capacity...which your advice to go 2hPA-mode pretty much ignores. Then, if you're jumping into combat, you're not casting your spells to buff/debuff/assist. Basically, you're taking a non-tank class and trying to pretend you're a tank. In PFS.
You'll get shredded.
To Also with his luck ability in play (and with fortune's favored) he would get a +2 to hit, damage and saves at level 1..thats +2 fort which is on par with a level 1 fighter, ranger and paladin.
Which doesn't do jack for your cruddy armor class and no hitpoints. You need a LOT in one of those categories to front-line in the upper tiers.
Dabblers move to the back, or they croak.
Anecdote: one of our local PFS GMs's new personal character was a CRB dwarf fighter with a CON of 18 and a tower shield. Some people would tease him for the seemingly suboptimal nature of his heavily defense-oriented PC.
"Just wait; you'll see!" was all he would say.
He knew what was coming in the upper tiers because he could see the stat blocks in the modules.
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One of the big advantages of the DEX based builds over the STR based builds is you are actually good at more things.Absolutely, especially for the TWF/Acrobatics builds who end up in Celestial armor and can stay in the hunt, AC-wise.
If all you care about is damage a STR based build is going to do a lot more damage in melee combat. Getting 1.5 times your STR and power attack bonus is going to really increase the damage. If you use a high critical range weapon like the elven curve blade you can get some really impressive damage. As an archeologist bard you have a lot of ways to increase your chance to hit so that makes it even sweeter. You may even end up with a better chance to hit than a fighter.Not likely. That fighter will be wearing Gloves of Dueling and be looking at +4/+5 att/dmg in his primary weapon before any other considerations by 7th level.
The down side is that you will not be all that good in other things. A DEX based build using dervish dance or an agile weapon will be a lot better at ranged combat than the STR based build. With dervish dance you cannot carry a weapon or shield in the other hand but it does not say you cannot have anything else in the other hand. I don’t see why you could not have a wand in your off hand to use when you are not using your scimitar. As a bard you have proficiency in short bows and should have one as a backup weapon even if you are not going to go for an archer bard.
When it comes to skills the only class skill you have that is STR based is climb. Acrobatics, escape artist, sleight of hand, and stealth are all DEX based. DEX also improves your defenses a lot more than STR does. It gives you not only AC, but touch AC which is hard to come by. It also improves your reflex saves which STR does nothing for.
Don’t waste your rogue talents on getting feats. Use them for things that no other character can do. Trap spotter or fast stealth is a lot more valuable than a +1 to hit.
Given that the archeologist is basically a bard who has given up his ability to buff the whole table in exchange for some rogue tricks, I would absolutely say that the least he should be able to do is reliably find and disable magical traps.
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-- This class is supposed to be a support character. OK, now then: you've traded away a CRB bard's ability to BUFF THE ENTIRE FREAKING PARTY. (That's one strike against you, and a major one, in that capacity.) In exchange, you get some rogue capacity...which your advice to go 2hPA-mode pretty much ignores. Then, if you're jumping into combat, you're not casting your spells to buff/debuff/assist. Basically, you're taking a non-tank class and trying to pretend you're a tank. In PFS.
First of all an archeologist bard is not really a bard, he is a rogue that works. The name of the class is not important it is what he does that counts. The whole point of any archetype is to fundamentally change the class. Instead of being pissed because the character is not doing what you think a bard should do look at what he can do. All you seem to care about is combat and that is only half of what an archeologist bard brings to the table.
He will have the highest perception roll in the game because he gets half his level as a straight bonus to the skill. The rogue only gets this for spotting traps. He gets Bardic Knowledge so a single point in a knowledge skill gets him a decent roll, and lore master means he can take 20 on a knowledge skill. Archeologist luck also affects skills as do heroism. This means at 10th level he can get at least +5 in every skill in the game even those he is not trained in and can make any skill roll untrained.
Rogue talents means he can get trap spotter at 4th level. Pick up fast stealth as your second rogue talent and you have a scout no one can match. Spells like invisibility and expeditious retreat allow him scout out the area at a full 60’ movement while having a stealth roll no one is going to make.
In combat his spells also make a huge difference. With a DEX based build his AC is not going to be that far behind the fighter, and then he casts displacement for a 50% miss chance. Suddenly it is the fighter who is taking the hits not the bard. He also has much higher touch AC because a lot of his AC comes from DEX. He has Uncanny Dodge so keeps his AC high even when flat footed. He has the best reflex saves in the game and evasion so can totally avoid a lot of damage the fighter is going to have to soak up. With Fate’s Favored and Heroism running his fortitude save is +8 without any other items or spells and that is his lowest save.
