Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the Warpriest. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
**OFFICIAL UPDATE**
The following updates apply to the Warpriest.
• The warpriest gains proficiency in his deity's favored weapon, in addition to all simple and martial weapons.
Quick question...how often can the Warpriest's capstone be used, and what action is it to activate?
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The setting of the allocation of bonuses for Sacred Weapon seems a bit limiting. Was there a belief during internal playtests that it is too powerful to be able to tune your weapon to the enemies you're facing?
I have a suspicion that if this stands, most Warpriests will be Good as Holy is a good all-around weapon buff that will rarely be unused. Perhaps the bonus should be static per encounter instead? I can't see anyone choosing Flaming, Frost or Shock unless they know they will be facing only enemies that don't resist that element.
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Big issue: Warpriest does NOT get proficiency with his or her deity's favored weapon. This can cause issues with their other abilities if the priest worships Calistria (whip) or any other deity that favors an exotic weapon (Ragathiel, Ackekek, etc). This should be revised.
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Big issue: Warpriest does NOT get proficiency with his or her deity's favored weapon. This can cause issues with their other abilities if the priest worships Calistria (whip) or any other deity that favors an exotic weapon (Ragathiel, Ackekek, etc). This should be revised.
True, or maybe they can gain EWP instead of WF at first level for the Deities with Exotic weapons.
Though I would just prefer Proficiency with Deities Favored Weapon.
EDIT: Updated in the sticky post.—SKR
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I'm disappointed by it not being a Full BAB class, to complete the "paladin for all alignments" image I was hoping for with the warpriest, but I'm still taking it all in.
Gotta say, the Battle Companions in the Alignment Blessings seem really appealing.
I would really recommend not listing specific colors in the Alignment Strike blessings though, and just leave that flavor entirely up to the players and GM. I mean, why wouldn't a warpriest of the Black Butterfly have a black weapon? Or one of Nurgal having a white or golden one? This can actually be a problem for PFS players that aren't allowed any reskinning at all.
The setting of the allocation of bonuses for Sacred Weapon seems a bit limiting. Was there a belief during internal playtests that it is too powerful to be able to tune your weapon to the enemies you're facing?
I have a suspicion that if this stands, most Warpriests will be Good as Holy is a good all-around weapon buff that will rarely be unused. Perhaps the bonus should be static per encounter instead? I can't see anyone choosing Flaming, Frost or Shock unless they know they will be facing only enemies that don't resist that element.
It is set at the first encounter each day. When you are attacked by treants, I expect people will turn on Flaming.
Also, I agree that they should gain their favoured deity's weapon. This seems strange in its absence.
I would really recommend not listing specific colors in the Alignment Strike blessings though, and just leave that flavor entirely up to the players and GM. I mean, why wouldn't a warpriest of the Black Butterfly have a black weapon? Or one of Nurgal having a white or golden one? This can actually be a problem for PFS players that aren't allowed any reskinning at all.
I feel that PFS has gotten a little tooooo restrictive in that department. Sadly, it is what it is.
As to the aura colors, these are already laid out in various spells from the core rulebook.
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I'm disappointed by it not being a Full BAB class, to complete the "paladin for all alignments" image I was hoping for with the warpriest, but I'm still taking it all in.
I too was saddened by this, but I believe they took the 'power' of full BAB and moved it into bonus feats and the sacred weapon thing. I'm okay with this - it basically made that power flexible.
I would really recommend not listing specific colors in the Alignment Strike blessings though, and just leave that flavor entirely up to the players and GM. I mean, why wouldn't a warpriest of the Black Butterfly have a black weapon? Or one of Nurgal having a white or golden one? This can actually be a problem for PFS players that aren't allowed any reskinning at all.
I agree with this.
