I rarely recommend dumping 2 stats unless it is absolutely necessary to the concept.
Also, will saves seem to becoming more common (and more difficult) in recent scenarios that I've run or played. It really bites if the group melee machine suddenly fails a confusion or dominate type spell. Then he attacks the parties squishies by surprise from right next to them.
I saw a game recently where the barbarian failed vs confusion. Round 1 the wizard went to nearly dead level of negative hit points. Round 2 the cleric was unconscious. Then the rogue and bard were left trying to fend off the barbarian and deal with the real enemy. Quickly became a mission fail and 3 out of 5 party members were unconscious. No one was happy with the outcome.
As for feats. Won't you want weapon finesse. If you are dumping wisdom, I strongly recommend iron will and improved iron will.
I would be careful building a character to do nothing but combat in PFS (that's what it sounds like you are doing). Social interaction, investigations, diplomacy, bargaining, etc... are a significant part of most scenarios. I find it boring if I just sit there doing nothing (or trying to do those social things and making the situation worse) for 1/2 the time.
If you're going to be playing a vanilla Magus, you don't need your Int THAT high. Your shocking grasp doesn't require a save, and starting with a 14 will let you easily get your +1 bonus spell at all levels if you keep up with your Int headband. Then you can afford to keep a reasonable Wis.
Although if you're dumping Cha and still have a high Int, you should consider the Student of Philosophy trait. It lets you use Int for Diplomacy to persuade and Bluff to lie, so you can keep good social skills even while dumping Cha to the floor.
Here's a Magus build I've been considering for my next character, although it pretty much depends on a +1 Agile wakizashi, which I won't get until level 6 at the earliest, so it would be a GM credit character.
Tiefling Magus (Kensai)
7/19/14/18/10/5
Traits: Student of Philosophy, Magical Lineage (shocking grasp)
1: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (wakizashi)
2:
3: Magus Arcana (familiar, +4 Init), Piranha Strike
4:
5: Armor of the Pit, Arcane Strike
6: Magus Arcana (Spell Shield)
7: Intensify Spell
8:
9: Weapon Specialization, Magus Arcana (???)
Being a Dervish Dancer magus will make you feat starved. I wouldn't take Arcane Strike as the magus has plenty of ways to use his swift action.
If you're never sure what feat to take, consider Extra Magus Arcana. Most of them are better than feats.
If you're going human, you can get Extra Arcane Pool or get the alternate race trait that lets you get another +2 ability score bonus at the cost of your bonus skill points and bonus feat.
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The real question is why are you trying to build this magus as a fighter?
90% of the feats you are trying to take are sub-optimal choices for any Magi.
Let me say it again (since I say this every time I comment on these kind of threads).
A Magus is a caster who fights, NOT a fighter who casts.
99% of all the damage you do as a Magus comes from your spells so that's where your feat/resource investment should be spent.
You've spent all your feats trying to up your melee damage which is the least important part of a vanilla magus build.
Try again, but this time remember the only thing that sword on your belt is there to do is to increase the hit/crit chance of your spells and you'll have a much more effective Magus to play with.
I like Spell Focus (Evo) and Spell Specialization (Grasp) at lvl 1.
3d6 shocking grasps are nothing to joke about at that level.
Weapon Focus is okay, for a 3/4 BAB class. Specialization happens kinda late, but I like it too.
Intensified Spell becomes a solid choice at lvl 5.
Remember Spell Specialization also applies to SR, essentially giving you Spell Pen for free. That said, Spell Pen is not a bad choice.
I also like spell focus Evo because I like to throw out a fireball every once and a while.
I like Greater Spell Specialization and Spontaneous Metafocus because you can burn any spell slot above a cantrip and rip out an Intensified Shocking Grasp.
Elemental Spell lets you get around resistances. Quicken Spell is Quicken Spell.
Also, for your build you would need to switch around Arcane Strike, Piranha Strike, and Weapon Focus since Arcane Strike is the only one of those feats that does not have a pre-req of BAB +1.
