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Considering if I will ever play PFS again...
What does a module have to do with PFS? If you judge an entire campaign over one module that wasn't even written for PFS, then you're probably right in not playing PFS.
That said, there's plenty of 1st level effects that are save or die and can even come down to a single die roll. Fail a save vs. sleep or color spray? One bull rush off a cliff. Often one crit from a x3 weapon will kill a 1st level character. There's tons of stuff.
See a wight? Run away.
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That said, there's plenty of 1st level effects that are save or die and can even come down to a single die roll. Fail a save vs. sleep or color spray? One bull rush off a cliff. Often one crit from a x3 weapon will kill a 1st level character. There's tons of stuff.
*rolls sense motive to see if the Baird is doing proactive public relations before The Confirmation hits*
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Remember that Thornkeep is a 1-2 adventure; so you conceivably could have been second level. When I ran Thornkeep at my location, I started things off with running first steps 1-3 over two weeks. In fact, if you really want the Thornkeep experience, you HAVE to start at level two; otherwise you can't play them all the way through without gaining another level elsewhere before Part 4.
Finally, there are several other safeguards there: a dc 13 religion check will identify the creature, it only has a +4 to hit so it has 50% or less chance to hit frontliners, and the adventure just gave your group 4 shortbows so you could fight the thing at range.
Really, I always thought the encounter right after that one to be far more egregious.
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It appears there are only so many level 1-2 adventures to go around, and I only have about 6 character concepts that I want to play. Would have liked to see this one last a few levels...
Good news!
All Tier 1 scenarios and Tier 1–2 sanctioned modules are available for unlimited replay with a 1st-level character for credit.
So you can play Accursed Halls again (if you'd ever want to) with as many level 1 characters as you'd like. Tier 1 Scenarios include (and I believe are currently limited to) First Steps: Part 1 and the upcoming The Confirmation.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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gamerdork,
You are not the first person to register this complaint. When I ask more questions, I often find out that the GMs in question decided to run things curiously.
The citizens in the town of Thornkeep, particularly the Blue Basilisks and the goblin ghetto, should be giving you some suspicions about what's happened to the NPC in question. The encounter should start with...
Your GM may have run things differently, and may have had good reason to do so. (Maybe she decided your party was making itself obvious before the encounter.)
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As Chris mentioned, that encounter starts with the <redacted> in a bad position, tactically, and I have seen where the <redacted> did what Chris said, and got wiped before it got to make any attacks.
I have GMed this scenario 3 times, I think, and it has only hit one PC, who happened to be second level, once, in all those runs.
Crit happens, and there are two other encounters that can also prove deadly in there.
And the fungal crickets are worse, especially if the GM plays them as opening combat with a leaping charge into combat. They can eassily take down a PC apiece each round.
I always recommend that new PCs take a good look at some of the alchemical items available to them.
Tanglefoot bags and alchemical fire have saved many of my PCs, and my players PCs when I GM.
gamerdor, while your PCs killer is dangerous, a tanglefoot bag or two would at least slow it down a bit, and have a good chance of glueing it to the floor, allowing ranged attacks to kill it.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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At the start of our version, our intrepid group of newb adventurers *started* at the entrance to the stairs down. No town encounters at all, no gather info or hearing any rumors, except for the fact that they call it "Halls Under the Hill" or similar.
(nods) I've seen Thornkeep run at several conventions, and what you're describing is very common. It's done "to cut down the time" and try to power through the first level in under 4 hours.
There are trade-offs. Walking into that encounter without a clue is one of them.
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More a symptom of having a 4-hour time slot for what would optimally take 6+ hours to get through. Oddly, playing PFS online has been a far more RP-intensive experience than playing it tabletop has been, because of the lack of a hard time limit.
ETA: Or, what Jiggy just said while I was writing this.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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You should give a randonm non-PbP online game a try and report back what you experienced personally.
I've played some online games of that nature before. It was pretty much exactly like playing in-person, except that a strong wind near my apartment could make me suddenly teleport away from the table.
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So, I am in the midst of playing Thornkeep: the Accursed Halls. Or more correctly, I was. Unfortunately, I was playing a level one character. I am torn between being pissed and not being pissed. As you can probably guess, the ** spoiler omitted ** hit my character and that was all she wrote. I don't mind being challenged, role-playing or roll-playing wise, but wth?
Game on, I guess :(
yes, that encounter is harsh - but IMO there is a far harsher foe in that game that many parties have 0 chance against - at least one could hit the critter in question. That encounter (for that matter, that game) teaches:
* that perhaps knowledge skills are not only for the wizard or bard
* the value of reach weapons
* that not only the archer should have a ranged weapon
* that sometimes it is better to let the enemy come to you
* why one might want to play with a summoner (or druid)
* the value of team work to focus fire.
