So a PC in a game I'm in is debating Craft Arms and Armor feat. We talked about it and suddenly it dawned on me that this is the kind of feat that a PC will probably never take, because it takes too much time.
At level 5 you could spend 2 days making the fighter's sword +1 without too much hassle. You'd need to be between adventures obviously, but 2 days isn't a problem for most groups. But then things start getting unreasonable. Making a +2 weapon at level 6 takes an entire week, and making a +3 weapon takes closer to 3 weeks. If you plan to make any armor, or enchant more than just a single weapon, be prepared to spend MONTHS doing it. Most campaigns can't wait that long. So it just doesn't seem useful and nobody does it.
So my question to the hive mind is this: how would you house rule this to make a crafty character more useful with minimum impact on game balance?
We use the rule that you can craft at a slower speed while adventuring.
Plus it is up to the group and DM to allow down time every now and then and most games can handle some of it even in a published AP.
Also, if you are improving an existing item the time is lower then building from scratch.
This should probably be in the Houserules forum, since you are asking how to modify a rule, not how a rule actually works.
Keep in mind that adding +5 to the Spellcraft DC lets you cut the time in half. I don't think RAW allows you to stack the acceleration, but we allow it. Another thing we do is that we allow transferring of enhancements from one weapon/armor to another weapon/armor for minimal cost and a day's crafting, provided you make the Spellcraft check. I would have to look at the formula we have set up, because crafters aren't common in my group.
Keep in mind, it also allows you to fix broken magical weapons. That's important.
And, because there are rules for it, it gives a GM a sense of what could be made, and by whom. That's such an improvement over 1e, it's not even funny.
As for PC's, some campaigns move faster than others. In a pirate game, it would probably work fine, it's usually weeks or months between destinations.
You can craft at 1000gp per day while traveling, and you can add a +5 to craft at double the normal speed.
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.
Together that mean he still gets 1000gp worth progress on a 4 hour day, and 2000gp worth of progress on an 8 hour day.
Another thing is that if he upgrades the weapon from a +2 to a +3 he will not have to wait as long. +3(18000)- +2(8000)=10000(10 days) crafting, not 3 weeks.
Having a +1 weapon we a backup to use if while the primary weapon is being crafted is not a bad idea either.
Most adventures have plenty of down-time to craft stuff in. Crafting is almost assumed in some adventures, as well - it's too useful to not have at least a few feats, and if you really have issues, take Leadership and an NPC crafter as your cohort.
One thing I've been using is the ring of sustenance. It allows me to live with only 2 hours of sleep.
The "crafting while traveling " only applying when you have non-consecutive time, I can easily fit 8 hours worth of work after an adventuring day. Dont know if it's strict RAW, but my current GM allows it and it works well.
Another option is to give opportunities for the other PCs to slow down. The downtime rules in Ultimate Campaign provide nice options for everyone to stay busy between adventures. Maybe the fighter wants to open a tavern, the rogue wants to start a Thieves Guild, the druid plans on opening an herbalist's shop, or whatever. This way all the characters have something to do while the crafter makes the magic items.
You can craft at 1000gp per day while traveling, and you can add a +5 to craft at double the normal speed.
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.
Together that mean he still gets 1000gp worth progress on a 4 hour day, and 2000gp worth of progress on an 8 hour day.
Another thing is that if he upgrades the weapon from a +2 to a +3 he will not have to wait as long. +3(18000)- +2(8000)=10000(10 days) crafting, not 3 weeks.
Having a +1 weapon we a backup to use if while the primary weapon is being crafted is not a bad idea either.
I dont think you get to double it twice. the 4 hours work of a traveling day counts as 2 (250GP)and then if you double it counts as 500 gp not as 1000 gp. That is at least how i read it.
And to the OP i think that craft arms and armor is far behind wounderous item but properly better than the other craft feats.
I guess what I really meant was "did I read this rule correctly or miss something, or does this call for a house rule?"
Apparently I did, but the jury is still out. What is the game rule purpose of it taking so much time? Since gold is clearly meant to be the limiting factor and is 100% within the GM's control, why should it also take days and days of game time, or weeks or even months? Compared to other game mechanics the crafting rules seem like they're borrowed from another game. Why not make it a ritual taking 8 hours like a wizard's bonded object, or something along those lines?
I guess maybe now I am getting into the speculative.
I guess what I really meant was "did I read this rule correctly or miss something, or does this call for a house rule?"
Apparently I did, but the jury is still out. What is the game rule purpose of it taking so much time? Since gold is clearly meant to be the limiting factor and is 100% within the GM's control, why should it also take days and days of game time, or weeks or even months? Compared to other game mechanics the crafting rules seem like they're borrowed from another game. Why not make it a ritual taking 8 hours like a wizard's bonded object, or something along those lines?
