Warpriest Discussion


Class Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

MrSin wrote:

No, because its made up. I am being honest. Sacred Weapon in the docutment only works with the weapon you chose for focus weapon(which was chosen for you.) So there really is a +5 enhancement you don't get because you chose to use another weapon.

Because suggestions made in the playtest that don't agree with your argument are off the table...

Careful, someone might accuse you of trying to take over the discussion...


CAn we agree that we need a dev input about this?

WIll be the favored weapon thing be jeeped or not?

Hopefully we get an answer before the poor Chris lock the thread.

Liberty's Edge

Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.

Mechanics - flavor!.


Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.

I could definitely get behind this - or even make it an archetype akin to the bladebound magus.


ciretose wrote:
Why would the default not be using the weapon favored by the deity? It is literally the weapon favored by the deity.

Those sacrilege paladins of Irori/Abadar that are more worried about eficientely kill a demons instead of honoring the favored weapon of their god.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:

CAn we agree that we need a dev input about this?

WIll be the favored weapon thing be jeeped or not?

Hopefully we get an answer before the poor Chris lock the thread.

"Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game."


Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.

That is the same thing ciretose has purposed but flipped. Either way its a feat being used to get what you want. Not a big deal either way.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Why would the default not be using the weapon favored by the deity? It is literally the weapon favored by the deity.
Those sacrilege paladins of Irori/Abadar that are more worried about eficientely kill a demons instead of honoring the favored weapon of their god.

Fortunately, the class is designed to make the favored weapon the best at doing that.

Problem solved!

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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It's not as if the dagger is a bad weapon. It averages two points less damage than a longsword, but it has a decent crit range, and you can throw it.

Is the problem just that people think you look silly marching off to war with knives? That never stopped rogues or wizards before.


@Ciretose

This is a setting agnostic product and you're proposing to shackle it to something setting specific. Most real gods do not have favored weapons. Some that appear to, such as Ares and Athena, are artifacts of there basically being only one weapon in their culture. Real martial gods from cultures that used various weapons have multiple weapons.

You cannot make a class reliant on a favored weapon without it breaking in any setting with realistic pantheons.

It's a line in a table that's usually assigned completely arbitrarily. It only exists because of Thor. Trying to make it important is like trying to make a PC class built around profession skills. They're just empty filler in almost all cases.


ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:

CAn we agree that we need a dev input about this?

WIll be the favored weapon thing be jeeped or not?

Hopefully we get an answer before the poor Chris lock the thread.

"Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game."

Fair enough. Seems like the dev have made their mind.


ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.

Mechanics - flavor!.

I've tried GURPS.

Tell me why you think allowing more variety of character concepts is a bad thing?

Answer me that question straight and I'd appreciate it.


ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Why would the default not be using the weapon favored by the deity? It is literally the weapon favored by the deity.
Those sacrilege paladins of Irori/Abadar that are more worried about eficientely kill a demons instead of honoring the favored weapon of their god.

Fortunately, the class is designed to make the favored weapon the best at doing that.

Problem solved!

No it is do not, at least not yet. We have yet to see what are the changes to the class.


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Atarlost wrote:

@Ciretose

This is a setting agnostic product and you're proposing to shackle it to something setting specific. Most real gods do not have favored weapons. Some that appear to, such as Ares and Athena, are artifacts of there basically being only one weapon in their culture. Real martial gods from cultures that used various weapons have multiple weapons.

You cannot make a class reliant on a favored weapon without it breaking in any setting with realistic pantheons.

It's a line in a table that's usually assigned completely arbitrarily. It only exists because of Thor. Trying to make it important is like trying to make a PC class built around profession skills. They're just empty filler in almost all cases.

Focus Weapon: At 1st level, a warpriest receives Weapon

Focus as a bonus feat, selecting the favored weapon of his
deity. If the warpriest does not have a deity, he can select
any simple weapon.

The class currently has a way for godless or neutral settings to handle this.


Brain in a Jar wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.
That is the same thing ciretose has purposed but flipped. Either way its a feat being used to get what you want. Not a big deal either way.

