So I've been working on this bard/witch/rogue MCA called the Hexwalker. Basically, it focuses on buffing itself and debuffing enemies.
I don't have anything to say about the current MCAs being worked on.
@Chosen Apostle
I think Fox has some valid ideas/concerns, I think we should go with something like this for this CMA. It's obviously meant to have 2 deities, show that should be incorporated more into the MCA, and simplification is also a good thing. I think Spellcasting should just be as the cleric.
I also included a new ability - Prophectic Utterance. As an "Apostle" and a cleric/oracel combo, I think there should be something distictly divinationary about this one, thus Prophetic utterance, based on the Samurai's Resolve class feature. If the advancement in power at 8th level on any of the usage types is OP, I'm fine dialing it back. Always easier to dial back then try to make it stronger. However, As there are shorter durations on the higher versions, I don;t think it's OP.
Some choose to serve the gods, while others are chosen to serve them. Then there are those who are chosen by two deities who have declare a truce or an alliance to serve them in a unified cause. Such might include a lawful good heavenly lord and a lawful evil archdevil who join forces to aid one another against a demon lord who seeks to destroy the entire world. Perhaps a deity wants to recreate itself with a new image or manifestation different from that of its dually organized church, or two faiths that were once in conflict seek to spread the message that a unification of their forces is necessary to make a great philosophical step forward. These chosen apostles are often unwilling pawns, agents of change who are consecrated to a specific deity and find themselves in possession of powers granted by another deity. A chosen apostle is either scorned by both churches or regarded as their savior. She serves as a balance between prayer and channeling magic, blessings and curses, and must learn how to both serve and survive her two masters that could at any moment break the very pact that brought them together.
Primary: Cleric.
Secondary: Oracle.
Alignment: A chosen apostle's alignment must be within one step of either of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The chosen apostle adds her oracle mystery skills to her class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. If the chosen prophet already has a skill granted by her mystery, she can choose another skill in its place. The chosen prophet gains a number of ranks at each level equal to +4 Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The chosen apostle is proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). Some oracle revelations grant additional proficiencies. A chosen apostle is also proficient with both of her deities’ chosen weapons.
Spellcasting: A chosen apostle prepares and casts spells as a cleric, and gains bonus spell per day for a high Wisdom score. A chosen apostle can cast her domain or mystery spells in her domain spell slots.
Domain: This is exactly like the cleric’s domains ability, except that she chooses one domain from each of her deities’ list of domains. Each day, she can select one of these two domains as her active domain for that day. Once chosen, it cannot be changed until the next time she prepares her spells. She can access any powers of the domain currently in effect as normal. A chosen apostle gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a chosen apostle can prepare the spells from her current domain or her current mystery in that slot.
Dual Faiths: At 1st level, a chosen apostle must select two deities. These deities must have at least one aspect of the same alignment, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis, and the other aspect at least one step removed along the other axis. For example, a chosen apostle could choose a lawful good and a lawful evil deity, or a neutral good and a neutral deity, but not a chaotic good and a lawful evil deity.
Mystery: At 1st level, a chosen apostle gains the oracle’s mystery ability, except that a chosen prophet selects two mysteries, one that corresponds to one of her deity’s domains (or subdomains) and the second to one of her other deity’s domains, subject to GM’s approval. For example, if one of the chosen apostle’s deity’s grants the Air domain and the other grants the Good domain, she could select the Winds (Air) or Heavens (Good) mystery. Each day, she can choose one of these two mysteries as her active mystery. Once chosen, it cannot be changed until the next time she prepares her spells for the day. A chosen apostle must choose a mystery from among those listed in oracle class description.
Unlike an oracle, a chosen apostle does not learn her mystery spells, but she can cast them in her domain spell slot. At 1st level, she can cast her first mystery spell from her active mystery in her 1st–level domain spell slot, and each subsequent level mystery spell in each higher level domain spell slot every two levels thereafter. This ability, revelation, and final replace the cleric’s second domain and spontaneous casting.
Oracle’s Curse (Ex): At 1st level, a chosen apostle gains the oracle’s curse ability.
Prophetic Utterance: Starting at 2nd level, the chosen apostle gains divine revelation that she can call upon to gain insight and understanding about specific events or objects. She can use this ability once per day at 2nd level, plus one additional time per day for every two chosen apostle levels beyond 2nd. She can use this prophecy in a number of ways.
Detect Magic (Sp): As a move action, the chosen apostle can spend one use of her prophecy concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is magical, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the chosen apostle does not detect magic in any other object or individual within range. This effect otherwise functions as detect magic. If the chosen apostle is of 8th level or higher, this effect functions as the arcane sight spell but only lasts for 1 round per level.