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The thing I wasn't too fond of in the Warpriest was that it feels a bit like they're forced to use their deities favored weapon. So if you want to play a mounted knight to Iomedae, an archer devoted to any deity other than Erastil... The limiting nature of the class is a bit of an immediate turn off for me. At the very least I'd like to see an archetype that allows you to choose your own weapon.
That being said, I do like the class. It took me a minute to realize that armor and weapon training were hidden within the warpriest.
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I have a comment about a possible balance problem. I actually really like the Cleric character (although I really miss the ability to have Heavy Armor out of the gate) and I was very much looking forward to seeing what the Warpriest offered.
The Cleric needs to really balance between 2 abilities to take strong advantage of its casting ability (Wisdom and Charisma). The Warpriest unfortunately needs to spread that even more thinly with the inclusion of Strength.
I noticed that the Blessings have a variable advantage based on Wisdom. Would it be possible to do the same with the Warpriest's channeling ability? Basically, is it feasible to take Charisma out as one of those sort-of-necessary abilities for the Warpriest and just let them use their Wisdom modifier?
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What I expected, but not what I was hoping for. Unlike all of the other classes it feels pretty much exactly like a Cleric/Fighter multiclass than a class of its own (it has Fighter Bonus Feats, but less of them! Domains, but less benefit, and less of them! And so on.). Of all the classes I'd say this one needs some work, because it's kinda boring overall.
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I'm... sort of confused as to what the point of this class is, actually.
If you increased the number of Blessing uses/day (maybe level+3 per day instead of 1/2?), allowed them to choose three Blessings instead of two, gave them full BAB/d10 HD, and dropped the casting entirely, this could be a pretty neat class with a fairly unique flavour to it... but as it is it's just a worse version of the Cleric with a bunch of minor bonuses and buffs that it doesn't need because it has six levels of casting.
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I apologize if this has been brought up before, but consider adding the Aura ability to the warpriest. Additionally, it might be helpful if warpriest levels counted as fighter (or fighter -3) for the purposes of Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
I apologize if this has been brought up before, but consider adding the Aura ability to the warpriest. Additionally, it might be helpful if warpriest levels counted as fighter (or fighter -3) for the purposes of Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
I thought hybrid classes counted as their base classes for that stuff? Maybe not?
The thing I wasn't too fond of in the Warpriest was that it feels a bit like they're forced to use their deities favored weapon. So if you want to play a mounted knight to Iomedae, an archer devoted to any deity other than Erastil... The limiting nature of the class is a bit of an immediate turn off for me. At the very least I'd like to see an archetype that allows you to choose your own weapon.
That being said, I do like the class. It took me a minute to realize that armor and weapon training were hidden within the warpriest.
Oh gosh, how did I skim how dependant they were on favoured weapons. I remembered I read it somewhere, but I thought Sacred Weapon could apply to anything.
Suddenly, any god with a dagger as a favoured weapon gets no warpriests (maybe this is actually appropriate, since that seems like a god with a bunch of rogues... we totally need a rogue/cleric class btw). Personally, I dislike this restriction also. Doubly so if they don't get proficiency with the weapon (and what happens when the favoured weapon is unarmed? Hell, how do I rule this where my setting has a god with a favoured weapon of siege catapult. Why did I ever think that was a good idea.)
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Suddenly, any god with a dagger as a favoured weapon gets no warpriests (maybe this is actually appropriate, since that seems like a god with a bunch of rogues... we totally need a rogue/cleric class btw). Personally, I dislike this restriction also. Doubly so if they don't get proficiency with the weapon (and what happens when the favoured weapon is unarmed? Hell, how do I rule this where my setting has a god with a favoured weapon of siege catapult. Why did I ever think that was a good idea.)
It's not like the dagger is a bad weapon, exactly. It does 2 points of damage less, on average, than a longsword, but it can be thrown and finessed.
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The setting of the allocation of bonuses for Sacred Weapon seems a bit limiting. Was there a belief during internal playtests that it is too powerful to be able to tune your weapon to the enemies you're facing?