Its actually completely different. Ciretose proposes a feat tax to put you on par with the Favored Weapon which might be worse naturally already.

This thought makes your Favored Weapon BETTER, but doesn't shackle you to it to begin with.


Atarlost wrote:

@Ciretose

This is a setting agnostic product and you're proposing to shackle it to something setting specific. Most real gods do not have favored weapons. Some that appear to, such as Ares and Athena, are artifacts of there basically being only one weapon in their culture. Real martial gods from cultures that used various weapons have multiple weapons.

You cannot make a class reliant on a favored weapon without it breaking in any setting with realistic pantheons.

It's a line in a table that's usually assigned completely arbitrarily. It only exists because of Thor. Trying to make it important is like trying to make a PC class built around profession skills. They're just empty filler in almost all cases.

Actually the class has a mechanism for that, you can select any simple weapon...


Scavion wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.
That is the same thing ciretose has purposed but flipped. Either way its a feat being used to get what you want. Not a big deal either way.

Its actually completely different. Ciretose proposes a feat tax to put you on par with the Favored Weapon which might be worse naturally already.

This thought makes your Favored Weapon BETTER, but doesn't shackle you to it to begin with.

My apologies. I misread that thank you.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:

It's not as if the dagger is a bad weapon. It averages two points less damage than a longsword, but it has a decent crit range, and you can throw it.

Is the problem just that people think you look silly marching off to war with knives? That never stopped rogues or wizards before.

Well, for starters you can't effectively two-hand a dagger for increased damage, since it's a light weapon.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Scavion wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.

Mechanics - flavor!.

I've tried GURPS.

Tell me why you think allowing more variety of character concepts is a bad thing?

Answer me that question straight and I'd appreciate it.

I'm advocating for variety. If favored weapons aren't favored, the warpriest weapons selection will be the same as every other class with martial weapon proficiency in the game.

That is the opposite of adding more variety to the table.

The reason most of us prefer Pathfinder to GURPS is that the flavor of pathfinder is more interesting. Deities having favored weapons is part of that flavor.

The fact that this weapon favoring has not been incorporated well before is exactly the reason why I'm excited about them finally doing it right.

Asking someone to take a feat when they choose not to use the weapon the god they choose favor is not an undo burden.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

One option is saying: You can play with the normal legos, but if you want any other toy in the toybox you have to give me five dollars first.

The other option is saying: You can play with anything in the toybox, but if you pay me five dollars I'll go buy you a lego pirate ship and you can play with that too.

My five year old nephew would definitely say there's a difference between the two.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ciretose wrote:

I'm advocating for variety. If favored weapons aren't favored, the warpriest weapons selection will be the same as every other class with martial weapon proficiency in the game.

No you do not. You are advocating for homogeniety.

Liberty's Edge

Scavion wrote:
Brain in a Jar wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.
That is the same thing ciretose has purposed but flipped. Either way its a feat being used to get what you want. Not a big deal either way.

Its actually completely different. Ciretose proposes a feat tax to put you on par with the Favored Weapon which might be worse naturally already.

This thought makes your Favored Weapon BETTER, but doesn't shackle you to it to begin with.

It instead puts a feat tax on deciding to use it...

Shadow Lodge

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:

CAn we agree that we need a dev input about this?

WIll be the favored weapon thing be jeeped or not?

Hopefully we get an answer before the poor Chris lock the thread.

"Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game."
Fair enough. Seems like the dev have made their mind.

I'm pretty sure that is meaning that they will add more options to apply to the existing (single) favored weapon rather than having a list of favored weapons for each deity.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I'm advocating for variety. If favored weapons aren't favored, the warpriest weapons selection will be the same as every other class with martial weapon proficiency in the game.

No you do not. You are advocating for homogeniety.

We disagree. I think if the favored weapon is not given favored status, the Warpriest will look like every other class in the game.

That is not interesting to me.

But I'm sure you and I will agree somewhere else Nico, we've often disagreed agreeably.


Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:

CAn we agree that we need a dev input about this?

WIll be the favored weapon thing be jeeped or not?

Hopefully we get an answer before the poor Chris lock the thread.

"Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game."
Fair enough. Seems like the dev have made their mind.

Althought, I wonder if we will have that warpriest of erastil will be much better than warpiesrt of abadar cause longbow vs crossbow and some "options ahve to be better than othets".

Hopefully no.


ciretose wrote:
It instead puts a feat tax on deciding to use it...

How is it a feat tax? You're still proficient and perfectly entitled to using it without the feat, the feat would give a bonus if you choose to pick it up.

Personally I'm envisioning something akin to the orc weapon expertise feat, but with bonuses that are somewhat more attractive.


DM Beckett wrote:
Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:

CAn we agree that we need a dev input about this?

WIll be the favored weapon thing be jeeped or not?

Hopefully we get an answer before the poor Chris lock the thread.

"Finally we get to the warpriest. We are looking at strengthening the role of this class by taking it a bit away from the cleric's position. While we want the class to be among the best at healing and casting spells on itself and we are investigating a mechanic to let it do just that (probably in place of channel energy). We are also looking into a new class feature that allows the warpriest to be an effective combatant with the favored weapon of its deity, regardless of what weapon is favored by their deity. Look for increased damage and additional effects depending on the type of weapon and its role in the game."
Fair enough. Seems like the dev have made their mind.
I'm pretty sure that is meaning that they will add more options to apply to the existing (single) favored weapon rather than having a list of favored weapons for each deity.

I...think like you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Unclejunzo wrote:
Well, since we're on the favored weapon thing, again, would it be okay if they opened up the sacred weapon to all proficient weapons and added a feat that gave you a bonus when using sacred weapon with your deity's favored weapon?
I'd dig that. Options, not limitations.

Mechanics - flavor!.

I've tried GURPS.

Tell me why you think allowing more variety of character concepts is a bad thing?

Answer me that question straight and I'd appreciate it.

I'm advocating for variety. If favored weapons aren't favored, the warpriest weapons selection will be the same as every other class with martial weapon proficiency in the game.

That is the opposite of adding more variety to the table.

The reason most of us prefer Pathfinder to GURPS is that the flavor of pathfinder is more interesting. Deities having favored weapons is part of that flavor.

The fact that this weapon favoring has not been incorporated well before is exactly the reason why I'm excited about them finally doing it right.

Asking someone to take a feat when they choose not to use the weapon the god they choose favor is not an undo burden.

How so? The way I see it, opening the options lets our Warpriests function at range, and against different types of DR. Not to mention you could do a psuedo-combat maneuver builds with some weaponry.

Most Deities use melee weapons so what happens when you have to fight a flying enemy? My idea lets our Warpriest bust out a bow, power it up because I should hope our Deity wants their Soldier of Faith to be victorious in battle and shoot the bugger down.

And with the feat proposed earlier, the Warpriest will be better in melee with his Favored Weapon always.


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ciretose wrote:
Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:

I'm advocating for variety. If favored weapons aren't favored, the warpriest weapons selection will be the same as every other class with martial weapon proficiency in the game.

No you do not. You are advocating for homogeniety.

We disagree. I think if the favored weapon is not given favored status, the Warpriest will look like every other class in the game.

That is not interesting to me.

But I'm sure you and I will agree somewhere else Nico, we've often disagreed agreeably.

Just because most players MIGHT choose one specific weapon if you give them options, that doesn't mean others won't choose a flail or a scythe over a greatsword or flachion. this is not the SAT's and people should not be penalized for choosing the 'wrong' weapon, wether the reasons are mechanical or for flavor.

Liberty's Edge

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Kudaku wrote:
ciretose wrote:
It instead puts a feat tax on deciding to use it...
How is it a feat tax? You're still proficient and perfectly entitled to using it without the feat, the feat would give a bonus if you choose to pick it up.

I said the same thing and was told that they were handicapped.

If I have to take a feat to get a bonus to the weapon that my god favors, how is that not a feat tax if having to take a feat to get a bonus to a weapon my god does not favor isn't a feat tax.

Here is why I see happening if all weapons are equal. All warpriests will look similar. They will all use similar weapons.

However if the favored weapon is the focus, a warpriest of Gorum is very different than a warpriest of Cayden.