Future Sight (Su): As a standard action, the chosen apostle can spend one use of her prophecy to determine whether a particular action will bring good or bad results for her or her allies in the immediate future. This effect functions as the augury spell. If the chosen apostle is of 8th level or higher, this effect functions as the divination spell.
Lore Mastery (Ex): As an immediate action, the chosen apostle can spend one use of her prophecy to gain a bonus to a single Knowledge check equal to 1/2 her chosen apostle level. The chosen apostle must make the choice to use this ability before the roll is made. She can make any Knowledge check untrained when using this ability. If the chosen apostle is of 8th level or higher, she can add her Wisdom modifier instead of her Intelligence modifier to this check.
This ability and oracle’s curse replace channeled energy.
Revelation: At 1st level, a chosen apostle gains the oracle revelation ability. She can choose one revelation from either of her two chosen mysteries at 1st level. Once chosen it cannot be changed. At 3rd level and every six levels thereafter, a chosen apostle gains an additional revelation from either of her two chosen mysteries.
Final Revelation: At 20th level, a chosen apostle gains the final mystery from one of her two chosen mysteries. Once chosen, it cannot be changed.
Table: Chosen Apostle
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Domain, dual worshipper, mystery, 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
oracle’s curse, orisons, revelation
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Prophetic utterance 4 2+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Revelation 4 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Final revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1
It should be enough to choose from mysteries granted by both deities. Each deity has a list of mysteries granted as well as domains, after all.
Prophetic Utterance is good, but I think that spontaneous casting should be a strong option. This IS a cleric/oracle.
I agree with bardess, that would make sense.
It should be enough to choose from mysteries granted by both deities. Each deity has a list of mysteries granted as well as domains, after all.
Prophetic Utterance is good, but I think that spontaneous casting should be a strong option. This IS a cleric/oracle.
I did not know thatthe gods list mysteries. So, are you saying that the Mystery entry should just say that you select one mystery from those beloinging to either deity? Simple as htat, instead of the idead of switching between them? Probably easier. Should we then do the same with the Domain ability? Just select one domain from either god's list of domains?
Also, I will add in the spontaneous casting option.
Switching is good. I'd just write this way:
Domain: This is exactly like the cleric’s domains ability, except that she chooses one domain from either of her deities’ list of domains every time she prepares her spells. Once chosen, it cannot be changed until the next time she prepares her spells. She can access any powers of the domain currently in effect as normal. A chosen apostle gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a chosen apostle can prepare the spells from her current domain or her current mystery in that slot.
Mystery: At 1st level, a chosen apostle gains the oracle’s mystery ability, except that a chosen apostle selects a mystery granted from either of her deities. Once chosen, it cannot be changed until the next time she prepares her spells for the day. The mystery chosen each day can't be granted from the same deity that grants that day's active domain.
Unlike an oracle, a chosen apostle does not learn her mystery spells, but she can cast them in her domain spell slot. At 1st level, she can cast her first mystery spell from her active mystery in her 1st–level domain spell slot, and each subsequent level mystery spell in each higher level domain spell slot every two levels thereafter. This ability, revelation, and final replace the cleric’s second domain and spontaneous casting.
I like that.
Maybe one deity could be the domain-giver (the one who se church the Apostle formally belongs to) and the other the mystery-giver, to further limit her. But maybe it's too much?
I say just go with what you have, makes it pretty simple and straight forward. Choose a domain from one deity, must choose your mystery from the other.
OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT
We have just released the second pdf in our Multiclass Archetypes series, Arcane Masters I. Download it free from our wiki. On to the next one.
Mmmm, arcane power at my fingertips...
I cant wait to be on one of these downloads. So cool.
So im looking over the document...are we sure we don't want the savage shaman at 3/4ths bab? It currently seems woefully underpowered.
# CHOSEN APOSTLE
The mystic theurge has an ability we might be able to use for spell substitution. I rewrote it quite heavily for the chosen apostle. Basically, instead of giving up 2 spells, you give up a a spell of a higher level, and also cannot do this with your highest level of spells.
Spontaneous Spells (Su)
A chosen apostle can substitute her prepared spells for any other spell on the cleric/oracle spell list of one level lower. At 5th level, a chosen apostle can substitute 2nd-level spells she has prepared with any 1st level spell. For each 2 levels, the level opf spells she can substitute increases by one, until she can substitute a 7th level prepared spell for any 6th level spell at level 19.This replaces spontaneous casting.
So im looking over the document...are we sure we don't want the savage shaman at 3/4ths bab? It currently seems woefully underpowered.
Well, even though splitting the difference between a d12 HD and Full BAB Barbarian and d6 HD and 1/2 BAB might seem like a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB class, it's the Witch Primary that is keeping the HD and BAB down. Also, the flavor text identifies the desired design space:
Most savage shamans prefer to cast magical spells to direct combat.