I have a suspicion that if this stands, most Warpriests will be Good as Holy is a good all-around weapon buff that will rarely be unused. Perhaps the bonus should be static per encounter instead? I can't see anyone choosing Flaming, Frost or Shock unless they know they will be facing only enemies that don't resist that element.
It is set at the first encounter each day. When you are attacked by treants, I expect people will turn on Flaming.
Also, I agree that they should gain their favoured deity's weapon. This seems strange in its absence.
And when the next encounter is Devils or Fire Elementals? Too bad too sad Warpriest?
I hate that it is near to useless to play a character using a weapon other than their deities favorite weapon.
Dwarven Warpriest with an axe doesn't have a decent build with this restriction in play. Not many deities with an axe as a favored weapon, and even the few options out there greatly limit what the role playing would be like if you stick to the nature of the deity.
It seems to be unnecessary limiting, almost railroading...
If you go digging in Golarion, there actually are many gods that can help fit your bill. There is a Dwarven god who's favored weapon is the battle axe (he is the offensive counterpart to Torag's defense), as well as an Emphireal Lord with the Greataxe.
Yeah, it is a little rail-roady, but otherwise people just cherry-pick their powers and weapons and we have a 3.5 "clerics outshine all fighters" moment again.
Warpriest should get Full BAB or automatic proficiency with favored weapon. I could see it as an acceptable 'feat tax' to take EWP in the favored weapon, given that you do get a bonus feat. Full BAB would allow you to take power attack too, which is really a necessity to do decent melee damage. However, I could see waiting for level three if you get proficiency in a decent weapon.
EDIT: Updated in the sticky post.—SKR
The weapon and armor blessings lasting a round per level is really limiting.
Either allow them to be recast X times per day or bring it up to minutes per level.
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Of all the classes offered this is the one I was most disappointed by (other than no pure shapeshifter being considered).
I think the problem is that they just smooshed fighter and cleric together and offered little new to the game. Blessing are just domain abilities with a different name and we have seen the sacred weapon/armor on paladin and magus already.
I think they need to redo the class in the following way. Use the magus and give is spell combat but for buff spells rather than touch offensive spells. Basically I can two weapon fight casting a buff spell on the fighter or a heal on the wizard and still attack with my weapon in the same round but at -2. Give him the cleric spell list, but limit his spell combat ability to spells that affect himself or allies and not enemies. This makes him very different from the magus playstyle and introducing a very interesting frontline fighter type that buffs/fights at the same time.
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Out of all the classes this one probably seems the least inspired. There are a couple of issues:
Channel Energy: This seems completely unnecessary. Channel Energy already heals or damages a very small amount per level, and having it even lower than the cleric's pretty much means it will only be used out of combat. It's yet another resource to keep track of (this class has a lot of that...), and it spreads the stats way too thin, especially considering their terrible skill point amount. It also doesn't help differentiate them from their two closest thematic roles: cleric and paladin, since both those classes get the channel. Channel Smite could be useful with this, I suppose, but I'd rather have a class feature resembling that instead of the whole channel package.
Weapon proficiency: They should be proficient in their deity's weapon by default. Maybe they should get proficiency OR weapon focus, depending on if they're already proficient.
Blessings: Just seem too thematically close to domains. Actually, overall the class is look way more similar to cleric than fighter. I do like how the duration-based ones last for a minute flat - that really helps out at level 1. Maybe all of them that affect allies should be a swift action if used on yourself? This would really get closer to the combat theme, instead of making the character primarily a buffing class (c'mon, you're a WARpriest!)
Sacred Weapon/Armor: Eh... not too sure what to think on this one. This is an ability that's been done plenty of times before. It's a bit weird that the weapon is rounds/level while the armor is minutes/level. I think I'd prefer a more flashy or dynamic buff, rather than just giving the weapons or armor certain properties. Maybe a bonus that lasts for a round, or a defensive boost you can use as an immediate action? Right now it's just a bit boring, and piling on the buffs and resources this class will be keeping track of.
