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The problem being, of course, that applying a similar level of system mastery to non-rogues produces characters who can shatter published content.
I agree with you, Chengar. It's not very difficult to produce characters who blow through published material. The APs are designed for a party of four 15-point characters with very few non-Core options, meaning that adding in all the powercreep which has occurred since will smash things. The Rogue, I'll say, started off behind a bunch of other classes, and hasn't gotten the same powercreep boost that other classes have received.
That being said... Can we make the Rogue work in published content? Absolutely. The Rogue just doesn't turn published content into Easy Mode like several other classes (with their powercreep) do.
So, if you and all of your group enjoy Easy Mode, I can understand avoiding the Rogue. There's plenty of material out there for you and your group to build whatever Smashy McSmashersons you want. But if you or any of your group don't enjoy Easy Mode, the Rogue is a pretty good idea.
-Matt doesn't enjoy Easy Mode.
I agree with you, Chengar. It's not very difficult to produce characters who blow through published material. The APs are designed for a party of four 15-point characters with very few non-Core options, meaning that adding in all the powercreep which has occurred since will smash things. The Rogue, I'll say, started off behind a bunch of other classes, and hasn't gotten the same powercreep boost that other classes have received.
Bear in mind that newer ap's and modules (and by extension pfs) include the new material as well. Often with custom material of their own.
By this logic you can make the argument that the material has gotten harder as well (though RotRL can still kick you good and hard in the teeth).
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So, in short, after 2,500+ posts the answer is NO, we CANNOT make the rogue "work" ... There will always be a class that can fill the rogue's role more effectively.
The existence of a more powerful option does not invalidate the less powerful option. You're basically saying that bicycles can't get you a mile down the road simply because cars exist.
-Matt
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But if for some reason you go for higher optimization (without even going for broken things) the rogues fall behing the other roguish characters, do we agree on this?
I won't disagree with that. I took the DPR challenge with Raquel, and she fell short of an Archaeologist10's DPR. However, the Archaeologist busted out a bunch of daily resources. At the same time, though, I never sat at a PFS table with a roguish character that outdid my Rogues.
So, if the daily resource use doesn't come up, the Archaeologist will win out. If the daily resources are an issue, Raquel is looking a lot better.
This right here is, IMO, one of the fundamental problems of Pathfinder. So much of the game is balanced around daily resources, yet there are no built-in mechanisms to enforce that restriction.
The Rogue and the Fighter have zero built-in per-day abilities. The board really dislikes the Rogue and the Fighter. I do not believe that this is a coincidence.
-Matt
The problem being, of course, that applying a similar level of system mastery to non-rogues produces characters who can shatter published content.I agree with you, Chengar. It's not very difficult to produce characters who blow through published material. The APs are designed for a party of four 15-point characters with very few non-Core options, meaning that adding in all the powercreep which has occurred since will smash things. The Rogue, I'll say, started off behind a bunch of other classes, and hasn't gotten the same powercreep boost that other classes have received.
That being said... Can we make the Rogue work in published content? Absolutely. The Rogue just doesn't turn published content into Easy Mode like several other classes (with their powercreep) do.
So, if you and all of your group enjoy Easy Mode, I can understand avoiding the Rogue. There's plenty of material out there for you and your group to build whatever Smashy McSmashersons you want. But if you or any of your group don't enjoy Easy Mode, the Rogue is a pretty good idea.
-Matt doesn't enjoy Easy Mode.
So, in short, after 2,500+ posts the answer is NO, we CANNOT make the rogue "work" ... There will always be a class that can fill the rogue's role more effectively.
Alchemists and Bards come immediately to mind. Are those classes "shattering content"? I think not. Rogues need to be rewritten. Badly.
The post count alone demonstrates the case.
I completely disagree. I'd say the answer is a resounding yes.
Despite all of the criticism that I've given the rogue across multiple pages, there have been a few builds that do come together to make an effective character.
Mr. Hammery Sap master man is a great example of a rogue filling a decent niche.
The Dashing Archer also, works quite well (although it does even better at higher levels).
Let's remember our goal though.
first the goal I'm going to make our goal here as clear as possible. We wish to make a rogue (PURE rogue) that can perform roguish functions while dealing enough damage in combat to be on par with his spellcasting peers (bards, aclehmists, etc.). We do not want to surpass them as that may prove more difficult than it's worth.