Weapon Focus is a bonus feat for the Kensai Magus.
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The real question is why are you trying to build this magus as a fighter?
90% of the feats you are trying to take are sub-optimal choices for any Magi.Let me say it again (since I say this every time I comment on these kind of threads).
A Magus is a caster who fights, NOT a fighter who casts.
99% of all the damage you do as a Magus comes from your spells so that's where your feat/resource investment should be spent.
You've spent all your feats trying to up your melee damage which is the least important part of a vanilla magus build.Try again, but this time remember the only thing that sword on your belt is there to do is to increase the hit/crit chance of your spells and you'll have a much more effective Magus to play with.
I see what you're saying. I guess Weapon Specialization could be given up, but Weapon Focus will help land the free attack you get from Spellstrike and help confirm the crits to make those Shocking Grasps really hit hard.
So what feats would you take for a magus? I'm assuming you're saying to give up Dervish Dance, Arcane Strike, and Weapon Specialization. I know I'm going to want Intensified Spell, and I'll want it by level 5 at least. what other "magic-boosting" feats do you recommend?
Nope, not good enough. I'd MUCH rather use that feat to pick up the arcane accuracy arcana instead and have it give a bigger, better bonus to ALL the attacks that round instead of a crappy +1 with 1 weapon.
As for what to take instead that depends on what kind of Magus you want to be. Do you want to be the standard crit fisher shocking grasp spammer?
Or do you want to be the sustained blaster/debuffer running with Frostbite/Chill Touch? Or do you want to do the whip wielding battlefield controller ? Or any of a half dozen other roles you can choose.
To build a Magi we kinda need to know what you want to do with the character. Without that we have no recommendations.
If you go finesse rogue, you're basically out of feats until level 7.
Your first level feat needs to go to Weapon Finesse. The third level feat goes to Dervish Dance. Your fifth level feat goes to Intensified Spell
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I think Mathwei is completely wrong - at least about some Magi. My magus is a fighter who casts. Now, 90% of her damage comes from the spells she drops onto her sword every round, but her 18 Dexterity is far more valuable to her than her 16 Intelligence. Every round, she tries as hard as possible to make an attack roll. If I spend an entire round doing nothing but buffing, I feel like my turn has been wasted. She is a beautiful hybrid of the two, not a wizard who can also hit people.
Magi can be built many, many ways. That's one of the best things about them.
If I'm level 3 and cast Chill Touch with 3 mooks in range, do I get to make 3 free melee attacks?
No.
Or do I make 1 the first round and get to hold the charge on the other 2 for future rounds?
Yes.
Note that you don't even need to be in range of them. You can cast Chill Touch, walk 20 feet, and then swing your sword at one of them to discharge your first touch attack.
With spell combat and multiple attacks, you can cast Chill Touch, hit them with your free touch attack (with your sword), then hit them with your sword again (discharging the second charge), then bite them if you have a bite attack (discharging the third charge), all in one round. You can even make one five-foot-step at some point during this action.
I agree with Kydeem. A pre racial spread like below is just as effective without the huge vulnerability to your will save.
STR: 10
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 15
WIS: 12
CHA: 7
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For multi-touch spells like chill touch and frostbite it works like your second example with the exception that you do get the free extra attack on the round you cast it.
These spells routinely work better and do more damage then the shocking burst builds if you have more than 2-3 fights per day since they let you save spell slots for later rounds then the 1 hit per cast spells like shocking grasp.
Magus is a complicated class and requires a firm grasp of your intentions and the rules to play it (more so even then the APG classes)
Also, for your build you would need to switch around Arcane Strike, Piranha Strike, and Weapon Focus since Arcane Strike is the only one of those feats that does not have a pre-req of BAB +1.Weapon Focus is a bonus feat for the Kensai Magus.Gotcha. didn't notice the Kensai part of it the first time.
@master_marshmallow: So you're building a Str-based magus then. what do you do about the lower AC until you get medium armor prof?
