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This build seeks to make a Muay Thai fighter that is dangerous and controls whoever their fighting using grapples and trips (clinch and take-downs).
I originally wanted it to be unarmed fighter or brawler, but neither offer the same level of benefits as the lore warden. Brawler loses weapon training, which means that the gloves of dueling make up for the bonus unarmed damage. Unarmed fighter is nice with more tricks, but the raw power of extra cmb from lore warden and free combat expertise is more worth it.
25 point buy Human
24 Str (+2 racial, +1 8th, +1 12th, +4 strength belt)
18 Dex (4th level bonus, +2 belt)
14 Con
12 Wis
13 int
7 chr
Level 13: 1 maneuver master monk/ 12 lore warden fighter
Traits:
Bred for War: Bonus to CMB
Heavy Hitter: +1 damage to unarmed strikes
Feats:
1. Improved Unarmed Strike (monk), improved trip (monk bonus feat), two weapon fighting (1st level), double slice (human bonus feat)
2. Improved grapple (fighter bonus feat)
3. Power attack (fighter bonus), dragon style (3rd level)
4.
5. dragon ferocity (5th level), weapon specialization (fighter)
6. weapon training (unarmed)
7. Improved two weapon fighting (7th level + belt to get 17 dex), Weapon focus (fighter bonus)
8.
9. Greater trip (fighter), greater grapple (9th level)
10. weapon training
11. greater weapon focus, felling smash
12.
13. vicious stomp, greater weapon specialization
equipment:
Monk robes: up unarmed strike damage
Brawler enchant: +2 attack/ +2 damage unarmed
dueling gloves: +2 attack/ +2 damage to weapon training
Haste Boots: +1 attack, extra attack
amulet of mighty fists: +3 attack/damage
+4 strength/+2 dex belt:
The basics of this build are simple. I run up to an opponent and trip them the first round. Later on you can run up trip them and make 2 attacks (greater trip and vicious stomp). After the first round I make a full attack and then attempt a grapple. The best part is that I can now pretty much lockdown an opponent, and on my turn drop the grapple as a free action, full attack and grapple again (maneuver master monk)
CMB bonus trip/grapple = 12 (fighter) + 1 (monk) + 6 (lore warden)+ 2 (weapon focus trip only) + 2 (improved) + 2 (greater) + 1 (bred for war) + 5 (strength)+ 2 (dusty rose prism in wayfinder)= 31 CMB grapple/ 33 CMB trip (-2 if used during full attack)
Attack Bonus: 12 (fighter) + 7 (Strength) + 2 (weapon focus/greater weapon focus) +2 (brawler) + 2 (dueling gloves) + 2 (weapon training) + 3 (amulet of mighty fists)- 2 (twf)+ 1 (haste)-4 (power attack) = 25/25/25/20/20
Damage: 1d8 + 7 (strength) + 3 (dragon ferocity) + 2 (weapon specialization) + 2 (greater weapon specialization) + 3 (amulet of mighty fists) + 2 (dueling gloves) +2 (brawler enchant) + 8 (power attack)+ 1 (heavy hitter) = 1d8 +30 per hit
This build would also benefit greatly from enlarge. It grants an effective +2 to any CMB. My to hit is a little low, but the opponent should be mostly tripped/grappled by then.
Thoughts? comments? room for improvement?
I'd get Stomp sooner, and if you want more control, I'd go down the Turtle Style line instead of Dragon.
Add the connection :
Ki throw and binding throw .
Now you trip and grape in the same round and same action
That's Amazing.
How'd I miss those. Now to just figure out where they'd fit into the build
I'd get Stomp sooner, and if you want more control, I'd go down the Turtle Style line instead of Dragon.
I agree with the vicious stomp... where to fit it in though.
I like the dragon style to keep my damage up since any DR will wreck my damage so every little bit helps. But the extra free grapple attempt is tempting. This build is looking more and more viable though.
You don't need TWF/Double Slice early, because at those levels you can just do a Flurry of Manuevers. So you could put those off.
You can also hold off on Power Attack, since DR won't be a problem early and you might have to-hit troubles with PA and TWFing early on.
The extra attack at full BAB from Stomp is worth the most early on (though it stays good, as long as your opponents don't get too big to trip).
