RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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The Guide to Absalom's notes about spellcasting create a good rule of thumb for many cosmopolitan settlements, though alignment and local conditions will probably tweak things.
You're right. This would make a good blog.
I look forward to reading it! These kind of immersive discussions really bring a lot to the game.
Venture-Captain, Alabama—Birmingham
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There is a really big difference in using a cell phone in a social situation and casting a spell. The cell phone may be rude, but a spell could kill everyone in the room, and should be treated accordingly. The only way that analogy makes sense is if you are using the new apple iGrenade as your not-so-smart phone.
Magic may be commonplace in Golarion, but magic is well known for being dangerous.
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Excepting one problem: magic is pricey. A wand of even a cantrip runs out hundreds of gold, far more than it would cost to hire servants to constantly provide beverages to the room, for weeks. And lets say that you are an enterprising adept, who knows it costs hundreds of gold to make a wand. You would then hire yourself out at a rate of a few hundred a month, easily enough to pay for a health lifestyle. Also, consider what else high society could get for that wand: new clothes, outfit a few bodyguards, etc. Finally, you are assuming that there are throngs of magic users with little else to do in their day.
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Note, also, that using even a wand of Prestidigitation give sthe user an hour of clean-ups, cold drinks, and what-have-you for 7.5 gold. Not a bad trade-off.
An NPC adept with a couple or three levels can cast it once, and probably have it last the whole party. All for 5 gold per hour, I think, in pay.
Anyone with enough money, in a non-restricted society (Rahadoum, I am looking at you) might pay 5 gold for a casting of Purify Food and Drink, especially for a party with their friends, where they want to impress.
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Note, also, that using even a wand of Prestidigitation give sthe user an hour of clean-ups, cold drinks, and what-have-you for 7.5 gold. Not a bad trade-off.
An NPC adept with a couple or three levels can cast it once, and probably have it last the whole party. All for 5 gold per hour, I think, in pay.
Anyone with enough money, in a non-restricted society (Rahadoum, I am looking at you) might pay 5 gold for a casting of Purify Food and Drink, especially for a party with their friends, where they want to impress.
You know, to the rest of Golarion, who rely on Craft and Profession to get by, five gold pieces is quite a bit. Think like $500 US, a large sum for a cold drink.
-Matt
That's right. But it can also be used to fill a glass of water, stitch a ripped shirt, fix a broken chair, light a dark pouch, save someone's life, light a candle, copy a document, sanitize a meal, retrieve an object from across the room, open and close a door, warm up your food, chill a drink, clean your dress, and entertain children. And these are things that can be done at will by a caster with a Commoner's attributes.
You make a good point.
However, most people doing this are not strangers dripping with weapons, wearing armor, walking around with fierce beasts (or are with these folks). I think that this will have a large effect on whether people view that spellcaster as someone chilling their drink or more likely to be casting an offensive spell.
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As a relative newcomer to Golarion, is there any lands or towns in which my coach pulled by animated skeletal horses wouldn't raise a grand inquisition? Besides this Geb I hear of, that is.
Osirion is probably okish with it.
Absolom.. the people have seen everything (kind of like new york) You'd probably get people grabbing small children and running away, but no torch and pitchfork mobs.
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I like this discussion. Players don't seem to understand why NPC's get annoyed that Paladin's break out detect evil on every sentient creature, or when wizards are using detect magic like a junkie looking for a fix.
If I knew there was magic in the world and I could not understand what someone was doing, I would keep a supply of small throwing objects with me at all times. You cast a spell near me, and I don't trust you, you get hit in the face with my beer.
I'm very interested to see a blog post about this.
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If you are asking how magic is treated in Golarion in general, wouldn't James Jacobs be a more appropriate person to ask than John or Mike? That's what I'm gathering from your posts.
Regardless on who you get your answer from, it's still going to vary GM to GM on how they feel high society would react to a character casting magic at a party.