The goal was to make a rogue who does rogue things (skills mainly), who can still deal enough damage to be relevant. In that regard, we have met the goal.
Now if your goal is to have a rogue who outperforms the other classes, your right, we've failed, but that was never the goal.
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This right here is, IMO, one of the fundamental problems of Pathfinder. So much of the game is balanced around daily resources, yet there are no built-in mechanisms to enforce that restriction.
Blood Under Absalom was ridiculous that way. Running the 10-11 tier, I knew nothing was going to tax their resources enough to matter and just had to grin and bear it.
The problem being, of course, that applying a similar level of system mastery to non-rogues produces characters who can shatter published content.I agree with you, Chengar. It's not very difficult to produce characters who blow through published material. The APs are designed for a party of four 15-point characters with very few non-Core options, meaning that adding in all the powercreep which has occurred since will smash things. The Rogue, I'll say, started off behind a bunch of other classes, and hasn't gotten the same powercreep boost that other classes have received.
That being said... Can we make the Rogue work in published content? Absolutely. The Rogue just doesn't turn published content into Easy Mode like several other classes (with their powercreep) do.
So, if you and all of your group enjoy Easy Mode, I can understand avoiding the Rogue. There's plenty of material out there for you and your group to build whatever Smashy McSmashersons you want. But if you or any of your group don't enjoy Easy Mode, the Rogue is a pretty good idea.
-Matt doesn't enjoy Easy Mode.
So, in short, after 2,500+ posts the answer is NO, we CANNOT make the rogue "work" ... There will always be a class that can fill the rogue's role more effectively.
Alchemists and Bards come immediately to mind. Are those classes "shattering content"? I think not. Rogues need to be rewritten. Badly.
The post count alone demonstrates the case.
Both statements are correct.
Yes, the rogue can function even in modern groups. It takes work. And I definitely would not recommend it to a newer player. However you can still be a functioning, contributing member.
But also, it's understood that it's easier and often more effective to do the same job with another class.
Whether or not this is okay is just a matter of opinion. I'm not okay with it.
Blood Under Absalom was ridiculous that way. Running the 10-11 tier, I knew nothing was going to tax their resources enough to matter and just had to grin and bear it.
PFS also makes this problem a whole lot worse with all the free consumables. But that's a separate issue... one which does serve to improve a UMD-sporting Rogue's effectiveness in PFS, though.
-Matt packed scrolls of fly, heroism, lesser restoration, etc.
My Rogues tended to be rather Famous.
-Matt
Hehehehe... That's true. I did have to put off the Country Estate due to those wands and scrolls...
When it comes to wealth-by-level, though, they didn't cost a single gold piece. And there are a lot of methods for addressing situational shortcomings by using these "free" consumables. Fly and heroism were mentioned before, but you can add daylight, spider climb, shield, cure light wounds, tongues, darkvision, bestow insight to grant your skill checks a reroll, Aram Zey's focus to cover for your archetype losing Trapfinding, etc.
-Matt
1) Rogues work just fine if low optimization group
2) Rogue works fine in moderately optimzation group provided system mastery.
3) Otter classes can be just better rogues.
I agree with #1 and #2. #3... I think there's definitely solid evidence in favor, but there's a bit too much subjectivity to call it. The board can't decide what "a good rogue" even means. The Archaeologist is definitely a contender for #3, though. Someone went a little too far when writing that archetype, as evidenced by the fact that the archetype grants Rogue Talents (even Advanced Talents) without substituting out anything from the Bard.
It is Ironic because paizo like to give rogues a lot of 1/per day rogue talents. I mean, woudl it be bad if the rogue can roll twice and thake the better everytime they use acroabtics?
Yep, I have facepalmed upon reading a bunch of the non-Core content as well. I'd say that a universal "pick a skill, roll twice and take the better every time" talent would make a solid, easy-to-remember talent.
-Matt
They could improve the rogue with some very good Rogue Talent. Things like: Select 2+int skills, add 1/2 level on those, improve the 6 faces dices of your sneak to 8 faces dices (and maybe an improved version for 10 faces dices...) and make them Rogue only (if not, they will boost the Archeologist and nothing will change)
The problem being, of course, that applying a similar level of system mastery to non-rogues produces characters who can shatter published content.I think the real outcome has been:
Want to make the Rogue work?
System Mastery, System Mastery, System Mastery, and a very kind DM.
Did I mention System Mastery?