@Mathwei: I was thinking the Shocking Grasp crit-fisher spammer, but after reading the descriptions of Frostbite and Chill Touch, I may be changing my mind. I'm not entirely certain how those spells interact with Spellstrike since they both allow for multiple touch attacks. If I'm level 3 and cast Chill Touch with 3 mooks in range, do I get to make 3 free melee attacks? Or do I make 1 the first round and get to hold the charge on the other 2 for future rounds? Do you think you could build out a magus of each type? This is a class I haven't looked at very much, so I don't know a whole lot about them. Heck, I think I've only ever played with 1 magus in my entire time playing PFS.
With the shield spell, my AC is one of the highest in the group at lvl 1.
Levels 2-3 you should be able to afford a wand/scrolls of it. At later levels it won't matter.Good lvl 2 spells to look at are Bladed Dash and Alter self for access to darkvision.
Lvl 3 is all about Haste, Fly, Dispel Magic, and if you have room Fireball.
A Magus is a caster who fights, NOT a fighter who casts.
I really disagree. Magi can be built many ways. They're a fantastic gish class that melds combat and spellcasting cohesively. Heck, they can even be good ranged fighter/casters (arcane accuracy and arcane pool work on ranged weapons). The crit-fishing as a dervish dancer is just the generic build.
As for chill touch, it's just like shocking grasp. The only difference is that you still have charges left after your first successful attack. You can discharge any of those charges on any subsequent successful weapon attack you make. It does not give you extra actions.
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I think Mathwei is completely wrong - at least about some Magi. My magus is a fighter who casts. Now, 90% of her damage comes from the spells she drops onto her sword every round, but her 18 Dexterity is far more valuable to her than her 16 Intelligence. Every round, she tries as hard as possible to make an attack roll. If I spend an entire round doing nothing but buffing, I feel like my turn has been wasted. She is a beautiful hybrid of the two, not a wizard who can also hit people.
Magi can be built many, many ways. That's one of the best things about them.
If you enjoy playing sub-optimally then you are entitled to play however you want. But you are very wrong about that.
Your spells contribute everything to your melee competence and trying to play without "wasting" that turn then you are doing your party no help at all.The Magus is, realistically, just a new fangled spell delivery system. Everything about the class is designed to get a spell effect onto a target in the most efficient manner possible.
Any round you aren't delivering that spell you are contributing about as much to the fight as the rogue is when he's not sneak attacking. ie, not much.
Now best case, BEST case a melee focused dervish dancing vanilla magus
will do 1D6 + Dex Bonus usually means +3 to +5 for a maximum of about 10 pts of damage per hit.
Add to that a lower chance to actually hit then any other melee character in the game (that -2 to hit during spell combat drops your hit chance down to only slightly better then the pregen wizards).
Now you can burn a couple of feats and a bucket of cash to improve this and get that up to about the the same as an equal level Rogue (1D6+12 {max 18} at lvl-3 to hit) but well under where any Fighter is.
Then you throw on your spells, and just a simple unimproved shocking grasp will do 5D6 damage (18pts average) and have a better chance to hit (+3 against metal using targets).
What does all this mean?
If you burn a gob of feats and a bucket of cash you can bump your damage up to max out at what a single 1st level spell will do on average before you spend a seconds work improving it.
If that's good enough for you awesome, I demand more.
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A Magus is a caster who fights, NOT a fighter who casts.I really disagree. Magi can be built many ways. They're a fantastic gish class that melds combat and spellcasting cohesively. Heck, they can even be good ranged fighter/casters (arcane accuracy and arcane pool work on ranged weapons). The crit-fishing as a dervish dancer is just the generic build.
Yup, a magus can be built 10 thousand ways, but no one is saying most of those ways are any good. And a ranged Magus doesn't work.
Yes you can use those two powers on a ranged weapon but as soon as the leave your hand they lose all the bonuses you put on them. PLUS spell combat and spell strike only works with melee weapons so that's useless.Try again.
edit:
@Big daddy,
Crit fishing magi have been done so long there's already a build guide on making them.