The thing I hate most about the Magus is that they all more or less look the same. It is boring. There is "a" build, more or less.

If each deity has a different favored weapon, each deities war priest will have a different look and feel, in a real sense.

That is much more interesting to me.

Regardless, it seems to be settled at this point so I personally would be more interested in discussing how to implement it well.


Somehow I still miss why I should play this class over a pure cleric or a cleric with some fighter levels.
Most of the blessings are standard actions which, in my opinion are just wasted actions (at least in combat) so they are only useful if you know a fight is coming. And they seem weaker than domains (which, most likely is as intended) but I do not feel that sacred weapon, sacred armor and the bonus feats make up for the restrictions and abilities lost. And you have to use your deities favored weapon.

As is I would always choose a fighter 1/3 cleric 2/3 over this. At level 19 (6 fighter 13 cleric) he casts better, channels better, has higher BAB, more HP. Granted he has less feats and different special abilities. But all in all I think the old way in just stronger.

For comparison of special abilities:
Fighter cleric above: 2 domains at level 13 (meaning 2 powers each, with most), armor training, weapon training, bravery

For the warpriest: 2 blassing with two powers each, sacred weapon, sacred armor

Only if you really play to level 20 and the level 20 power comes into play the warpriest gets perhaps a little ahead or just less behind.

BTW: The warpriest doesn't have spontanous casting on his table but in the text. Should be added to the table (if this has been noticed already please ignore)

Liberty's Edge

Scavion wrote:


How so? The way I see it, opening the options lets our Warpriests function at range, and against different types of DR. Not to mention you could do a psuedo-combat maneuver builds with some weaponry.

Most Deities use melee weapons so what happens when you have to fight a flying enemy? My idea lets our Warpriest bust out a bow, power it up because I should hope our Deity wants their Soldier of Faith to be victorious in battle and shoot the bugger down.

And with the feat proposed earlier, the Warpriest will be better in melee with his Favored Weapon always.

1. If only they had 6 levels of spells.

2. How do fighters and Barbarians do it?

And the Warpriest can bust out a bow. In fact a longbow, since they have martial weapon proficiency. And they can even use spells to buff themselves when they do.

Each Deity will have a very different type of warpriest (or not if the player wants to spend a feat because they really want a specific weapon with a specific deity).

That will be a much more diverse set of characters that show up at a table.


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ciretose wrote:


Here is why I see happening if all weapons are equal. All warpriests will look similar. They will all use similar weapons.

However if the favored weapon is the focus, a warpriest of Gorum is very different than a warpriest of Cayden.

On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.

I think I can say with relative certainty is that more folks want to play a character that works rather than a character that sounds cool.

As for why your way is a feat tax and not the other way around is because Sacred Weapon is the scaling bonus that allows our Warpriest to keep up in BAB relatively. So without taking your feat to allow us to choose a different weapon we will be behind. With it the other way around we're able to differentiate the Favored Weapon by allowing it to have a slightly greater bonus, to make up for any natural weaknesses.

No real point in discussing how it will be implemented when they probably have an idea in mind already since they're not discussing it here.


ciretose wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
ciretose wrote:
It instead puts a feat tax on deciding to use it...
How is it a feat tax? You're still proficient and perfectly entitled to using it without the feat, the feat would give a bonus if you choose to pick it up.

I said the same thing and was told that they were handicapped.

If I have to take a feat to get a bonus to the weapon that my god favors, how is that not a feat tax if having to take a feat to get a bonus to a weapon my god does not favor isn't a feat tax.

Here is why I see happening if all weapons are equal. All warpriests will look similar. They will all use similar weapons.

However if the favored weapon is the focus, a warpriest of Gorum is very different than a warpriest of Cayden.

The thing I hate most about the Magus is that they all more or less look the same. It is boring. There is "a" build, more or less.

If each deity has a different favored weapon, each deities war priest will have a different look and feel, in a real sense.

That is much more interesting to me.

Regardless, it seems to be settled at this point so I personally would be more interested in discussing how to implement it well.