In a group with varying levels of system mastery, avoiding the classes and builds that will shatter the published content could be seen as just being polite though.
This right here is, IMO, one of the fundamental problems of Pathfinder. So much of the game is balanced around daily resources, yet there are no built-in mechanisms to enforce that restriction.Blood Under Absalom was ridiculous that way. Running the 10-11 tier, I knew nothing was going to tax their resources enough to matter and just had to grin and bear it.
I was playing at the (a?) low level table this Saturday and was amazed how many times we got to rest. Until the final chapter, my little gnome came nowhere near running out of fire magic. (Although, a pyromaniac gnome Admixturer 1 / Theologian 1 does have a lot of fire magic to burn through.)
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The problem being, of course, that applying a similar level of system mastery to non-rogues produces characters who can shatter published content.I think the real outcome has been:
Want to make the Rogue work?
System Mastery, System Mastery, System Mastery, and a very kind DM.
Did I mention System Mastery?
In a group with varying levels of system mastery, avoiding the classes and builds that will shatter the published content could be seen as just being polite though.
i.e. I'm currently playing a Melee MAster Summoner in a way of the wicked game. Lots of fun actually since I can just break out a flanking partner when I feel like it. Let's me get my tactical thinking cap on since I can cut off charge lanes, protect my back, and put myself into fights across the field with a standard action.
On an equally unrelated note I got bored at work the other day and straight up rewrote the rogue. I'm typing up the results and putting it in the homebrew section after I put it past Cheapy to see if he vomits, slaps me, or makes a cheeky comment as is his way.
On an equally unrelated note I got bored at work the other day and straight up rewrote the rogue. I'm typing up the results and putting it in the homebrew section after I put it past Cheapy to see if he vomits, slaps me, or makes a cheeky comment as is his way.
color me intrigued. :D
First, thanks to those who posted rogue builds with a critical audience. I always agree it is easy to be a critic and thanks Matt for some good insight into making rogues do better. The fact that brutish rogues seem to do better than Dex based rogues proves to me that how the class as evolved in the Pathfinder system is a problem.
So, now that we know the rogue is a gimped class, what do we do about it? I still like giving the rogue a bonus in gold to get better gear than any class. What percentage bonus over WBL can be left to the GMs. It should be high enough to get people to like rogues again. Giving the rogue enough skill points to keep up with bards would be a good idea too.
On an equally unrelated note I got bored at work the other day and straight up rewrote the rogue. I'm typing up the results and putting it in the homebrew section after I put it past Cheapy to see if he vomits, slaps me, or makes a cheeky comment as is his way.color me intrigued. :D
According to Paizo......These are not the rogues we are looking for.....be on your way
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They could improve the rogue with some very good Rogue Talent. Things like: Select 2+int skills, add 1/2 level on those, improve the 6 faces dices of your sneak to 8 faces dices (and maybe an improved version for 10 faces dices...) and make them Rogue only (if not, they will boost the Archeologist and nothing will change)
Yes. Because a level 19 rogue with a pair of sniper goggles needs to be able to do the same damage as 3-4 siege weapons with a hand crossbow or dagger...every hit (calculated as 10d10 = 100 + 20 for being within 30 feet = 120 vs 36 for a heavy catapult). I do like the Feat for "Bardic Knowledge replication." Mostly so that will get people to shut up about how great the Bard class is... not because I think a Rogue needs it.
I think what most people don't realize is that by the time a rogue is doing 5d6 extra damage, they are doing the same damage on every sneak attack as a heavy catapult. With daggers, swords or arrows.
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I think what most people don't realize is that by the time a rogue is doing 5d6 extra damage, they are doing the same damage on every sneak attack as a heavy catapult. With daggers, swords or arrows.
Against enemies that can take a catapult hit to the face and not slow down.
They could improve the rogue with some very good Rogue Talent. Things like: Select 2+int skills, add 1/2 level on those, improve the 6 faces dices of your sneak to 8 faces dices (and maybe an improved version for 10 faces dices...) and make them Rogue only (if not, they will boost the Archeologist and nothing will change)Yes. Because a level 19 rogue with a pair of sniper goggles needs to be able to do the same damage as 3-4 siege weapons with a hand crossbow or dagger...every hit (calculated as 10d10 = 100 + 20 for being within 30 feet = 120 vs 36 for a heavy catapult). I do like the Feat for "Bardic Knowledge replication." Mostly so that will get people to shut up about how great the Bard class is... not because I think a Rogue needs it.