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And yeah, I figure a town guard letting himself be scanned by detect magic and other simple divinations is equivalent of a real-life law enforcement officer showing their badge. Standard procedure for officer-civilian interactions.Oooh, yeah! It should be part of the routine.
Here's what I'd hope for. When a PC casts detect magic on an NPC, even if that NPC is momentarily taken aback, the PC should just be able to say "Oh, I'm sorry. Look, it was just detect magic. No big deal." And it would be, and everyone would move on.
See, I would expect this to be like a guy at a dinner party openly staring at a woman for several seconds to estimate her breast size or the open market value of her jewelry. Not illegal, but more rude than no big deal. It should be considered crass to openly do so in polite society even though everyone probably does it behind everyone else's back.
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A thread on "GM tools" sparked an idea. I should get a few cheap pairs of Groucho Marx glasses and make paladins wear them when using detect evil, and casters wear the eyeball on spring glasses for detect magic.
Too many players seems to think these spells are completely invisible to the observer.
Its not a spell, its a spell like ability, so its more like someone reading your t shirt than saying "cha cha cha...." *eyebrow wriggle*
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I like this discussion. Players don't seem to understand why NPC's get annoyed that Paladin's break out detect evil on every sentient creature, or when wizards are using detect magic like a junkie looking for a fix...
I've seen this issue raised several times in this thread, so I think folks need to remember the difference between natural ability and spells.
A Paladin looks at you for 5-6 seconds, he's not casting a booga booga spell. He's just examining you, maybe too closely but not an open magic casting. A spellcaster on the other hand actually has to perform some mystical gestures and speak arcane words, which is a whole lot different, since then it could openly be interpreted as a hostile act.
So, do I think that a Paladin's detect evil would have the same reaction as a spell caster, I would say that these are different enough that they don't quite have the same effect.
Is the guy in armor who is looking intently at you using Detect Evil, or is he simply paying attention to what you are saying, the way polite people are supposed to?
During the party, the spellcaster slips away to use the facilities. While there, cast's Detect Magic, then wanders back into the party.
While I agree that people just starting to cast spells are likely to run into some resistance, there are times when it is appropriate (or can made to look like one of those times).
Example:
While talking to some folks, the spellcaster says that they prefer their wine well chilled, and cast Presdigitation and waves finger over the glass. If later during the conversation, the spellcaster frowns, casts a spell and then waves their finger over the glass again - were they cast presdigitation again or some other spell?
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I think people are overestimating how common spell casters are. If you got approached by someone in the street (who you may or may not know) who was waiving a metal detector or you were at the supermarket and someone was x-raying the canned tomatoes, what would you think of them? You'd find them a little odd at least, and probably wouldn't trust them.
I think John Compton's strange handheld device is the best analogy-someone levels something at you, you're not sure what it is, how would you feel? Threatened, annoyed, afraid? It could be a camera, a cell phone, a medical scanner; who knows? Maybe it's a lie detector, are you still ok? What if it turns out to be a taser? Still good?
That's why people react badly to strange spellcasting.
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The Guide to Absalom book told me that casting invisibility is massively illegal in Absalom, punishable extremely harshly.
That's interesting. What do we do as PFS GMs when a PC casts an invisibility spell in public in one of the many Absalom based scenarios? PCs generally haven't got the life or death defence when casting invisibility that they can roll out at other times. One for the blog.
It should be common PC knowledge that casting invisibility is illegal in Absalom, yet the Golarion lore is so large that it certainly isn't common player or GM knowledge.
Does that fact it is listed as a 3.5 paizo book, make any difference?
Hmm, I am tempted to add it to one of the alignment threads as an example of an evil act ;-)
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I think John Compton's strange handheld device is the best analogy-someone levels something at you, you're not sure what it is, how would you feel?Hold the phone there for a sec...(pun intended)
I see a pretty girl across the room at the Blakros wedding. I'm not sure she's my type so I cast Detect Good...from 60' away. How is that tantamount to waiving a mobile phone in someone's face?
I go to the local tavern with my wingman, a Bard. I see a pretty girl across the room and I ask my friend to cast Guidance on me before I ask to buy her an ale. Again, how is that tantamount to waiving a mobile phone in someone's face?
