If constitution drops from 10 to 9, he loses 10 hp because his constitution modifier changes from +0 to -1.
-1 times 10 levels means losing 10 hp.
That is only true because it is Con Drain. Drain actually affects the stat, while Stat Damage is a separate counter.
Are you saying that Constitution Damage will not reduce your total hit points?
10 HP, because it's not Con damage, it's Con drain.
A single point of Con damage changes his hit points by zero. Ability damage comes in neat little "+/-1 per 2 points of damage" packages. Two (or three) points of Con damage will cost him 10 HP.
But ability drain reduces your ability score for all intents and purposes.
LazarX, that is not what the rules state.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
So, the penalty for 1 point of Con Damage is 0. 0*10HD = 0hp lost.
If the Con damage is 2 points then the penalty is -1. -1*10 = -10 hp.Now, Drain actually does reduce the score and works differently.
Lazar you are wrong. I hate that silly rule, but they are correct per RAW. Now maybe it is just not written well, but I have FAQ'd it more than once with no response from the dev team yet.
I think book keeping is a lot easier if you reduce modifiers every time the ability score drops to an odd number, but the book only cares about the even number of damage you took.
Yeah, you're wrong on this one Lazar.
1 point of ability damage does nothing, because it doesn't actually change the score. It's just a binary "For every 2 points of damage, lose 1 of everything that stat affects".
Drain is the one that works as if you'd actually lost points.
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As a GM last night I ruled the way Wraithstrike did per my reading of RAW.
The every two points of damage line:
"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
Seems to be quite clear.
"Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."
Only clarifies what happens.
Wraithstrike mentioned he has tried to FAQ it but to no avail, so I believe my ruling is correct until the Dev. team changes RAW.
This is like what happens when you loose a level to a drain. A Barbarian with 18 constitution only looses 5 hit points amongst other penalties even though that level granted him 11 or 12 hit points!
Lazar you are wrong. I hate that silly rule, but they are correct per RAW. Now maybe it is just not written well, but I have FAQ'd it more than once with no response from the dev team yet.
I think book keeping is a lot easier if you reduce modifiers every time the ability score drops to an odd number, but the book only cares about the even number of damage you took.
Link for FAQ's sake?
So they changed it from how it worked in 3.5e and now realized it's a bad change?
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LaserX, since you clearly must think you are right and everyone else is wrong, would you do us the favor of explaining how you get from the cited text to your position on ability damage?
By trusting his gut feeling. Why don't you understand?
Link for FAQ's sake?Lazar you are wrong. I hate that silly rule, but they are correct per RAW. Now maybe it is just not written well, but I have FAQ'd it more than once with no response from the dev team yet.
I think book keeping is a lot easier if you reduce modifiers every time the ability score drops to an odd number, but the book only cares about the even number of damage you took.
Link to what the rule? It was quoted by another poster upthread, but if you just want the link for yourself, it is in the glossary, but if you really want me to do it for you, I guess I can be nice...Hold on..
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Well slap my face and add this to the "Things People Don't Know About the Rules" thread.
I'm just as surprised as LazarX.
Although, it is a rather byzantine distinction in the rules that I don't plan on adding to the my list of myriad memorized minutia.
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The recent FAQ:
Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?
Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.
For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.
Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.
A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.
Now, this is an utterly terrible ruling; it answers the question ("why?"), but muddles up the "how" and "what" even more than before.
What it absolutely doesn't do is change the "-1 per full two points of ability damage" rule.
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Did the Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 rules handle this differently? If so was this an intentional change for Pathfinder?
Yes, they tried to simplify it for PF, and ended up with the exact opposite result.
I can't give Lazzy to much of a hard time. I was somewhat stubborn about it also when I first read it simply because I did not like it, and it did not match how I normally did reductions, but did I realized I was doing what I tell others not to do.
Even though I have FAQ'd it, I do think that is the intent. I am just hoping(1% chance) it is not. :)
Yes, they tried to simplify it for PF, and ended up with the exact opposite result.
Did the Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 rules handle this differently? If so was this an intentional change for Pathfinder?
Well I'll give them credit for making a damn good game. It can't be easy trying to appease a hair-splitting, argumentative bunch like us.
Here you go Blahpers. Don't say Wraithstrike never did anything nice for you. Us wraiths have bad reputations. I don't know why.. :)
Ha, thanks, but I should have said "could you link to your FAQ so I can click it too"? Not sure if I saw that one but the ability score penalty subject's been bugging me as well.
Here you go Blahpers. Don't say Wraithstrike never did anything nice for you. Us wraiths have bad reputations. I don't know why.. :)Ha, thanks, but I should have said "could you link to your FAQ so I can click it too"? Not sure if I saw that one but the ability score penalty subject's been bugging me as well.
ok..I will try to find one of them. I did not create a topic for it. It just came up during other discussions.
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Yeah, I wasn't a fan of the Pathfinder rules for Ability Bonuses, Damage and Penalties - but I at least thought I understood how they worked (only take effect in twos, only impact the specific list of items on pages 554 and 555 etc).
But since that FAQ ruling on Ability Bonuses I really don't know how they are supposed to be ruled now, it sounds like they are actually saying there are two sets of rules - the 3.5 rule where the stat actually changes, and a set of Quick Rules that only take effect in twos etc.
And people keep saying Ability Bonuses aren't supposed to affect your Spells per Day etc, but with the new FAQ ruling I cannot see where that is coming from; if a Strength bonus is meant to increase your carrying capacity (not mentioned on page 554/555) why shouldn't an increased Intelligence/Charsima/Wisdom increase your spells per day? Ditto for Channeling per day etc.