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The only thing I have to add, is that the character should be named Apachai Hopachai.
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The only thing I have to add, is that the character should be named Apachai Hopachai.
You rat bastard this is the only reason I even looked at this thread.
The only thing I have to add, is that the character should be named Apachai Hopachai.
Same here and I'm totally gonna do it.
might go martial artist instead so I can take some barbarian levels for rage - I think it would work for Apachai's combat mode
Ok, Apahai Hopachai is what his name shall be.
As for feats, here's my updated list.
Feats:
1. Improved Unarmed Strike (monk), improved trip (monk bonus feat), two weapon fighting (1st level), vicious stomp
2. Improved grapple (fighter bonus feat), ki throw
3. binding throw
4.
5. Weapon focus (fighter bonus), weapon specialization (fighter)
6. weapon training (unarmed)
7. combat reflexes, Greater trip
8.
9. improved two weapon fighting, (fighter), power attack (9th level)
10. weapon training
11. greater weapon focus, dragon style
12.
13. dragon ferocity, greater weapon specialization
I pushed out felling smash all together (will pick up probably at level 15, for opponents I can trip but not grapple). I added vicious stomp right at level 1, and moved dragon style to much later levels. I also had to push out double slice as well
So at level 1 I can run up trip someone and then get a free aoo.
By level 5 in 1 round I can trip an opponent, then throw them to an adjacent square, get 1 aoo from vicious stomp, and get a free grapple.
By level 7 without a full attack, I can move in, trip an opponenet get 2 aoo, move them to an adjacent square, and get a free grapple. Not bad for a round without a full attack.
The tactics for rounds with a foe adjacent are even more interesting. If my opponent is standing, I'll get to make a full attack, then trip, then get 2 free aoo, then move them to an adjacent square, and finally make a grapple check (how's that for efficiency in a round). Also thanks to 666bender I'll probably take penetrating strike at level 15 to overcome DR).
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Are you running this character from 1st level, or from high levels?
At high levels, you'll find many creatures immune to both the trip AND the grapple (too many opponents fly, which you can get over with a carpet of flying but you still can't trip them... and many of them keep Freedom of Movement up on a semi-regular basis).
With that in mind, I'd recommend not "overfocusing" on trip (you should find that Fury's fall is an unnecessary add). Instead, get Dirty Trick / Quick Dirty Trick... blinding opponents is REALLY good. It's usually impossible, but with the Manuever Master bonus attack you can do it quickly.
I also note a lack of carpet of flying... that should be FAR before Monk's robes. Yes, casters can cast fly on you, but they really shouldn't have to by this level (really by level 9 most grapplers should have carpets of flying). You also don't want to delay init.
Finally, it's a minor note, but if you go fighter first instead of monk, you net 2 extra HP in the long run.
The only thing I have to add, is that the character should be named Apachai Hopachai.
You rat bastard this is the only reason I even looked at this thread.
Same here and I'm totally gonna do it.
might go martial artist instead so I can take some barbarian levels for rage - I think it would work for Apachai's combat mode
good to see other folks read HSDK.
Are you running this character from 1st level, or from high levels?
At high levels, you'll find many creatures immune to both the trip AND the grapple (too many opponents fly, which you can get over with a carpet of flying but you still can't trip them... and many of them keep Freedom of Movement up on a semi-regular basis).
With that in mind, I'd recommend not "overfocusing" on trip (you should find that Fury's fall is an unnecessary add). Instead, get Dirty Trick / Quick Dirty Trick... blinding opponents is REALLY good. It's usually impossible, but with the Manuever Master bonus attack you can do it quickly.
I also note a lack of carpet of flying... that should be FAR before Monk's robes. Yes, casters can cast fly on you, but they really shouldn't have to by this level (really by level 9 most grapplers should have carpets of flying). You also don't want to delay init.
Finally, it's a minor note, but if you go fighter first instead of monk, you net 2 extra HP in the long run.
This character would start from level 3 onward.
you make multiple good points. I don't have fury's fall in the build, but I could definitely worry less about felling smash and instead pick up dirty trick, quick dirty trick by level 15.
Also I have to remember to pick up the flying carpet, which does make a ton of sense.