Most magus's tend to go for scimitars because of it's crit range. The more crit range a weapon has the more powerful its spell combat will be.

Sacred weapon only gives a flat bonus, so if they made it so that sacred weapon applied to any weapon the warpreist was proficient in then that bonus wouldn't be any different if i was a gorum wapriest with a greatsword or a dagger.


ciretose wrote:


2. How do fighters and Barbarians do it?

With full BAB. Fighter tend to put his second weapon training into bows, and palain can use emite evil with a bow.


Because one punishes you for not using a single weapon and the other one gives you the option to be rewarded for investing in your deity's imagery. If the feat for using your favored weapon is attractive enough, it's not actually a feat tax - it's an advantage you get over other weapon wielders.

Conversely, if the only thing the feat offers is "a way to get to use my class feature on an equal footing to that other warpriest who picked a different deity" then it's very much a feat tax.

It's the difference between having the option to get a cheese burger menu, or whatever else you want; and being charged for a cheeseburger menu even though what you really wanted was chicken nuggets. Sure, you can get the nuggets but you're still paying for the cheeseburger too.

Finally, I agree that magi are tricky, though I'd argue there are at least two (and very different) popular magi builds: dervish dance and strength-focused.

Liberty's Edge

Scavion wrote:


On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.

And in what way is that a problem? Is it not reasonable that the combat focused gods will have more Warpriests, while the other classes would have more clerics?

And again, this is assuming the bonuses are flat and not more weapon specific, which seems to be the design goal (and the goal I advocated for)

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:


2. How do fighters and Barbarians do it?
With full BAB. Fighter tend to put his second weapon training into bows, and palain can use emite evil with a bow.

And see point 1.


ciretose wrote:
Kudaku wrote:
ciretose wrote:
It instead puts a feat tax on deciding to use it...
How is it a feat tax? You're still proficient and perfectly entitled to using it without the feat, the feat would give a bonus if you choose to pick it up.

I said the same thing and was told that they were handicapped.

If I have to take a feat to get a bonus to the weapon that my god favors, how is that not a feat tax if having to take a feat to get a bonus to a weapon my god does not favor isn't a feat tax.

I thought Kudaku said it pretty well(quote below). You can already use your favored weapon, you even get bonuses with it already! However you can't use sacred weapon with anything else, and that +5 enhancement is pretty snazzy and one of your few class features. So everyone who wants to use anything other than the favored weapon has to pay out a feat. If you have a feat that specifically gives you a bonus to your favored weapon, which you already get bonuses with, then you can spend one of your feats, which you have a lot of, to get even more bonuses out of it! Using your favored weapon looks pretty darn awesome even if you do have other choices. The revision may have a whole new look at the favored/sacred weapon thing though, so we have to wait and see that.

Kudaku wrote:

One option is saying: You can play with the normal legos, but if you want any other toy in the toybox you have to give me five dollars first.

The other option is saying: You can play with anything in the toybox, but if you pay me five dollars I'll go buy you a lego pirate ship and you can play with that too.

My five year old nephew would definitely say there's a difference between the two.


ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:


On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.
And in what way is that a problem? ...

Homogneity.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Has anything been said/done/mentioned about making the warpriest domain-thingees stack with magic item bonuses? We had a new player in an 11th level campaign join and create a warpriest, and he had a hard time finding good domain-thingees that would fit the campaign and do anything - the domain-thingees for the most on-point deities granted enhancement bonuses which didn't stack with the magic items in the party's possession.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ross Byers wrote:

It's not as if the dagger is a bad weapon. It averages two points less damage than a longsword, but it has a decent crit range, and you can throw it.

Is the problem just that people think you look silly marching off to war with knives? That never stopped rogues or wizards before.

For me, the image of a guy in full plate with a shield trying to use a dagger as a primary weapon just doesn't do it. And some of the choices are very restrictive. Scythes lock you into two-handed combat, and starknives don't have much to offer if you don't throw them. And I literally cannot imagine what you could give a club (a non-throwing, bludgeoning weapon with no crit upgrades) other than simply homogenizing the damage for all weapons.


Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:


On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.
And in what way is that a problem? ...
Homogneity.