Read this and come back if you have any questions.
I forgot to mention.
With all the demons expected in season 5, many people think enemies with high SR will become much more common. So spell penetration (or even greater) may be extremely desirable in many combats.
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@kazaan, you make lots of assumptions that don't actually work. Ray of frost + rime does nothing. Rime spell will only entangle a target for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell used. Ray of frost is zeroth level so entangles the target for zero rounds.
@Bigdaddy, I never said the build wasn't good I said YOUR build wasn't as good.
That one works fine and is easy to understand, it could be better but that would require a level of understanding and rules mastery that you may lack since this is your first experience with a Magus.
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if you used the search feature you would have come across 15 different builds that are stupid OP.
TL;DR?
use the search feature!
Although there are indeed many, many threads on magi, there are also several new spat books that have been released since the inception of the original guide(s).
Bruising Intellect, Pragmatic Activator, Fate's Fortuned, etc. in just the trait category are all very, very powerful on a Magus, and oddly, not covered in articles written before the introduction of said traits.
My personal take on Dex v. Str magus is best summed up in a single question:
Given your build, can you afford the two feat tax in order to achieve Dervish Dance? If yes, then I recommend it highly. If no . . .
Bruising Intellect, Pragmatic Activator, Fate's Fortuned, etc. in just the trait category are all very, very powerful on a Magus, and oddly, not covered in articles written before the introduction of said traits.
What makes Fate's Favored especially powerful on a Magus? Divine casters, sure, but I can't think off the top of my head any common luck bonuses that a Magus gets.
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Bruising Intellect, Pragmatic Activator, Fate's Fortuned, etc. in just the trait category are all very, very powerful on a Magus, and oddly, not covered in articles written before the introduction of said traits.
What makes Fate's Favored especially powerful on a Magus? Divine casters, sure, but I can't think off the top of my head any common luck bonuses that a Magus gets.
None of those traits are actually very good for a magus and most of the other new material only a few spells and magic items actually do anything for them either.
As for the Str vs. Dex that's the wrong question. The real question is how much play time do you expect to spend over 7th level. If you expect to be there for awhile go strength over dex.
Dervish Dance is good, but not my cup of tea. Until 3rd level, you won't be doing much damage unless you use a spell. However, with a high Dexterity, you'll be much safer than a Strength magus. Since you're not totally familiar with the class, I do recommend the dervish dance build. Though I could list off other builds.
A Magus is a caster who fights, NOT a fighter who casts.I really disagree. Magi can be built many ways. They're a fantastic gish class that melds combat and spellcasting cohesively. Heck, they can even be good ranged fighter/casters (arcane accuracy and arcane pool work on ranged weapons). The crit-fishing as a dervish dancer is just the generic build.
Yup, a magus can be built 10 thousand ways, but no one is saying most of those ways are any good. And a ranged Magus doesn't work.
Yes you can use those two powers on a ranged weapon but as soon as the leave your hand they lose all the bonuses you put on them. PLUS spell combat and spell strike only works with melee weapons so that's useless.Try again.
You're being awfully hostile towards someone who simply has a different opinion than you. In this entire thread, you've done nothing but demonize anyone who doesn't share your narrow viewpoint on the class.
Also, arcane pool enchantments don't go away if you let go of a weapon. They remain, but don't function if another person uses the weapon.
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Dervish Dance is good, but not my cup of tea. Until 3rd level, you won't be doing much damage unless you use a spell. However, with a high Dexterity, you'll be much safer than a Strength magus. Since you're not totally familiar with the class, I do recommend the dervish dance build. Though I could list off other builds.
A Magus is a caster who fights, NOT a fighter who casts.I really disagree. Magi can be built many ways. They're a fantastic gish class that melds combat and spellcasting cohesively. Heck, they can even be good ranged fighter/casters (arcane accuracy and arcane pool work on ranged weapons). The crit-fishing as a dervish dancer is just the generic build.