I thought there was an faq post that allowed things like gloves of dueling to work with archetype abilities that were nearly functionally identical to the original. I would search for it but I'm stuck with only my phone for access right now, which makes it difficult.
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And the dirty trick can end boss fights pretty quickly. With Dirty Trick / Quick Dirty trick as a manuever master, you can leave them Sickened + Blind (and for good measure tripped and grappled if they have that).
I also recommend blind-fighting; more fights take place in magical darkness or against Invisible / Displaced opponents than you might think. The Improved/Greater aren't necessary, but I've only had it for 2 modules (I got it @ level 9) and in both of them I actually used Blind-Fighting against at least one opponent.
A +4 Str / +2 Dex belt isn't technically legal. You can have a +2 Dex Ioun Stone to meet the requirement.
Magic items, in order of priority:
*Red Ioun stone in wayfinder (+1 AC, +2 to CMD and CMD)
*+1 Mithril Brawling Chain Shirt (+5 AC, +2 to CMB, +2 to unarmed damage)
*+2 Str Belt
*Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 Atk, which adds +1 to CMBs too).
And the dirty trick can end boss fights pretty quickly. With Dirty Trick / Quick Dirty trick as a manuever master, you can leave them Sickened + Blind (and for good measure tripped and grappled if they have that).
I also recommend blind-fighting; more fights take place in magical darkness or against Invisible / Displaced opponents than you might think. The Improved/Greater aren't necessary, but I've only had it for 2 modules (I got it @ level 9) and in both of them I actually used Blind-Fighting against at least one opponent.
A +4 Str / +2 Dex belt isn't technically legal. You can have a +2 Dex Ioun Stone to meet the requirement.
Magic items, in order of priority:
*Red Ioun stone in wayfinder (+1 AC, +2 to CMD and CMD)
*+1 Mithril Brawling Chain Shirt (+5 AC, +2 to CMB, +2 to unarmed damage)
*+2 Str Belt
*Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 Atk, which adds +1 to CMBs too).
So If I'm understanding this right with quick dirty trick added in I can run up to an opponent, trip them, which provokes so that i can then make a dirty trick to blind them , use ki throw to re-position them, make an attack off of vicious stomp, and finally grapple them.
All that will remove their dex bonus (if higher then 14) otherwise put their dex in the negatives, subtract 6 from their AC, and give me concealment, and finally subract 6 from their attack roll. They also shouldn't be able to overcome all of these debuff's in 1 round so I can continue to apply them every round.
Meaning they're now prone, grappled, blind, and re-positioned. This seems like a solid win use of a turn (especially since I don't need a full attack to get this all off). Then in subsequent rounds I can use dirty trick to add sickened, full attack again, and re-grapple them.
I'll definitively need to rely on my caster to remove freedom of movement from people, but I feel like this build has some really fun potential.
With all that in mind, I'm thinking I can get rid of the greater weapon focus/specialization to pick up the dirty trick line. the extra debuff's seem to mean to not use.
I thought there was an faq post that allowed things like gloves of dueling to work with archetype abilities that were nearly functionally identical to the original. I would search for it but I'm stuck with only my phone for access right now, which makes it difficult.
I'm interested in this as well.
I thought there was an faq post that allowed things like gloves of dueling to work with archetype abilities that were nearly functionally identical to the original. I would search for it but I'm stuck with only my phone for access right now, which makes it difficult.I'm interested in this as well.
agreed, if that's a thing can someone who finds it link it?
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qto
Although I'd have to look more closely at the brawler to see if that applies. This is what i remember seeing, though.
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So If I'm understanding this right with quick dirty trick added in I can run up to an opponent, trip them, which provokes so that i can then make a dirty trick to blind them , use ki throw to re-position them, make an attack off of vicious stomp, and finally grapple them.All that will remove their dex bonus (if higher then 14) otherwise put their dex in the negatives, subtract 6 from their AC, and give me concealment, and finally subract 6 from their attack roll. They also shouldn't be able to overcome all of these debuff's in 1 round so I can continue to apply them every round.