Bumping the Savage Shaman up to a d8, 3/4 BAB puts the class more into the Inquisitor and Magus realm - brutal hexes are supposed to give the witch more eldritch power, not martial acumen…
We'll see what the rest of the MCP crew think...
Though getting brutal hexes at 1st level, but no actual hexes at 1st level is kinda hinky. ;)
#Chosen Apostle
Yeah, Starfox's suggestion could do too, but my worry is always that it could become too powerful. I leave the last word to Elghinn.
As for the casting stat, and spell progression, I made it an hybrid to reflect somewhat a "split casting" as in the RGG's Magister. Should we only use cleric stuff here?
The Savage Shaman is -fine-. I'm really not getting how it's considered underpowered...
#CHOSEN APOSTLE
@Bardess: I think leaving it cleric is the best.
Prophetic Utterance: I think we should just add this at the end of the ablity.
"If the chosen apostle has at least 1 use of her prophetic utterance, she can spontaneously cast healing spells like a cleric."
But then, who wouldn't want to keep around at least 1 use to ensure spontaneous casting.
Just spontaneous healing, then? I thought that you wanted to allow other spontaneous spells.
I had, we'll. What do others think? WE only have so much to swap things.
Well, even though splitting the difference between a d12 HD and Full BAB Barbarian and d6 HD and 1/2 BAB might seem like a d8 HD, 3/4 BAB class, it's the Witch Primary that is keeping the HD and BAB down. Also, the flavor text identifies the desired design space:
Most savage shamans prefer to cast magical spells to direct combat.
and then we reduced spellcasting, gave them a mostly pointless strength boosting class feature that prevents spellcasting, that also causes a condition that penalizes physical exertion. In exchange we get an ability that's equivalent in power to a feat and 1/2 by 15th level and loses the ability to hexes after using it...in exchange for a hex. oh and a hex version of the rage spell(or the first level orc bloodline power) and and a pretty sweet confusion causing shout as well
Bumping the Savage Shaman up to a d8, 3/4 BAB puts the class more into the Inquisitor and Magus realm - brutal hexes are supposed to give the witch more eldritch power, not martial acumen…
We'll see what the rest of the MCP crew think...
fair enough, how about a something different than watered down rage then, or at least let them cast spells while raging and using their con modifier for class features or something.
The Savage Shaman is -fine-. I'm really not getting how it's considered underpowered...
because it has conflicting class features (rage and spellcasting), and a class feature that is best used as a last ditch effort at best, and a bad idea at worst(brutal hex). losing the ability to hex and taking a dex penalty (which is bad for casters at low levels) is a terrible price to pay for +1 dc (levels 1 -7), highly questionable for a +2 (8-14), and +3 comes way late in the game (15+).
This doesn't feel like a coherent whole right now.
Go find all the ways to increase Hex save DC's. Go on, I'll give you a moment.
...
Back? Yeah, two or three or maybe four if you include the Ability Focus feat. Bit harder than raising spell DC's. Normally, a Witch is going to have lower Hex than their 'key' spell DC's; spell focus feats, Witch Knife, etc. Savage Shaman gets to ignore that in exchange for a few less spells.
In addition, they have access to Rage powers; grabbing up Terrifying Howl or using Intimidating Glare+Hexofchoice can be extremely potent, as can the more 'defensive' rage powers.
There's no denying it's not one of our more powerful MCA's, but hey- not every class needs to be created equal. Sometimes they end up a bit tougher, some a bit stronger.
On the other hand, we aren't perfect. If you honestly feel there's an issue with the class, then I do have a suggestion or two to fix that for you, though I don't see the need for it-and would argue extensively against- in the PDF 'official' version.
1) Toss it a rage power at 4th, 10th, 16th level
OR
2) Increase the HD to D8, but don't increase the BAB (Hey, it is part BARBARIAN ;3)
Weirdly enough i was about suggest those exact 2 things, nice. Also, how do they get rage powers?
They can choose a rage power in place of a hex. >:3
They can choose a rage power in place of a hex. >:3
ahhhh i missed that one line, which makes me feel WAY better about this, as it at least gives me a reason to rage. still like the hit die bump, it just feels right. I supported the same idea for the skald.
# Savage Shaman
I could see the HD rise to d8 thematically more than an increase to BAB. A hardy, savage life led making them tougher, but not necessarily more able in combat...
Sure, as a house rule it's a small one and I'd say go for it if you feel it is needed. But in the official PDF? Psh, the class doesn't -need- it and it's basically extra icing on a cake of awesome interactive combo pie.
I'm at my computer now so I am totally get to these
Go find all the ways to increase Hex save DC's. Go on, I'll give you a moment.