Yup, a magus can be built 10 thousand ways, but no one is saying most of those ways are any good. And a ranged Magus doesn't work.
Yes you can use those two powers on a ranged weapon but as soon as the leave your hand they lose all the bonuses you put on them. PLUS spell combat and spell strike only works with melee weapons so that's useless.Try again.
You're being awfully hostile towards someone who simply has a different opinion than you. In this entire thread, you've done nothing but demonize anyone who doesn't share your narrow viewpoint on the class.
Also, arcane pool enchantments don't go away if you let go of a weapon. They remain, but don't function if another person uses the weapon.
Not hostile just very tired of correcting the same mistakes over and over again.
Now with that said, you are still wrong.At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute.
Once you release that missile weapon you are no longer holding it so it no longer works.
And if you are going to go on to the next argument that usually comes
after this that the weapon is already enchanted and doesn't say anything about letting go then we go to the next rules quote here:
These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
The weapon is no longer wielded by the Magus so these bonuses no longer function.
Finally we just have to go back to the most basic argument out there and that is the specifically created an archetype devoted to ranged combat and the ability to use their magus abilities that way implying the default magus can't.
With all that said I'm comfortable keeping to my original statements.
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The fact that the ability has to specifically point out that it doesn't work if anyone else wields it should logically reinforce that it keeps working if the magus just lets it go. If it'd stop the moment he lets go, that line would be redundant.
Also, the archetype lets it work with spellstrike.
Logic has nothing to do with it these are game rules and they have their own structure to contend with.
As the devs have officially stated most recently HERE
Seriously, this is basic stuff. If there are two interpretations, and one seems too good to be true, go with the other one.
Magic weapons that are awesome when held/wielded by Magi but useless if anyone else tries to use them but keep all their power if the Magi puts them down hits that "too good to be true" button for me but YMMV.
Not hostile just very tired of correcting the same mistakes over and over again.
Now with that said, you are still wrong.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute.Once you release that missile weapon you are no longer holding it so it no longer works.
Hmmm. But if you use arcane pool on a bow, you enhance the bow, and you wield it. So, it transfer his enhancement on the arrows, so ammo are enhanced anyway, or not?
The text simply says the magus needs to hold the weapon to grant the enhancement bonus. Once granted, it remains for the duration or until the magus uses the ability on another weapon. The text does not say anything about the weapon losing the bonus if he lets it go. It just says the bonus "does not function" if someone else wields the weapon. That doesn't mean the bonuses are lost -- they simply don't work for anyone other than the magus. If a magus uses arcane pool to give +1 to a longsword, it's +1 longsword for the magus, but a mundane longsword for anyone else.
If arcane pool had any intent to your interpretation, Paizo would have written text drastically different. It would explicitly say the weapon loses the enhancement bonus upon letting go of the weapon. As LoneKnave points out, the text implies the bonuses continue to work if a magus lets go of the weapon. There's no reason for the text saying what happens if someone else wields the weapon if the weapon loses the bonuses when the magus drops it. Finally, if arcane pool was never intended to work with ranged weapons, the text would explicitly restrict the ability to melee weapons, just like spell combat's and spellstrike's text does.
Rules as written, implied, and intended, your interpretation doesn't hold water, Mathwei ap Niall.
Also, by "ranged specialist archetype," I'm assuming you mean the Myrmidarch archetype? That archetype makes absolutely no mention of arcane pool, ever. The fact that this "ranged specialist" archetype (which I'd debate as well) does not change arcane pool further disproves your claim that ranged weapons do not feasibly cannot feasibly benefit from arcane pool.
If you wish to debate rules or builds with people, that's perfectly fine. However, I ask that you use better tact and etiquette than saying "you're very wrong" to anyone whose opinions differ from your own.
What build depends on what you want out of your character. Do you want an agile mage duelist? A brute that uses magic to buff himself and make himself tanky? Do you want more spells or do you mind sacrificing some magical power to enhance your fighting? There's several interesting builds you can do with the magus. Not all of them are optimal, but there's...