Meaning they're now prone, grappled, blind, and re-positioned. This seems like a solid win use of a turn (especially since I don't need a full attack to get this all off). Then in subsequent rounds I can use dirty trick to add sickened, full attack again, and re-grapple them.
I'll definitively need to rely on my caster to remove freedom of movement from people, but I feel like this build has some really fun potential.
With all that in mind, I'm thinking I can get rid of the greater weapon...
I'd actually remove the Ki Throw line; or retrain it with Fighter-8. As great of a line as it is, lacking a Ki pool puts a serious hamper on it, since you cannot use it on anything larger than your size (which, at high levels is darn near everything relevant :)).
You cannot reposition, nor can you grapple in the round you move up without it; but being able to trip, blind, stomp for damage is pretty solid. Next round you can sicken, then do a couple of attacks and finish with a grapple if you want.
I also wouldn't bother with the Dragon line by that level; the carpet of flying should take care of difficult-terrain charging, blindfighting takes care of darkness fighting.
If I designed this character, I'd go:
Fighter-1: Combat Reflexes, Vicious Stomp,
Two-weapon fighting
Fighter-2: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Monk-1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Improved Dirty Trick
Fighter-4: Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec
Fighter-5: Style (Monk weapons, which also gives you throwing shiruken just in case).
Fighter-6: Greater Trip, Quick Dirty Trick
Fighter-8: Greater Grapple, Greater Dirty Trick
Rest to flavor over here (I'd go with Blindfighting and then maybe Iron Will)
I'd also carry around a polearm to get AOOs (to trip) anyone that comes at you, and drop it when I am performing a grapple. You can still unarmed while using the polearm.... anyone medium should be on the ground when they try to approach you, and if you fail a trip you can just drop the polearm.
yo, grab the playtest pdf and look at the brawler class. right this instant.
seems pretty much perfect (and a complete shot to the nuts to the monk)
yo, grab the playtest pdf and look at the brawler class. right this instant.
seems pretty much perfect (and a complete shot to the nuts to the monk)
Holy Cow! I'd say I'm pretty much good just taking this class and calling it a night.
wow... the ability to gain combat feats that fit the particular fight is just way too awesome! This seems like a monk style character who is awesome.
Plus knockout blow is actually a great ability. Being able to add strength or dex means you can have an ability that doesn't feel like a waste when boosting it's save DC (I'm looking at you stunning fist).
its a shame that it overshadows the (non-zen archer) monk nigh-completely on the unarmed front. it gets those things that monks always wished for--more flexibility (feats), full BAB, and by extension a decent hit chance (he's the punchline to the cruel joke of the brawling armor enchant) instead of just dancing around pretending to.
Misleading thread title is misleading.
I got all excited when I thought I wasn't the only one who had spent hours and hours working up Hungry Ghost Monk Muay Thai builds. (Grappling/tripping-based? Have you ever done/seen/read about Muay Thai?) Now I see yet another person seduced by the optimization-succubi that are Master of Many Styles and the Lore Warden.
That said, I'm excited to see the brawler when it comes out; maybe it'll address these concerns...
Misleading thread title is misleading.
I got all excited when I thought I wasn't the only one who had spent hours and hours working up Hungry Ghost Monk Muay Thai builds. (Grappling/tripping-based? Have you ever done/seen/read about Muay Thai?) Now I see yet another person seduced by the optimization-succubi that are Master of Many Styles and the Lore Warden.
That said, I'm excited to see the brawler when it comes out; maybe it'll address these concerns...
In fairness, when started this concept I was thinking of someone who mainly used fists, elbows, and kicks that eventually went into a clinch in-between strikes (grappling between round). Over time this idea evolved until you got the build you see. At this point He's more super macho man MMA fighter and less muay thai fighter.
On another tangent, I'm now starting to read HSDK because of how much I'm loving Apachai Hopachai after looking to see what everyone was talking about.
On another tangent, I'm now starting to read HSDK because of how much I'm loving Apachai Hopachai after looking to see what everyone was talking about.
he is the most beautiful thing ever.
he is the most beautiful thing ever.
On another tangent, I'm now starting to read HSDK because of how much I'm loving Apachai Hopachai after looking to see what everyone was talking about.
truly, the greatest. (though my favorite is koetsuji, apachai is a close favorite as well)