...
Back? Yeah, two or three or maybe four if you include the Ability Focus feat. Bit harder than raising spell DC's. Normally, a Witch is going to have lower Hex than their 'key' spell DC's; spell focus feats, Witch Knife, etc. Savage Shaman gets to ignore that in exchange for a few less spells.
*slow clap*yeah pointing the least supported base class in the game has a lack of options is totally justification for not producing support for it, I mean seriously who creates stuff for under supported content in the game. Maybe I am just crazy and I am alone in my assertion that the witch is undersupported.
In addition, they have access to Rage powers; grabbing up Terrifying Howl or using Intimidating Glare+Hexofchoice can be extremely potent, as can the more 'defensive' rage powers.
if you have enough strength or charisma to back up those dcs and still have enough to cover you casting, hexes, hitpoints, and initiative sure. Unlikely though.
There's no denying it's not one of our more powerful MCA's, but hey- not every class needs to be created equal. Sometimes they end up a bit tougher, some a bit stronger.
right now it has a class ability thats a straight trap option (brutal hex, you're better off not using it at all), and there really is only a small bit of rage powers actually useful to the mca.
On the other hand, we aren't perfect. If you honestly feel there's an issue with the class, then I do have a suggestion or two to fix that for you, though I don't see the need for it-and would argue extensively against- in the PDF 'official' version.
And i'd argue extensively for it. If it's our Official version, not putting our best work in it is basically a cop out. If paizo isn't above doing errata, then the we shouldn't be either. It's really just professional courtesy.
Woah Christos. Easy on there. We have proved again and again that we are *not* above making errata or changes.
On Hex DCs - have you perhaps considered that there is a very good reason why there are so few ways to buff Hex DCs? It's not a lack of support for witches methinks, rahter a considered avoidance of buffig a spammable and quite powerful core ability.
I'm not sure the witch is as undersupported as say, the Ninja, Samurai or Antipaladin. But that is Paizo - there are plenty of witch options in 3PP, and as you and I personally are developing more, perhaps we can leave it at that... ;p
Woah Christos. Easy on there. We have proved again and again that we are *not* above making errata or changes.
On Hex DCs - have you perhaps considered that there is a very good reason why there are so few ways to buff Hex DCs? It's not a lack of support for witches methinks, rahter a considered avoidance of buffig a spammable and quite powerful core ability.
I'm not sure the witch is as undersupported as say, the Ninja, Samurai or Antipaladin. But that is Paizo - there are plenty of witch options in 3PP, and as you and I personally are developing more, perhaps we can leave it at that... ;p
well I did link ultimate witch and warlock for a reason. As for the dc thing, I am just arguing that if your going to sacrifice a valuable class feature like your 1st level hex (which also means you can't even pick up extra hex yet), the class ability in return must be worth it, instead in it's current form you are better off not using it 99 times out of a 100. that's not good at all, A hex is typically better than a feat so a replacement ability should at least match the strength of a feat to be worth it. It would be better if it just ended rage for a +2 bonus to dc and counted as having the ability focus feat, which would prevent stacking with the feat. Really what bugs me is the whole "cannot use your hex class feature" thing, which is completely unnecessary and turns a so-so ability into one your better off without.
# Savage Shaman
Heh, as I'm often arguing here in homebrew, replacing the 2nd level hex is a better idea, so the witch doesn't have to wait until 3rd level to pick the Extra Hex feat, nor waste a 1st level feat (though Toughness springs to mind...;p)
Then, if the Savage Shaman gets rage and a hex at first level, folks would complain that at 1st level it turtly rawks dood!!!
As for the end of the rage hex cancelling - there was a *lot* of back and forth on just how the hex-while-raging-plus-buff should work between all five of the MCP crew.
well losing rage powers + fatigue isn't exactly nothing after all.
#HERITAGE ASCETIC
Christos, you good with the current version?
Here's what I think the final version of the Chosen Apostle should look like.
Some choose to serve the gods, while others are chosen to serve them. Then there are those who are chosen by two deities who have declare a truce or an alliance to serve them in a unified cause. Such might include a lawful good heavenly lord and a lawful evil archdevil who join forces to aid one another against a demon lord who seeks to destroy the entire world. Perhaps a deity wants to recreate itself with a new image or manifestation different from that of its dually organized church, or two faiths that were once in conflict seek to spread the message that a unification of their forces is necessary to make a great philosophical step forward. These chosen apostles are often unwilling pawns, agents of change who are consecrated to a specific deity and find themselves in possession of powers granted by another deity. A chosen apostle is either scorned by both churches or regarded as their savior. She serves as a balance between prayer and channeling magic, blessings and curses, and must learn how to both serve and survive her two masters that could at any moment break the very pact that brought them together.