Its a weird thing. If a warpriest has to use his clerics favored weapon, then a battlefield between Gorum and Ravogug will be Greataxe vs. Greatsword. Pretty much every single guy will be using a greataxe or a greatsword and that will tell you which side they're on. That's pretty homogenous, thematic, but homogenous. If on the other hand you aren't forced to use the favored weapon but still get bonuses with it, you'll see a variety of things, but you'll likely see a majority of them using greatswords and greataxes. Likely if you gave no bonuses to either you'd still see a lot of greatswords and greataxes just because its a favored weapon, but in that case you'd also see a bit of variety. The most homogenous is the first one, but this is just between two factions with little mixing it up, so its a bit skewed.


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ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:


On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.

And in what way is that a problem? Is it not reasonable that the combat focused gods will have more Warpriests, while the other classes would have more clerics?

And again, this is assuming the bonuses are flat and not more weapon specific, which seems to be the design goal (and the goal I advocated for)

It's the same problem as with the magus you mentioned earlier - A LOT of characters are going to look the same.

There's also the fact that apparently the goddess of Beauty, Art and Music will have roughly as many warpriests as Iomedae and Gorum, since Shelyn has the only two-handed reach weapon on the core deity list.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:


On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.
And in what way is that a problem? ...
Homogneity.

Only if they mess up the mechanics they said they are intending to add.

Did you look at my fix suggestion? my fix suggestion.

Liberty's Edge

Kudaku wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:


On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.

And in what way is that a problem? Is it not reasonable that the combat focused gods will have more Warpriests, while the other classes would have more clerics?

And again, this is assuming the bonuses are flat and not more weapon specific, which seems to be the design goal (and the goal I advocated for)

It's the same problem as with the magus you mentioned earlier - A LOT of characters are going to look the same.

There's also the fact that apparently the goddess of Beauty, art and music will have roughly as many warpriests as Iomedae, since Shelyn has the only two-handed reach weapon on the core deity list.

How many people play Glaive characters now? Really....

The Magus literally has one way to play. One handed melee.

Meh.

1. Deity popularity matters. If you are a follower and flavor matters at all, flavor matters.

2. Part of the stated goal is to make different weapons useful in different ways.

If I were in your camp, I would be looking for ways to do that rather than complaining about actually the flavor of the deity you choose to worship be part of the class. That ship has sailed.

I offered a solution in this thread and created a separate thread. I'm not saying it is the best or only solution, but at this point...that decision is made.


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ciretose wrote:
Scavion wrote:


On the flip side, there will be MORE people playing Warpriests of Gorum and Iomedae.

And in what way is that a problem? Is it not reasonable that the combat focused gods will have more Warpriests, while the other classes would have more clerics?

The point is to make it so that Warpriests of all gods are VIABLE/Effective. No one is saying that from in in world population perspective, yeah there will most likely be more of those Warpriests.

The problem is that if you tie the Favored Weapon so heavily to the class itself, people are going to choose their deity on the basis of their weapon. Which shouldn't be a design goal. You should choose your deity based on the beliefs of the deity.

And now we've come full circle.

I wanted them to drop the Favored Weapon necessity because it requires much less word count than making each favored weapon effective. So now we'll pay for it in less content in other portions of the book.

Liberty's Edge

@Scavion -

1. Doing a point or two less damage per round doesn't make you not viable.

2. I offered suggestions on how to get the weapons closer to par within the framework of the classes. If that is really a concern, I suggest you do the same.


I notice that the devs say they're going to make the class about fighting and healing, possibly removing the Channel Energy ability. That's a neat development. I wonder what they have in mind? If they're making the class more WIS based, here's the changes I'd make to my proposed alterations.

Favoured Weapon

Spoiler:

At first level, a Warpriest becomes proficient in her deity's favoured weapon if she isn't already. She gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls with that weapon. She may use this weapon (and only this weapon) as a divine focus. If the Warpriest does not revere a deity, instead she chooses a simple weapon to receive this bonus (including the ability to use it as a divine focus.)
Beginning at 5th level and every four levels thereafter, the Warpriest may choose any weapon with which she is proficient. She gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls with that weapon. In addition, increase the bonus on attack rolls by any previously favored weapon by one.
Favoured weapons may be held or wielded as a somatic component to cast spells. Harmless spells that are cast in this way that target the Warpriest treat their caster level as 1 higher, even if other allies are the target of that spell.