* splash weapons can be your friend
I don't like it especially because it creates more deadly monsters the party must deal with - but I understand many GMs don't take that next step. On the other hand this is a one-slot game that makes a 1st level surviving character a 2nd level character. And a 2nd level character a 3rd level one.
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You think that's bad?
Fortunately these things are not insurmountable, just absurdly dangerous. The good news is that Pathfinder Society play is, as a general rule of thumb, very forgiving until you're out of the low tier games. It just so happens that early Thornkeep is an exception to this rule, as are only a handful of other low level modules/scenarios. You may find it more to your liking if you give it another chance. If I were you, I would request my DM to run something like We Be Goblins after an experience like that. It would definitely provide the humor needed to offset being smote by a wight.
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You should always be ready to fight an incorporeal creature. Its not like an oil of magic weapon is costly.
Also wights are CR 3. Don't hate the players (society GM) - hate the game designers who thought that was a good idea.
Energy drain has no initial save? WTF
That is correct. It does not. Bit more of a problem than you originally realized, no? :P Talk about a pain.
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Wait, did I just read that someone shoehorned the Accursed Halls into a 4 hour slot? For shame sir for shame. Its rushed stuff like this that turns people off PFS and kills characters.
If this is going to be run at a con it needs to be run over 2 slots, not sped into one to get more games at a con.
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You actually can file grievances if you feel a matter is worth doing so. Simply find out the identity of your local venture officers and contact one of them. Failing that, you could always contact Mike Brock directly. They are usually really good at over turning rulings that they decide were unwarranted or unjust.
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(nods) I've seen Thornkeep run at several conventions, and what you're describing is very common. It's done "to cut down the time" and try to power through the first level in under 4 hours.There are trade-offs. Walking into that encounter without a clue is one of them.
If you need to run it in 4-hours - something I'm supposed to do this weekend - you incorporate some of the town found information into the "Pathfinder" briefing. I have also found having a physical balcony appliance speeds up that encounter as who can see whom and placement is clear.
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You actually can file grievances if you feel a matter is worth doing so. Simply find out the identity of your local venture officers and contact one of them. Failing that, you could always contact Mike Brock directly. They are usually really good at over turning rulings that they decide were unwarranted or unjust.
For online play, the VC is Joe Caubo.
To be honest, Accursed Halls, IMO, is one of the real tests of good GMing.
Simply forgetting to mention two dead goblins can make an already ugly encounter even uglier, since it removes a vital clue. And the bodies are not included in the box text for the room.
Leaping charge gives them four attacks at +8, IIRC, for 1d6+4 each. Other than a full-out tank, there is a good chance that they will hit with 2 attacks from that, pretty much knocking out a PC apiece.
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@Kinevon:
The wight only sucks if the players, for some reason, have it fight in the idol room with the unhallow.
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At least you get a save for that.
Aparently I was thinking about con damage not drain. You don't necessarly always get a save. This little beastie (who could show up in apl 8-9) put the fear of GMs into my Kingmaker group a few years back. That rend with no save combined with a fair amount of damage is a lethal combo.
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Con damage doesn't one shot you.
Depends on the source, the amount, and the build.
I have had one player running a level 1 Witch with an 8 Con. Other than a Stirge, I suspect any good Con poison or Con damage would have killed him. If I hadn't one-shotted him with a crit from a waterbug he had no call to be next to when he tried spellcasting.
Yeah, d6 class, Con penalty, FCB to skill, IIRC. No Toughness or anything, so about as fragile as a waterglass. 5 hit points, 7 Con, 12 damage, well within non-crit range for so many enemies, is instant death.
Ugly, just ugly. I roll in the open, so no way to softball that one. :(
Oh, well, I think even a Stirge might be able to one-shot a Con-dump Elf Wizard. Con 5, d6, 3 hit points, 8 to death. I sure hope I never run across a player who wants to run that choice.
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Calybdos1, I think THORNKEEP is a fantastic adventure to introduce people to the Pathfinder RPG, to Golarion, and to the River Kingdoms. The town is rich in character, and there are over a dozen little sub-plots and conspiracies going on, many of which involve short quests to help beginning characters build their battle skills.
Also, bear in mind that, as it's intended to be run, THORNKEEP doesn't use Pathfinder Society experience. By the time characters get to the serious threats, in either passageway, they should already have earned enough experience to reach second level.
Running THORNKEEP as a PFS module, using PFS rules, is really not the best introduction for brand new players. Skipping the whole village and starting at the doorway to the Accursed Halls is particularly bad. Playing under that structure doesn't let players know that, at any point, they can take accumulated treasure and go shopping among the black markets of Thornkeep. (There's a tremendous difference between the capabilities of a 150-gp-and-a-mule beginning character and a 1st-level character who has already cashed in several gems for better armor, potions, and masterwork weapons.