Primary: Cleric.
Secondary: Oracle.
Alignment: A chosen apostle's alignment must be within one step of either of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The chosen apostle adds her oracle mystery skills to her class skills in addition to the normal cleric class skills. If the chosen prophet already has a skill granted by her mystery, she can choose another skill in its place. The chosen prophet gains a number of ranks at each level equal to +4 Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The chosen apostle is proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields). Some oracle revelations grant additional proficiencies. A chosen apostle is also proficient with both of her deities’ chosen weapons.
Spellcasting: A chosen apostle prepares and casts spells as a cleric, and gains bonus spell per day for a high Wisdom score. A chosen apostle can cast her domain or mystery spells in her domain spell slots.
Domain: This is exactly like the cleric’s domains ability, except that she chooses one domain from either of her deities’ list of domains when she prepares her spells. Once chosen, it cannot be changed until the next time she prepares her spells. She can access any powers of the domain currently in effect as normal. A chosen apostle gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a chosen apostle can prepare the spells from her current domain or her current mystery in that slot.
Dual Faiths: At 1st level, a chosen apostle must select two deities. These deities must have at least one aspect of the same alignment, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis, and the other aspect at least one step removed along the other axis. For example, a chosen apostle could choose a lawful good and a lawful evil deity, or a neutral good and a neutral deity, but not a chaotic good and a lawful evil deity.
Mystery: At 1st level, a chosen apostle gains the oracle’s mystery ability, except that she selects a mystery granted by either of her deities. Once chosen, it cannot be changed until the next time she prepares her spells for the day. The chosen apostle cannot choose a mystery from the same deity from whom she has selected her current domain.
Unlike an oracle, a chosen apostle does not learn her mystery spells, but she can cast them in her domain spell slot. At 1st level, she can cast her first mystery spell from her active mystery in her 1st–level domain spell slot, and each subsequent level mystery spell in each higher level domain spell slot every two levels thereafter. This ability, oracle’s curse, and revelation replace the cleric’s second domain.
Oracle’s Curse (Ex): At 1st level, a chosen apostle gains the oracle’s curse ability.
Prophetic Utterance: Starting at 2nd level, the chosen apostle gains divine revelation that she can call upon to gain insight and understanding about specific events or objects. She can use this ability once per day at 2nd level, plus one additional time per day for every two chosen apostle levels beyond 2nd. She can use this prophecy in a number of ways.
Detect Magic (Sp): As a move action, the chosen apostle can spend one use of her prophetic utterance concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is magical, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the chosen apostle does not detect magic in any other object or individual within range. This effect otherwise functions as detect magic. If the chosen apostle is of 8th level or higher, this effect functions as the arcane sight spell but only lasts for 1 round per level.
Future Sight (Su): As a standard action, the chosen apostle can spend one use of her prophetic utterance to determine whether a particular action will bring good or bad results for her or her allies in the immediate future. This effect functions as the augury spell. If the chosen apostle is of 8th level or higher, this effect functions as the divination spell.
Lore Mastery (Ex): As an immediate action, the chosen apostle can spend one use of her prophetic utterance to gain a bonus to a single Knowledge check equal to 1/2 her chosen apostle level. The chosen apostle must make the choice to use this ability before the roll is made. She can make any Knowledge check untrained when using this ability. If the chosen apostle is of 8th level or higher, she can add her Wisdom modifier instead of her Intelligence modifier to this check.
This ability and final revelation replace channeled energy.
Spontaneous Casting (Su): A chosen apostle can channel stored spell energy into spells that she did not prepare ahead of time. The chosen apostle can “lose” any prepared spell that is not an orison, domain, or mystery spell in order to cast any spell on the cleric/oracle spell list of one spell level lower. At 1st level, a chosen apostle can “lose” a 1st–level spell she has prepared to cast any orison on the cleric/oracle spell list. At 4th level and every three levels thereafter, the level of spell that the chosen apostle can “lose” increases by 1, up to a maximum of 7th–level spells at 19th level. Restrictions on alignment spells still apply. This ability replaces the cleric's normal spontaneous casting.
Revelation: At 1st level, a chosen apostle gains the oracle revelation ability. She can choose one revelation from either of her two chosen mysteries at 1st level. Once chosen it cannot be changed. At 3rd level and every six levels thereafter, a chosen apostle gains an additional revelation from either of her two chosen mysteries.
Final Revelation: At 20th level, a chosen apostle gains the final mystery from one of her two chosen mysteries. Once chosen, it cannot be changed.