Energy Burst

Spoiler:

When a Warpriest answers her call to arms, her god rewards her devotion in battle. Whenever a Warpriest that can spontaneously cast Cure spells hits an opponent with one of her favoured weapons, as a swift action the Warpriest may force that opponent to make a Will save (DC 10 + Wisdom modifier + Half her warpriest level). Channel resistance applies to this saving throw. If that creature fails, the Warpriest and each ally within 10 feet of the creature struck recovers 1 HP at the end of the Warpriest's turn. Those creatures continue gaining HP at the end of the Warpriest's turn for a number of rounds equal to the Warpriest's Wisdom modifier, whether or not they are still within 10 feet of the original target. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack and no more than one creature can be affected by Energy Burst at any one time.
If any Undead opponents are within the range of the energy burst, those creatures each take 1 damage of positive energy at the same time, with no save. If the creature that failed the save is undead, it is also affected.
For Warpriests that spontateously cast Inflict spells, instead each living opponent within 10 feet of the creature struck that fails its save (including that creature if it's living) take 1 point of negative energy damage at the end of the Warpriest's turn with no save. Undead within range regain 1 hit point, including the Warpriest if she is undead.
Treat this life gain or damage as though it were positive or negative channeled energy respectively.
This healing or damage increases by 1 at 5th level and every four levels thereafter. (To a maximum of 5 at 7th level, matching the progression of the favored weapon bonus for the deity's favoured weapon.)
Depending on the Warpreist's god and at GM discression, this ability may not function on certain creatures, such as Good outsiders for good aligned creatures or animals for those who follow the Animal domain.

With the mock-up of my previous version, this leaves no dead levels (assuming you include gaining a level of spells as not being a dead level) until the Warpriest hits 19th level. This would be an opportune time to have a semi-capstone like the fighter...

Energy Blast

Spoiler:

At 19th level, the Warpriest may use her Energy Burst as a free action. She may have more than one Energy Burst ability active at one time, but not for the same creature struck.

With an ability like this, you are simultaneously encouraged to use your deity's favoured weapon, heal in combat, and REALLY get in there and fight. Swift action might not be necessary. This gives the Warpriest UNLIMITED daily healing so long as they are in combat.
It also makes undead Warpreists a seriously savage opponent and one that should strike fear into many a gaming table.

Those of you who don't like the favoured weapon tie in probably won't like it much, although while this model allows a Warpriest of Nethys to use a Greataxe as favoured starting from 5th, you won't get your bonus to hit. But you WILL always get the same amount of Energy Burst.

Possible feats include...

Spoiler:

Improved Energy Burst
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus with your deity's favoured weapon, Energy Burst class feature
Benefit: Increase the burst area of your Energy Burst ability by 10'.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, to a maximum range of 40'.

Variable Energy Burst
Prerequisite: Energy Burst class feature, Favoured Weapon of a neither good nor evil deity, Knowledge (Religion) 5 Ranks
Benefit: When you prepare spells, you may change whether or not your Energy Burst class features bursts as positive or negative energy. Your ability to cast cure or inflict spells does not change. If your burst is different from the type of spell you cast spontaneously, reduce the amount of damage healed or dealt by 1.


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ciretose wrote:

@Scavion -

1. Doing a point or two less damage per round doesn't make you not viable.

2. I offered suggestions on how to get the weapons closer to par within the framework of the classes. If that is really a concern, I suggest you do the same.

1. Yes, but lacking the proper damage type to punch through DR and losing a class feature because you use a sidearm to do it will.

2. My suggestion was to not use the Favored Weapon mechanic at all as its shallow even in the flavor department. I get my deity flavor from the Blessings/Domains. I'm sure they are already putting together how they're going to make each Favored Weapon distinct so I'll be content just waiting.

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