I think what most people don't realize is that by the time a rogue is doing 5d6 extra damage, they are doing the same damage on every sneak attack as a heavy catapult. With daggers, swords or arrows.
At level 19 a wizard is shattering dimensions, eating your catapults as a dragon and swallowing the souls of entire populaces...for fun.
At the same level AM BARBARIAN is dealing the damage of around 15 catapults on a charge and shattering a wall of force while he's at it.
Comparing anything to a mundane object at the level is an exercise in silliness. Once level 10 hits (earlier for many) leave your expectations of reality behind. We're in High Fantasy, Fantasy Manga territory now.
then he can go sit in a dark corner of a tavern and hire ACTUAL PCs to do things for him, then stay at the bar with the rest of the npcs. (this is less saying the rogue class is an NPC in general, but a player who does not contribute is not a player.)
Buff most rogue talents, make most of the good ones require X levels in rogue class. Nothing should be "X times per day".
Add something like:
"Piercing Precision (Ex)
Benefit: Precision damage counts target's DR as being [half rogue level plus 1] lower than it is, this cannot go into negatives."
As I will say every time this thread is resurrected.
In order for the Rogue to work Paizo needs to release strong Rogue Talents. Talents at least on par, or stronger than Rage Powers.
Here is an elven rogue I have been working on.
11th level elf rogue.
Str: 12 Dex: 22 Con: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 14 Cha: 14
HP: 11d8 + 11
AC: 29 Initiative: + 14
Speed: 30
Elven racial traits = Darkvision, Envoy (Comprehend languages, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic), Elven immunities, Keen Senses, Weapon Familiarity.
Feats = Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Critical, Lunge (Maybe).
Rogue abilities: Sneak Attack + 6d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding, Trap Sense + 3, Improved Uncanny Dodge,
Rogue Talents = Weapon Finesse (Elven Curveblade), Minor Magic (Touch of Fatigue 3/day), Major Magic (Blend 3/day), Weapon Training (Elven Curveblade), Skill Mastery (Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth).
Gear = +1 impact agile dueling elven curveblade , + 5 mithral chain shirt, Belt of Incredible Dex + 4, Cloak of Resistance + 4, Seducer’s Bane, Amulet of Natural Armour + 2, Ring of Protection + 2, Poisoner’s Gloves (Deliver Purple Worm Poison DC 26), Headband of Mental Superiority + 2.
Skills = Acrobatics: + 10 Bluff: + 16, Disable Device: + 25, Climb: + 9, Craft:(Alchemy) + 17, Escape Artist: + 20, Knowledge Dungeoneering: + 17, Perception: 18 (23 vs traps), Spellcraft: + 12 Stealth: + 20 (+ 24 with Blend), Swim: + 7, Use Magic Device: + 16
Saves = Fortitude: + 8 Reflex: + 17 Will: + 9 (+ 16 vs Enchantments)
Traits = Classically Schooled, Armour Expert.
Melee = + 1 impact agile elven curveblade = + 16 / + 11 2d8 + 8 16 – 20 x 3
Sneak Attack = + 18 / + 13 2d8 + 8 + 6d6. 16 – 20 x 3
Melee touch attack = + 9 Deliver Purple Worm Poison DC 26 1d3 Str damage every round for 6 rounds. 2 gloves.
Here is an elven rogue I have been working on.
11th level elf rogue.
Str: 12 Dex: 22 Con: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 14 Cha: 14
HP: 11d8 + 11
AC: 29 Initiative: + 14
Speed: 30
Elven racial traits = Darkvision, Envoy (Comprehend languages, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic), Elven immunities, Keen Senses, Weapon Familiarity.
Feats = Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Critical, Lunge (Maybe).
Rogue abilities: Sneak Attack + 6d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding, Trap Sense + 3, Improved Uncanny Dodge,
Rogue Talents = Weapon Finesse (Elven Curveblade), Minor Magic (Touch of Fatigue 3/day), Major Magic (Blend 3/day), Weapon Training (Elven Curveblade), Skill Mastery (Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth).
Gear = +1 impact agile dueling elven curveblade , + 5 mithral chain shirt, Belt of Incredible Dex + 4, Cloak of Resistance + 4, Seducer’s Bane, Amulet of Natural Armour + 2, Ring of Protection + 2, Poisoner’s Gloves (Deliver Purple Worm Poison DC 26), Headband of Mental Superiority + 2.