Table: Chosen Apostle
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Domain, dual faiths, mystery, 3 1+1 — — — — — — — —
oracle’s curse, orisons, revelation,
spontaneous casting
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Prophetic utterance 4 2+1 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Revelation 4 2+1 1+1 — — — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 4 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 4 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 4 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 4 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 — —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1 2+1
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 3+1
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Final revelation 4 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1 4+1
#SAVAGE SHAMAN
One thing I think we should do, is move Brutal Hexes to 2nd level, as it's useless at 1st level, even if it does replace the 1st level hex.
It's okay for me. :)
Then if no one has any major concerns I think we'll call the Chosen Apostle done. I think the new Spontanteous Casting, though very versatile, has a good cost/benefit mechanic, lose a higher level spells to cast ant spell 1 level lower.
Heritage is solid with me, and i am loving that chosen apostle.
#SAVAGE SHAMAN
One thing I think we should do, is move Brutal Hexes to 2nd level, as it's useless at 1st level, even if it does replace the 1st level hex.
that still doesn't make the ability itself that appealing, but its a good start.
If you're good, then we'll move on.
Next up are
1) Chosen Theurge – Ora/Sor (Kyras/Thomas, A.) - PMed, but I have it so I'll post it up tomorrow, as he may be unavailable as I believe he told us eariler in the thread.
2) “Name” – Bbn/Mnk (Gameos) - PMed
Okay Elghinn, for my "Melee Summoner" placeholder can you put me down for a Pactgifted Mayhem/Fury/Nordyperson/Summoner (Sum/Witch).
I'm replacing the SLAs with hexes and applying the evolutions to the Summoner (NOT like a synthesist - i.e. no attribute bonuses etc) and will somehow work in the Patron spells too. :)
If OSW is doing a Sum/Witch, I'd like to do a Witch/Summoner. I just got some hellboyish baba yaga/alienist idea popping into my head.
I'll pop it out by the weekend, put me on the list somewhere approximating where we'll be saturday/sunday if possible?
@OSW - Done
@Raider - You are in the queue after Gameos and Thomas, A., as you haven't been in the queue yet. And before my next one.
Here's Thomas, A.'s Chosen Theurge. This'll need some work to make it more Sorcerer, and some work on the spells per day and spells known tables.
Primary: Oracle.
Secondary: Sorcerer.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The chosen theurge selects three sorcerer skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal oracle class skills. The chosen theurge gains a number of ranks at each level equal to +4 Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The chosen theurge is proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, and with shields (except tower shields). Some oracle revelations grant additional proficiencies. A chosen apostle can cast arcane spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a chosen theurge wearing medium or heavy armor incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass chosen theurge still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spells: A Chosen Theurge can cast divine and arcane spells. Her spells per day and her spells know are split with a “/” the first number shows how many divine spells she knows or is able to cast the second number is her arcane spells that she knows or is able to cast. To learn or cast a spell, a Chosen Theurge must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an oracle's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the Chosen Theurge’s Charisma modifier.
In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score she may cast a divine or arcane spell with this bonus spell (see Table 1–3 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
Like other spontaneous casters, A Chosen Theurge’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A Chosen Theurge begins play knowing three 0-level spells of divine and three 0-level spells of arcane as well as one 1st-level spell of each divine and arcane of her choice. At each new oracle level, she may gains one of each type of magic, as indicated on spells known table. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells an oracle knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on spells known table are fixed.
In addition to the spells gained by gaining levels she will gain spells based off which Mystery she picks these spells do not take up space on her list of spells know. She may cast these spells as divine or arcane she picks before she cases the spell.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered oracle level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), an oracle can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the oracle loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A Chosen Theurge may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level. She cannot swap a divine spell for an arcane or vies versa nor can she swap any spells gained from her mystery.
She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. Chosen Theurge does not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components. She also cast arcane spells as if they had Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.
Share Destiny (Sp): At 3rd level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it an insight bonus on attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and saving throws equal to 1/2 your Chosen Theurge (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
It Was Meant To Be (Su): At 11th level, you may reroll any one attack roll, critical hit confirmation roll, or level check made to overcome spell resistance. You must decide to use this ability after the first roll is made but before the results are revealed by the GM. You must take the second result, even if it is worse. At 11th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 15th level, you can use this ability twice per day, three times per day at level 20.
Unstoppable Destiny (Su): At 19th level, your ultimate destiny is drawing near. Once per day, when an attack or spell that causes damage would result in your death, you may attempt a DC 20 Will save. If successful, you are instead reduced to 1 hit point. You then gain a +10 bonus to your AC, CBD, and to all saving throws until the end of your next turn.
Spell Synthesis (Su): At 20th level, a Chosen Theurge can cast two spells, one from each of her spellcasting classes, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. The Chosen Theurge can make any decisions concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both of the spells takes a –2 penalty on saves made against each spell. The Chosen Theurge receives a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with these two spells. A Chosen Theurge may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier.