I guess maybe now I am getting into the speculative.
Gold is not the only factor. Time was an intended factor. That way the noncraftera are not deprived of gold and the GM can still control crafting
I dont think you get to double it twice. the 4 hours work of a traveling day counts as 2 (250GP)and then if you double it counts as 500 gp not as 1000 gp. That is at least how i read it.
And to the OP i think that craft arms and armor is far behind wounderous item but properly better than the other craft feats.
That is incorrect. You are cutting it in half twice. You don't cut time and per hour production. You.work 4hours while adventuring but you get the full benefit of those 4 hours which is 500gp. If you accelerate it then it counts as 1000gp.
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I guess what I really meant was "did I read this rule correctly or miss something, or does this call for a house rule?"
Apparently I did, but the jury is still out. What is the game rule purpose of it taking so much time? Since gold is clearly meant to be the limiting factor and is 100% within the GM's control, why should it also take days and days of game time, or weeks or even months? Compared to other game mechanics the crafting rules seem like they're borrowed from another game. Why not make it a ritual taking 8 hours like a wizard's bonded object, or something along those lines?
I guess maybe now I am getting into the speculative.
Let's see: with 200 days of work you can make the strongest weapon a non mythic mortal can make, one with a total enhancement of +10, starting from scratch.
If you take a +5 to the DC you can cut that down to 100 days.Little more than 3 months.
So, exactly, where is this unbelievable period? People spend more time building a model ship.
I was incorrect. It is only Twitter hours worth of work .
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That is incorrect. You are cutting it in half twice. You don't cut time and per hour production. You.work 4hours while adventuring but you get the full benefit of those 4 hours which is 500gp. If you accelerate it then it counts as 1000gp.I dont think you get to double it twice. the 4 hours work of a traveling day counts as 2 (250GP)and then if you double it counts as 500 gp not as 1000 gp. That is at least how i read it.
And to the OP i think that craft arms and armor is far behind wounderous item but properly better than the other craft feats.
No, you work 4 hours but that count as 2 hours of work:
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work.
That is 250 gp of work done in one day. (2/8 of 1.000 gp)
If (I am not convinced it is possible when crafting this way) you can take the +5 it become 500 gp of work done in one day.I am fairly sure that you can't take "8 hours in the background" during a day. If you take more than the 4 hours cited in the rule above you need to take them in blocks of 4 uninterrupted hours and get full benefit for that stretch of time.
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Well, if your fighter is expecting you to bump his +3 sword to a +5 sword, just lock yourself in the demiplane for a fortnight with a load of ale and whores. Give him the sword back as +3. He'll never know the difference.
I was incorrect. It is only Twitter hours worth of work .
Writing on the Phone?
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I was incorrect. It is only Twitter hours worth of work .Writing on the Phone?
:)
Yeah..I did not even notice that..
Keep in mind at high levels you have Create Greater Demiplane with the fast time trait. Wizards also have the Arcane Builder Arcane Discovery.
In general, I prefer Craft Wondrous Item having actual play experience with using it in a campaign, as there are a number of very useful items you make or upgrade with only 2-3 days of off time. Going from Cloak of Resistance +4 to +5 for example will only take 3 days only two of which need to be off, one can be done adventuring.
The craft skills are most usefull when there is plenty of downtime for the players.
However, when you are the only player that want (requires) downtime, the craft skill can seem to be a bit useless.
but still keep in mind: while all the other player are having a great time, patying and drinking,during the downtime phase, the hardworking crafter gets the prime magic itzms at half price!!
The reasoning behind crafting taking as much time as it does is something that goes back to the "emulating the inspirational materials" thing - the fantasy stories at the appropriate time to be inspiration for the design of the game (D&D in this case) that involved crafting powerful magical items had the creation of those items take considerable amounts of time.
Old-school D&D handled that time by requiring (GM defined) time consuming processes of devising how to craft the item, gathering ingredients, and then performing the taxing process of ritualistically enchanting the item - often while also crafting the item from raw materials.
Then, the 3rd edition design team decided to quantify the costs and time taken while abstracting what exactly the character does during the crafting time... which carried through to 3.5, and Pathfinder beyond.
Oh, I miss those rules! A +1 flaming longsword is far more memorable when the final step requires binding a fire elemental to infuse it with the essence of flame. I've thought about bringing those rules back, possibly in lieu of the +5 DC options.
blaphers: indeed, it has been a long time ago that i've send my player on a quest to find the "essence of space", merely to make a descent bag of holding.
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The rules are not provided only for PCs, but for the game world as a whole.
The design of a given campaign to exclude down time, or to pace events at such a time as to limit down time is a campaign specific decision, not a game based decision. Many feats, class ability choices, and other rules resources can be rendered ineffective based ion campaign specific choices.