In the former situation, I'd say it's more comparable to googling her on your phone. She may be unaware, but the guy looking over your shoulder may think you're kind of a creep.
For the latter, it's more like having your friend spray you with pheromones before you chat up the woman. Again, nothing necessarily wrong with that, but again, kind of weird and creepy.
In general, I think that's how someone would treat magic in a social setting, should they be unable to identify the spell: "I don't know what you just did, and I'm not sure I like that."
It's kind of like when you're riding the train and two people keep looking at you and speaking to each other in a foreign language. They're not doing anything wrong, per se, but you may feel vaguely uncomfortable and think they're being kind of rude.
Now if those same people are wearing lots of big weapons, "kind of rude" may turn to "kind of threatening."
Perhaps the best way to look at it is to ask the player to RP the casting of the spell as the interaction is happening: say some gibberish words in a strong voice, waggle your fingers and throw some pocket lint in the air. Then let everyone determine whether that would be distracting to the conversation at hand.
One of the other issues with casting, is that you don't know what the caster is casting (for most of the population). Are they simply cleaning their dirty cloak, or are they about to rain down fire on you and the neighbourhood?
In someways, I view casting spells as modernday firearms on Earth. Some people wear them openly and no one bats an eye (police, military, etc.), while if you draw a weapon while waiting in line at Star Bucks or at a recpetion with VIPs, then the reaction may be a wee bit different.
Hmm, perhaps that should be a smart gun/phone - the device is a gun with a built in smart phone. So the question becomes, are they checking messages or about to shoot?
Edit: Typo
Y'know what Id LOVE to see? I list of local laws/customs for commonly visited areas (Absalom, Cheliax, and Osirion especially interesyt me). That would answer this and many other posted questions (about the undead, summoned devils, various spells and descriptors) by making it a legal (quantitative) issue rather than a moral (qualitative) one.
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Again, you are making the assumption that magic is common place. I think casters are sufficiently rare for magic itself to still be viewed with a little mistrust.
I expect that the majority of folk are familiar with spells from the clerics at the temples they visit/worship. If other casters are rare then the sort of spells commoners may expect are the ones they have seen their priests cast over the years.
Surely there must be a Paizo article somewhere on the prevalence or otherwise of casters?
I know Monte Cook wrote about it for Ptolus.
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I think John Compton's strange handheld device is the best analogy-someone levels something at you, you're not sure what it is, how would you feel?Hold the phone there for a sec...(pun intended)
I see a pretty girl across the room at the Blakros wedding. I'm not sure she's my type so I cast Detect Good...from 60' away. How is that tantamount to waiving a mobile phone in someone's face?
I go to the local tavern with my wingman, a Bard. I see a pretty girl across the room and I ask my friend to cast Guidance on me before I ask to buy her an ale. Again, how is that tantamount to waiving a mobile phone in someone's face?
I think your analogy falls down at the prevalence of cell phones in our modern lives. I think it would be more like this:
You go to Google the girl across the room. Your phone begins beeping and a countdown begins. You know (as does everyone very familiar with your particular cell phone), this is its "thinking" state. Everyone else at the table looks at you, unsure what is going on. Spellcasting isn't silent, discreet or always passive. You know nothing bad is going to happen (as do others with the right training), but not everyone does.
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I don't know if its the geek in me or I'm just weird but I'm loving this entire thread and the mental gymnastics we are all performing to have it. I could totally argue both sides of the issue and I've switched sides about 20 times, while reading all your responses. And at any point I could also defend the other sided or oppose it as the pros and cons are brought up that I either haven't seen brought up or have simply forgotten.
To the OP, BRAVO good sir, BRAVO, I'm enjoying myself immensely.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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In someways, I view casting spells as modernday firearms on Earth. Some people wear them openly and no one bats an eye (police, military, etc.), while if you draw a weapon while waiting in line at Star Bucks or at a recpetion with VIPs, then the reaction may be a wee bit different.