By the way, this is what every Warpriest needs to keep track of:
Spells prepared & spells used
Channel Energy uses
Blessing uses
Sacred Weapon uses
Sacred Armor uses
I feel like some of this should be cut down to reduce book-keeping headaches.
I think Blessing are deliberately close to domains, just like Bloodrager bloodlines resemble Sorcerer bloodlines.
I think Blessing are deliberately close to domains, just like Bloodrager bloodlines resemble Sorcerer bloodlines.
Feels like it. Sadly, and maybe ironically, the difference means that the Warpriest is unable to take the feat Warrior Priest.
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There's a glaring problem with the warpriest that hasn't been addressed yet, and that is - what does it do that inquisitor does not? The spellcasting is prepared rather than spontaneous and therefore more flexible, but if an inquisitor wants to go full-on beatstick with divine power and righteous might in his spells known, he does just as well as the warpriest with better skills and class features on top. Stack up a couple judgments and bane and you're rocking just as much attack bonus and damage or more without wanting Charisma as badly on top of it. Admittedly the inquisitor is sacrificing some of the class's utility/skillmonkey potential to do this, but it can be done and he'd still have more utility than the warpriest he's compared against.
There are some pretty simple fixes to this - adjusting the warpriest's spell list to get the combat buffs earlier would do it (though Sean already said you want to avoid this in the Hunter thread) or making warpriest levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats like the swashbuckler does for swashbuckler levels so the 'priest can get Weapon Specialization and company going for him. (His base attack bonus isn't an obstacle for this, since as written the feats that require fighter levels to qualify just require those levels, not the BAB that comes with them.) The latter solution both goes better with the design team's desire to not take up book space with more spell lists and serves to move the warpriest closer to "combat specialist" and away from "cleric lite," which it seems to me should be a design goal here.
The thing I wasn't too fond of in the Warpriest was that it feels a bit like they're forced to use their deities favored weapon. So if you want to play a mounted knight to Iomedae, an archer devoted to any deity other than Erastil... The limiting nature of the class is a bit of an immediate turn off for me. At the very least I'd like to see an archetype that allows you to choose your own weapon.
This was my reaction as well. My biggest hope for the Warpriest was that it would let me escape the weapon limitations I had been dealing with on my Inquisitor. Sure, the Warpriest is proficient with all martial weapons, but I lose a significant amount of power by not using my Deity's weapon. I want to play a front line fighter who is a priest of Desna, and it's surprisingly difficult to do well.
As a side note, how do the focus weapon and Sacred weapon abilities work for a Warpriest who doesn't worship a specific god?
As a side note, how do the focus weapon and Sacred weapon abilities work for a Warpriest who doesn't worship a specific god?
You chose a simple weapon to gain Weapon Focus with, and Sacred Weapon keys off of this choice.
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Another thing, while it gets bonus feats, due to the 3/4 BaB it's still going to have trouble keeping up.
As is, I more tempted to play this as a Cleric, simply because it can use it's open Class Features on themselves unlike most Domains. The bad is that it doesn't switch up any of the Clerics spell slot levels, which is an issue with the game itself, not the class, but combining that with the lack of a bit of Domain spell variation, the spellcasting I think will look very bland. IMO, it doesn't really scream Warpriest as much as Cleric failing to take back a bit from the Inquisitor.
I was not looking forward to this class much (felt it was pretty much covered by other classes), but I have to say that I am finding myself kind of liking it. It seems different enough from the cleric and paladin to stand in its own niche, and it doesn't seem quite as hybrid-y as some of the other classes here do.
I sort of wish the Sacred Armor and Sacred Weapon abilities were tied into the Channel Energy ability, though; maybe a Channeling Pool instead, wherein he can use that Channel Energy ability for different things, but has to use it more sparingly than a full cleric or paladin as a result?