Table: Chosen Theurge
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 Mystery, oracle’s curse, orisons, revelation 2/2 — — — — — — — —
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 Mystery spell 2/2 — — — — — — — —
3rd +2 +1 +1 +3 Shared destiny 3/3 — — — — — — — —
4th +3 +1 +1 +4 Mystery spell 4/4 2/2 — — — — — — —
5th +3 +1 +1 +4 4/4 2/2 — — — — — — —
6th +4 +2 +2 +5 Mystery spell 4/4 3/3 2/2 — — — — — —
7th +5 +2 +2 +5 Revelation 4/4 4/4 2/2 — — — — — —
8th +6/+1 +2 +2 +6 Mystery spell 4/4 4/4 3/3 2/2 — — — — —
9th +6/+1 +3 +3 +6 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/2 — — — — —
10th +7/+2 +3 +3 +7 Mystery spell 4/4 4/4 4/4 3/3 2/2 — — — —
11th +8/+3 +3 +3 +7 It was meant to be 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/2 — — — —
12th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 Mystery spell 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 3/3 2/2 — — —
13th +9/+4 +4 +4 +8 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/2 — — —
14th +10/+4 +4 +4 +9 Mystery spell 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 3/3 2/2 — —
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +5 +9 Revelation 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/2 — —
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 Mystery spell 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 3/3 2/2 —
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +5 +10 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/2 —
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +6 +11 Mystery spell 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 3/3 2/2
19th +15/+9/+5 +6 +6 +11 Unstoppable desitny 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 2/2
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Spell synthesis 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4 4/4
Table: Chosen Theurge Spells Known
Level Spells Known
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 3/3 1/1 — — — — — — — —
2nd 3/3 1/1 — — — — — — — —
3rd 3/3 2/2 — — — — — — — —
4th 4/4 2/2 0 — — — — — — —
5th 4/4 2/2 1/1 — — — — — — —
6th 4/4 2/2 1/1 0 — — — — — —
7th 4/4 3/3 2/2 1/1 — — — — — —
8th 5/5 3/3 2/2 1/1 0 — — — — —
9th 5/5 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 — — — — —
10th 5/5 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 0 — — — —
11th 5/5 4/4 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 — — — —
12th 5/5 4/4 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 0 — — —
13th 5/5 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 — — —
14th 5/5 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 0 — —
15th 5/5 5/5 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 — —
16th 5/5 5/5 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 0 —
17th 5/5 5/5 4/4 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 —
18th 5/5 5/5 4/4 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1 0
19th 5/5 5/5 5/5 4/4 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 1/1
20th 5/5 5/5 5/5 4/4 4/4 3/3 3/3 2/2 2/2 2/2
#CHOSEN THEURGE
First imprssions, Thomas, A. seems to want a strong Oracle element to this MCA. So in line with that, I suggest:
1) Needs more sorcerer options. Choose a bloodline at 1st, gains skills. Then, able to gain 1st, 3rd, and 9th level bloodline powers in place of revelations, likely at those levels or higher, with the previous level power as a prereq - must have 1st level blooldine power to select the 3rd level one, etc.
2) Spells: She should just use the normal oracle spell progression and spells known, as both are spontaneous casters. I think we can have her add mystery spells as normal OR she can choose her equivalent level bloodline spell instead. Or we could just give her both mystery and bloodline spells.
Thoughts on gaining access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list in addition to the cleric/oracle for Spells Known? I think that might be OP here. OR perhpas we can limit it? We could just create a list of Oracle-esque sorcerer spells we can add to the oracle spell list. That's probably the best way to go.
3) The new abilities could be added as new "revelations" that can be chosen, regardless of the mystery chosen, and specific to the MCA. Spell Synthesis can be a new Final Revelation for this MCA.
Or we can create a new Mystery altogether, including all these in it? Then we can include in it the choice of 1st, 3rd and 9th level bloodlines too? But then we'd need to come up with an additional number of new revelations too. Might be easier to just do the aforementioned.
#Chosen Theurge
On 2; Total combination of lists is a no. Bloodline spells is generally a yes.
Outside of a few bloodlines (I find elemental to be a prime example here) and a few domains (Healing is the first to come to mind here!) adding a single set of bloodline or domain spells to a class is fairly easy and not overly troublesome.
Basically, unless a bloodline, patron, or domain group of spells is -completely- against the nature of a spell list (Giving Healing domain to Sorcerer, BOO) we can do that without too much worry for balance.
So, what bloodlines work best here? We can prolly whip up a list. Or maybe even use a system similar to the pactbound theurge's "Pacts", combine bloodlines and mysteries?