You seem to be missing the whole point of playing an archeologist bard. My question to you is would you rather have a rogue or an archeologist bard in the party. If all you wants is to fight than by all means play a fighter, but a party of all fighters is going run into things they cannot deal with. This is where other classes come in.
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Comparing the Archeologist Bard and an Inquisitor is tough because they both have a lot of things going for them. I think that they both come out pretty even on almost everything. It really comes down to how they are built and what you value.
1.Luck vs. Judgments: Luck applies to more things than judgments. But Judgments give you more options so no clear winner
2.Spells: Both have good spell lists with the bard having a broader selection. The Inquisitor on the other hand has a lot of combat focused spells that stack with not only each other but with judgments to make up for it. The inquisitor also has other magical abilities outside spells.
3.Weapons: Here the inquisitor can pull ahead because they have good ranged weapons and if the right deity is chosen a good melee weapon. The fact the bard can get a good weapon by playing a particular race is not a factor because the inquisitor can do the same thing.
4.Skills: Here the bard has archeologist bard has a slight lead because of bardic knowledge. It is not as large as it might seem because the inquisitor can take improved monster lore to catch up. True monster lore only applies to identifying weakness of monsters, but that is probably the most common use. The fact the inquisitor gets two stats one of which is his primary casting stat means that for identifying monsters he has an edge. Inquisitors also get 3 skills they add half their level to vs. two for the bard. If you play a half orc then the inquisitor can actually pull ahead because then he gets his full level to intimidate and to identify monsters. A catfolk bard can beat him because they get their full level to bardic knowledge.
Overall both classes are pretty good and deciding between the two is tough.
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First of all an archeologist bard is not really a bard, he is a rogue that works.
I'll take a halfling rogue versus a strength-focused human archeologist every time....
...but let's save it for a different thread and get back to why these classes die like mice attempting 2hPA roles in high-level meat-grinder PFS where frontliners better either have stupid high AC or a gargantuan mountain of hitpoints if they don't want to get splattered all over the stalagmites.
@sirthugsalot: I'm not sure what high level PFS play is as I've never even had a challenging fight in it to date but I hear ur words and they reflect many of my concerns.Note that year 1-2-3 scenerios are pretty cake-walky (althrough a scattered few are so badly written they qualify as "death-mods" if an inattentive GM doesn't reign them on-the-fly). They get harder year 4. Year 5? Bring your 'A'-game.
Ultimately if I want a great high save, high attack character I'd be so much better with a half Orc inquisitor with sacred tattoo, divine favor, protection domain. +3 to all saves constantly and gain two good weapons plus composite longbow and deity favored.
Looks good on paper. Inquisitor is a solid class (although it's one of those fiddly types where you need a good lock-down on what it's capacities are, or you'll underutilize it), and half-orcs have that ace-in-the-hole that never runs out of style.
As a bonus, one of the iconics is a half-orc inquisitor, so it's easy to follow it for leveling up ideas.
Archeologist's Luck applies to saves. His fort would be pretty solid.No; it'll be a bit better than a regular bard's; it'll be nowhere close to a barbarian, a paladin, or a dwarf fighter.
Yes. His fort save would be solid. I very rarely say something without any basis. I didn't say best, or superior, I said solid.
Aside from Ability bonuses n whatnot... the Archeologist’s Luck bonus and his base fort save added together is nearly identical to the good fort progression.
Ie.
First level: 2 vs 2
Fourth level: 4 vs 4
Eighth level: 6 vs 6
Twelfth level: 8 vs 8
They're pretty darn comparable...
/shrug
You sound like you've had some bad play experiences that you are still holding onto. If you're getting too emotionally attached, I'd recommend taking a step back for a bit and reassessing.
I'll take a halfling rogue versus a strength-focused human archeologist every time....I'll take anything versus a Rogue, every time.
He pretty much lost all credibility with that statement. I am beginning to wonder if he has some personal reason for hating the archeologist archetype. I have rarely seen this level of antagonism shown to any class even a rogue.
The purpose of this thread was not to figure out which class is superior, but rather to see if a particular concept was workable. He does have some valid points that a bard or any class other than a STR based martial class will not be as effective using a two handed power attack build. When people suggested alternatives to it, or ways to improve it all he sees is that it will not be doing the same damage as a barbarian.
I don't hate the Rogue.
I just don't like it, and there is always a better option.
I was talking about Sir Thug and the Archeologist.
If I were going to make an archaeologist that focused on 2H Power Attacking, I'd use a Longspear. You get the advantageous Power Attack ratio without having to be on the front line.
Combat Reflexes and Power Attack are the only two combat feats you really need. Your other feats can go to improving your bard abilities.