Whip magus that spellstrikes and does combat manuevers with a whip
Blade bounded magus and choose some kind of non-conventional weapon. I heard of one guy who took the bladebounded and kapenia dancer archetypes so he could have an indestructible intelligent bladed scarf.
Hexcrafter magus, which is fantastic because you can debuff enemies with evil eye and get flight at 5th level. You sacrifice spell recall at early levels, but you can use hexes all the time. I personally always wanted to make a hexcrafter magus that got the prehensile hair hex and used it to throw tarot cards via Deadly Dealer. Since the hair uses your Intelligence modifier as your Strength, you can add your Intelligence modifier to the thrown damage. Sadly, Deadly Dealer is not PFS legal.
You can, of course, go kensai with a katana and become a magic samurai kind of guy.
One cool thing with the magus is that what weapon you wield plays a big role in the build and flavor of your character. Since you channel touch spells through your weapon, it can determine the play style and flavor of their combat prowess. A magus that channels shocking grasp through a rapier strikes as very different from one with a big brutal axe. This is one reason I'm not a fan of Dervish Dance -- it forces you to wield one particular type of weapon and makes the character kind of bland and generic.
I usually tend to play Strength magi that use spells and abilities like vanish and spell shield to sneak around and compensate for their low Dexterity.
I wouldn't take Arcane Strike as the magus has plenty of ways to use his swift action.
If you're never sure what feat to take, consider Extra Magus Arcana. Most of them are better than feats.
I cringe seeing Arcane Strike in a Magus build. The Magus Arcana Arcane Edge does +Int bleed damage as an Immediate action. The only reason Arcane Strike is ever better is if your opponent can avoid bleed damage somehow or you're dumping Int for some reason.
Here is the standard Magus build I use, leveled through lvl 15.
Race: Elf
20 point buy
Str: 10
Dex: 21 (16+2+lvl 4+lvl 8+lvl 12)
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
15 point buy
Str: 10
Dex: 20 (15+2+lvl 4+lvl 8+lvl 12)
Con: 12
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Feats:
Lvl 1: Combat Casting (skip if starting at higher level and replace with Extra Arcana at lvl 7)
Lvl 3: Weapon Finesse
Lvl 5: Intensify Spell
Magus 5: Dervish Dance
Lvl 7: Extra Arcane Pool
Lvl 9: Empower Spell
Lvl 11: Extra Arcane Pool
lvl 13: Quicken Spell (can't use yet)
Magus 11: Improved Critical (fireworks)
lvl 13: Critical Focus (more fireworks)
lvl 15: Spell Perfection (Shocking Grasp) (Quicken your Shocking Grasp for free from now on, and keep it as a 1st level spell. Empower it for 15d6 too for a 3rd level slot.)
Traits:
Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)
Reactionary
Magus Arcana:
3-Arcane Accuracy
6-Wand Wielder, Arcane Edge
9-Arcane Strike
12-2 extra arcana (I would take Maximized Magic and Still Magic)
By lvl 15 you can cast shocking grasp twice per turn (3 on a 15+ crit, functionally 4 times after the crit) and get 3 attack (or 4 with haste).
Your options for your swift actions (which you can trade a move action for):
Enhance your weapon
Give yourself a +3 to hit for the round (Arcane Accuracy, 1 AP)
Make all your attacks touch attacks (Arcane Strike, 2 AP)
Spell Recall
Cast a Quickened Empowered Intensified Shocking Grasp
Also, with this particular build 1/day you can cast a Quickened, Empowered, Maximized, Intensified, Still Shocking Grasp as a 3rd level spell. That's 5d6+60 damage even while you're grappled. If you take a 1 level dip into Sorcerer you can gain +1 per die for 5d6+75. It slows your already slow spellcasting but really... you're spamming a 1st level spell and you get 2 other spontaneous 1st level spells.