Unfortunately the FAQ only addressed Bonuses and not Ability Damage and Penalties - so I am left with the idea that the "Quick Rules" of penalties per two points of ability damage are still in effect.
TBH this whole area is a complete mess IMHO, and I feel Paizo really dropped the ball here - especially because it impacts on so many other areas of the rules. Its another reason why I still prefer 3.5 and refuse to play PF for anything other than PFS.
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Since my game was PFS I wanted to make sure we had the Con damage right and we were playing by RAW.
We have run into wraiths three times over the past two months in my games. We have about 40 active players in Jacksonville FL and I mentioned I would post this for our group.
I'd be curious if LazarX has changed his mind?
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I'd be curious if LazarX has changed his mind?
The thing is, since the FAQ about Ability Bonuses came out, I am more inclined to think LazarX's interpretation might actually be as valid. Although the FAQ didn't talk about Ability Damage or Penalties it does seem to indicate that what is written in the book isn't what was intended, and so if that is the case with Bonuses I can imagine it might be the same with Penalties and Damage.
ok..I will try to find one of them. I did not create a topic for it. It just came up during other discussions.Here you go Blahpers. Don't say Wraithstrike never did anything nice for you. Us wraiths have bad reputations. I don't know why.. :)Ha, thanks, but I should have said "could you link to your FAQ so I can click it too"? Not sure if I saw that one but the ability score penalty subject's been bugging me as well.
Don't sweat it. I'm sure it will come up again.
LazarX, Herolab is written by how many people? Is that even 1% of the readership? Not likely.
Stating that a product written by a few people is a wide spectrum is incorrect. It incorrectly uses the rule and then *distributes* that incorrect rule interpretation to a wide spectrum of the readership. Herolab is not a rules source, d20pfsrd is not a rules source. People should stop citing them as if they were.
Here are the facts:
1) The book states that for every 2 points of damage you suffer a -1 penalty to stats.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
2) The book states that that -1 penalty to stats is multiplied by the number of hit dice you possess to determine current and maximum hit point loss.
In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
3) When you have 1 point of damage you do not yet have a -1 penalty to a stat. Why? because #1 states that you need 2 points to have a -1 penalty. Since you do not have a -1 penalty you do not yet lose hit points due to #2. This logic continues for other odd damage numbers.
4) The Temporary Ability Score FAQ changes how bonuses are ran, but that is a different section and does not apply to the Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain section.
I think LazarX was merely stating that a lot of people use Herolab, so they possibly could be under the impression that Constitution Damage on an even score would result in a loss of hit points, as preposterous as that sounds--heaven forbid.
Also, Herolab has an active community reported glitches and they get fixed pretty quick. So while it's not a rules source, I do check it sometimes when I'm on the fence about something, just like I might consult a friend. It doesn't tell me "this interpretation is correct" but it might tell me "this interpretation has seemed right for herolab's huge user base so far."
Source: PRD
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
It's pretty clear that LazarX is correct. Constitution damage lowers your current and total hit points.
Except for the part where you ignored EXACTLY why that doesn't prove your point, sure.
"In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed."
"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty"
This was posted what, 2 posts above you?
Source: PRD
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.It's pretty clear that LazarX is correct. Constitution damage lowers your current and total hit points.
Whether or not it lowered your hit points was not in question. The question was does ability damage affect you just like drain or does it follow RAW which say -2 reduction=-1 penalty for affected stats.
Grimmy, unfortunately, I have heard from people "but Herolab..." as if it is a rules source. I am not saying it is regularly incorrect. I am saying that players put more trust in it as a rules source than they should and believe it over the actual rules. I find this stance incomprehensible. Herolab is not a rules source, period.
I have to correct characters made with herolab a lot. I use it to make characters quickly then I go back and look for obvious errors. Sometimes it is a programming error, but there have been a few times when they were just reading a rule incorrectly.
PS: I do like the program, but I would not say "because herolab said so".
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I go by an interpretation which seems to be the most consistent with the base rules text.Again, there are no skills associated with Constitution. Con isn't the same kind of ability that STR, Int, and other scores which drive skill rolls, which that FAQ entry is meant to address. And no I don't treat every single 1 point hit as an instant hit point loss, I go by whatever the character's effective Con is. Con 10 character gets hit by 1 pt of con damage, he's treated as a 9, he looses one hit point per die. He gets hit the same way again, he's treated as an 8 he loses no further hitpoints per hit die unless he takes more Con damage.
The problem with how you're ruling is that you consider damage to change a character's "effective" stat. That's not how damage works. Damage applies a stacking negative penalty for every 2 points of damage to that stat - as quoted plenty of times above in the thread. In your circumstance you're ruling constitution damage equal to constitution drain for all purposes other than removal.
Damage is like this:
Character has 10 con. Character gets hit for 1 point of con damage. Character still has 10 con, and 1 point is not enough for any penalty.
Character gets hit for another point of con damage. Character has 2 points of con damage, which equals a -1 penalty, though his con score is still 10. -1 penalty * hit dice = number to subtract from his hitpoints.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
If you only have 1 point of con damage, you have no penalty. 0 * your hit dice = 0.
Except for the part where you ignored EXACTLY why that doesn't prove your point, sure.
"In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed."
"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty"
This was posted what, 2 posts above you?
I missed that post. And I did not ignore something to "prove a point" about Con damage rules. I read the text and drew a conclusion, figuring that if I missed something that someone would correct me in a polite and reasonable manner. Apparently I was mistaken more than once.
Regarding the thread: So far, it parallels the discussions about temporary bonuses. Those were rendered moot by the FAQ. I wonder how ability damage will fare in the long run.