I think it would more like drawing a knife, because guns don't really have a practical purpose besides shooting. But if you pull out a knife, you could be about to stab someone, but you're probably just snipping a loose thread on your shirt or opening a box. I think most people would rely on context and body language to determine whether it was a threat or not.
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I expect that the majority of folk are familiar with spells from the clerics at the temples they visit/worship. If other casters are rare then the sort of spells commoners may expect are the ones they have seen their priests cast over the years.
I'm not sure its as prevalent as all that. Plagues break out and kill people and there are not enough NPC casters who can fix things or even fix anything. People die from their wounds all the time as well.
I'm thinking its more of the issue of the rich vs. the poor. We are essentially playing people who are in the 1% among other 1%ers. So the rich man who breaks his leg has it fixed 1 hour later, while the poor man becomes a cripple that leads him into becoming a beggar.
But even the rich man doesn't go to the Temple to get himself fixed when he cuts his finger. While the adventurer looks over at the priest traveling with him and says "Yo, bubba, can you channel all of us, we've all got scrapes and bruises and I'd hate for them to interfere with our next possible fight."
And the clerics goes, "Yeah, you're right, I don't want that wound to get infected or interfere with your ability to be at your peak performance."
So, are we truly living in Golarion common, or are we living in Golarion weird? Are we playing spoiled 'little Prima-Donas' who can't even live with a scratch, that most people would shrug off and allow to heal naturally? And are the spells as common, just because they are common in our profession? A cure disease might be common to your PC or mine but to most folks it might still be a 'miracle.'
Is it a case of the Ivory Tower complex? Are we living so high of the hog that we take things for granted? Are we the guys who belong to the Yacht Club and expect everyone else to have a Yacht, when most people can't even pay rent?
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In someways, I view casting spells as modernday firearms on Earth. Some people wear them openly and no one bats an eye (police, military, etc.), while if you draw a weapon while waiting in line at Star Bucks or at a recpetion with VIPs, then the reaction may be a wee bit different.
I think that's a decent analogy. In some parts of the world, civilian ownership of firearms is completely forbidden, just as the Laws of Man prohibit deity-granted spellcasting. In the US, civilian ownership of firearms is very high, but even in some parts of the US it is illegal (or practically so). Even in the parts of the country that embrace firearms, the majority of people hide the fact that they are armed. As someone who regularly openly carries a firearm, I can tell you from personal experience that the majority of people won't notice or care that you have a gun. However, the ones who do care, care very deeply and aren't afraid to vocalize their support or derision. If a spellcaster walks through your typical marketplace, most people won't notice or care that they have a spell component pouch. But those who do care probably care very strongly. Magic has probably affected them very deeply, for better or worse. There are probably large portions of the population who would support measures to curb magic use. None of that is likely to come up in your typical PFS scenario, so it gets glossed over.
As for casting magic at or around NPCs, lets continue the gun analogy. If I see you from across the room pull a gun and point it at me, I'm not likely to stop and think "Is that a tazer? Is that loaded? Are they blanks, or rubber bullets, or live rounds?" No. I'm going to take cover and draw my own gun before I take the time to ask you your intentions. Spellcasting is the same way. At best, casting magic without warning is rude, akin to fondling your gun in the checkout line. At worst, even casting detect magic could be enough to put you into initiative in an otherwise friendly encounter.
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And when the fireball takes out everyone in the tavern, the lone survivor says "He told me he was casting a spell to clean up a spill!"
Cars are more dangerous than guns. More people die every day from automobile accidents than from gunfire. Cars are considered "safe" because we use them every day. Spells aren't "safe". They're flashy, intrusive, destructive things that only certain people can understand or use. That's not something the average commoner is going to feel "safe" around, even though nothing happened "this time". Your assumption that the average Joe will be okay with random spellcasting doesn't take into account basic human nature, the fear of the unknown. Look at all the people in the world who don't trust modern technology, modern medicine, modern science... And yet you continue to think that magic would just be commonly accepted? Please.