You chose a simple weapon to gain Weapon Focus with, and Sacred Weapon keys off of this choice.
As a side note, how do the focus weapon and Sacred weapon abilities work for a Warpriest who doesn't worship a specific god?
It's official: I'm blind. Thanks.
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The setting of the allocation of bonuses for Sacred Weapon seems a bit limiting. Was there a belief during internal playtests that it is too powerful to be able to tune your weapon to the enemies you're facing?
A good point. Perhaps it should be more like the Magus, wherein the bonus can be changed with each new use of the ability, rather than once per day?
It's official: I'm blind. Thanks.You chose a simple weapon to gain Weapon Focus with, and Sacred Weapon keys off of this choice.
As a side note, how do the focus weapon and Sacred weapon abilities work for a Warpriest who doesn't worship a specific god?
No problem. Us colossal, high CR reptilian monsters need to stick together
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I'm... sort of confused as to what the point of this class is, actually.
If you increased the number of Blessing uses/day (maybe level+3 per day instead of 1/2?), allowed them to choose three Blessings instead of two, gave them full BAB/d10 HD, and dropped the casting entirely, this could be a pretty neat class with a fairly unique flavour to it... but as it is it's just a worse version of the Cleric with a bunch of minor bonuses and buffs that it doesn't need because it has six levels of casting.
All of these things.
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In building our first War Priest, we have come across a couple of small issues:
1) Weapon Proficiency: If you are going to be given Weapon Focus, you should really have the proficiency, as well. Easy to address and fits the class. (EDIT: Updated in the sticky post.—SKR)
2) Combat Feat at first level: MOST of the combat feats you want require +1 BAB. If the class counted it's hit dice as it's BaB that would be very fitting and would make it feel a little more fighter.
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I think this was mentioned earlier in the post, but one of the fixes that Pathfinder did for the paladin was making the spell casting charisma based, so that you didn't have to worry about spreading your main stats between Wisdom, Charisma, Strength, and Constitution. I think this will leave the Warpriest at a distinct disadvantage versus paladin/antipaladin.
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I think this was mentioned earlier in the post, but one of the fixes that Pathfinder did for the paladin was making the spell casting charisma based, so that you didn't have to worry about spreading your main stats between Wisdom, Charisma, Strength, and Constitution. I think this will leave the Warpriest at a distinct disadvantage versus paladin/antipaladin.
Note that the only thing you need Cha for is that Channel, which is no worse than a melee oriented Cleric.
Honestly, I would just get rid of Channel all together for additional combat oriented abilities, sever the CHa requirement entirely.
I think Blessing are deliberately close to domains, just like Bloodrager bloodlines resemble Sorcerer bloodlines.
Right, I realize that. I'm saying I don't want them to be.
Considering the Warpriest's focused weapon and sacred weapon abilities, how do they affect a warpriest of Irori who has unarmed strike as his favored weapon? This seems unclear.
Also, I think it is a real shame that the only two deities with ranged favored weapons, Abadar and Erastil, don't get the Zephyr's Gift ability from the Air Blessing because they don't have the Air Domain (which makes sense, but is still a shame because of what Zephyr's Gift does). I suppose if I want a bow or crossbow wielding warpriest with the Zephyr's Gift and weapon focus for those weapons I will have to create a warpriest who doesn't have a deity. Somehow, that just doesn't seem right, though.
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Since it does not seemed like anyone has talked about it, I wanted to give my thoughts on the Warpriest. When I first heard of the class, I thought of was a cleric that can cast off all those really good personal range boost spells while attacking (Diviner Power, Righteous Might, etc.). Kinda like a divine magus.
My second though was a bit of sadness that the class just uses the first 6 levels of the cleric list. I was expecting it to it's own spell list like the Bard, Magus or Inquisitor.
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Gosh darn it. I want my d10HD and Full BAB.
Other than that, we are good.