@Raider
I don't know if we need to go to the extent of using the "pact" approach. I think we can just do this, and then we figure out what bloodines (perhaps including the wildblooded ones to add some depth) match with the listed mysteries. Like so
Mysterious Bloodline: At 1st level, a chosen theurge gains the sorcerer’s bloodline ability, and chooses a bloodline that complements her mystery (see below). She gains her bloodline arcana and adds her bloodline skill to her list of skills. In addition, a chosen theurge adds her bloodline spells to her spell list at the indicated levels. She does not gain her bloodline feats.
At 3rd level or higher, a chosen theurge can gain his 1st level bloodline power in place of a revelation. At 7th level and every four levels thereafter, a chosen theurge can gain each subsequent bloodline power in place of a revelation, up to her 9th level bloodline power. The chosen theurge must gain her 1st level bloodline power before gaining her 3rd level bloodline power, and her 3rd level power before gaining her 9th level bloodline power.
The chosen theurge gains one of the following bloodlines (or associated wildblooded bloodline) according to her chosen mystery.
Ancestor: Destined (Karmic), Imperious, Kobold, Orc, Oni, Rakshasa
Battle: Draconic (Linnorm)
Bones: Undead (Sanguine)
Dark Tapestry: Aberrant (Warped),
Flame: Efreeti, Elemental (Primal)
Heavens: Celestial (Empyreal), Maestro
Juju: Undead (Sanguine)
Life: Martyred
Lore: Arcane (Sage)
Lunar: Starsoul (Void-Touched)
Metal: Elemental (Primal)
Nature: Serpentine (Envenomed), Stormborn (Arial)
Occult: Dreamspun (Visionary), Shadow (Umbral)
Outer Rifts: Abyssal (Brutal), Daemon, Div, Infernal (Pit-Fiend)
Spellscar: Protean (Anarchic)
Stone: Deep Earth (Bedrock), Elemental (Primal), Shaitan
Time: Draconic (Linnorm), Accursed, Pestilence
Waves: Aquatic (Seaborn), Elemental (Primal), Marid
Wind: Djinni, Elemental (Primal)
Winter: Boreal (Rime-Blooded)
Wood: Fey (Sylvan), Verdant (Groveborn)
This ability replaces the revelation gained at 1st level.
EDIT: Added in the appropriate bloodlines (wildblooded bloodlines)
#Chosen Theurge
In going through the bloodlines, I realized that Thomas, A.'s Shared Destiny, It was Meant To Be, and Unstoppable Destiny abilities are the Destined bloodline's 1st, 9th, and 15th level powers. So there is no need to include them as we are going with actual bloodlines now.
However, I think we can do this. Let the MCA choose her Final Revelation, or her 15th level bloodline power, or the new Spell Synthesis (needs some work though) ability as her final revelation. In this case, I don't think the MCA should necessarily have the 1st, 3rd, and 9th level powers through revelations to pick the 15th level power as her Final Revelation, as it is a capstone ability.
EDIT
Like this...
Final Revelation: At 20th level, when a chosen theurge gains her final revelation, she can choose to gain her 15th level bloodline power instead. The chosen theurge does not need to have her previous bloodline powers to choose her 15th level bloodline power as her final revelation. In addition, the chosen theurge can choose the following new final revelation in place of the one granted by her mystery.
Spell Synthesis (Su): Upon reaching 20th level, you can cast two spells using the same action. Each spell must have the same casting time and be of the same level or lower than the other. The chosen theurge can make any decisions concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both of spells takes a –2 penalty to any saving throws made against each spell. When using this ability, the chosen theurge gains a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with either of these two spells. A chosen theurge may use this ability a number of times per day equal to her Charisma modifier.
Remember to try and avoid bloodline options that are particularly blast, charm/dominate, or utility heavy. Elemental, Fey, etc.
This is less of an issue when it's a 1/day, like domain spells; much, much more of one when it's part of a spells known situation.
The Chosen Theurge can only gain up to 9th level bloodline powers (excluding the 15th level one at 20th), that's pretty limiting, especially since the earliest she could gain it would be 11th level. I don't see restircting the options as really doing anything, especially if the players want to get revelations, then powers are bumped even to even later levels.
I don't like limiting options to players just becouse they could be too blasty or enchanting. If it was a Ora 10/Sor 10, they could still get the powers, spells, and feats. As much as we try to balance things, to me, this is in the realm of the GM to limit, not us. Metagaming should be left to the GM.
If you're refering to spells from bllodline spells, again, it's a total of 9 spell options that they still need to learn as spells known. They don't get to add them directly to their spells known. However, I do think they should have the option to "learn" their mystery spell or their bloodline spell. If the issue is the 15th level power, we can remove it and just leave Spell Synthesis as the other option. In fact, that may be a good thing to do.
Any other feedback on this one, other than just me and Raider? Multiple view points are always good.