Skills = Acrobatics: + 10 Bluff: + 16, Disable Device: + 25, Climb: + 9, Craft:(Alchemy) + 17, Escape Artist: + 20, Knowledge Dungeoneering: + 17, Perception: 18 (23 vs traps), Spellcraft: + 12 Stealth: + 20 (+ 24 with Blend), Swim: + 7, Use Magic Device: + 16
Saves = Fortitude: + 8 Reflex: + 17 Will: + 9 (+ 16 vs Enchantments)
Traits = Classically Schooled, Armour Expert.
Melee = + 1 impact agile elven curveblade = + 16 / + 11 2d8 + 8 16 – 20 x 3
Sneak Attack = + 18 / + 13 2d8 + 8 + 6d6. 16 – 20 x 3
Melee touch attack = + 9 Deliver Purple Worm Poison DC 26 1d3 Str damage every round for 6 rounds. 2 gloves.
Forgot to add the extra + 1 to skills from favoured class so that's an extra + 10 to chosen skills.
You lack shadow strike or the headband of ninjitsu so as things stand you are largely shut down by obscuring mist, blur, a bit of fog or any of the other ways in which creatures might have concealment. As a dex based rogue you are also have very little way to contribute to any encounter involving things which cannot be sneak attacked such as elementals or oozes.
In terms of getting into position an acrobatics of 10 simply isn't going to cut it. You can try to rely on your 29AC but I wouldn't do it. Something like a purple worm or stone golem is going to crush you.
Your will and Fortitude saves are very low for level 11 and you do not get +7 versus enchantments. Seducers Bane provides a resistance bonus which does not stack with your Cloak.
A quick skim suggests you have about 135k worth of gear. While you have 2 crafting feats the UC guidelines suggest no more than a 50% increase in WBL which would take you to 123k available to spend.
You might want go back and check your prices again.
All encounters don't involve mist and other such things. It's very easy to look at a build and then go through the books finding creatures that the character would have difficulty with but realistically, doesn't happen often.
Seducer's Bane is + 5 while being an elf grants a racial bonus of + 2. Your right about Seducer's bane, I was thinking it was a competence bonus but that's just for the Sense Motive bonus. I will find another item to replace Reducer's Bane.
I may just get a Wind Fan which can take care of certain types of mist by blowing them away.
All encounters don't involve mist and other such things. It's very easy to look at a build and then go through the books finding creatures that the character would have difficulty with but realistically, doesn't happen often.
Seducer's Bane is + 5 while being an elf grants a racial bonus of + 2.
Obscuring Mist is a level 1 spell. Being completely shut down by a very common tactic is a bad idea.
Seducers Bane is a +5 RESISTANCE bonus which does not stack with the +4 RESISTANCE bonus from your cloak. The net effect is +3 against enchantments not +7.
Who's common tactic?
Only spellcasters who take the spell can cast it unless someone else just happens to carry a Wand of Obscuring mist. Just because this tactic comes from a 1st level spell doesn't mean it is a common tactic by monsters.
11th level elf rogue.
Str: 12 Dex: 22 Con: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 14 Cha: 14
HP: 11d8 + 11
AC: 29 Initiative: + 14
Speed: 30
Elven racial traits = Darkvision, Envoy (Comprehend languages, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic), Elven immunities, Keen Senses, Weapon Familiarity.
Feats = Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Craft Magic Arms and Armour, Craft Wondrous Items, Improved Critical, Lunge (Maybe).
Rogue abilities: Sneak Attack + 6d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding, Trap Sense + 3, Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Rogue Talents = Weapon Finesse (Elven Curveblade), Minor Magic (Touch of Fatigue 3/day), Major Magic (Blend 3/day), Weapon Training (Elven Curveblade), Skill Mastery (Bluff, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, Stealth).
Gear = +1 impact agile dueling elven curveblade , + 5 mithral chain shirt, Belt of Incredible Dex + 4, Cloak of Resistance + 4, Wind Fan, Scabbard of Vigor, Amulet of Natural Armour + 2, Ring of Protection + 2, Poisoner’s Gloves (Deliver Purple Worm Poison DC 26), Headband of Mental Superiority + 2.
Skills = Acrobatics: + 10 Bluff: + 16, Disable Device: + 25, Climb: + 9, Craft:(Alchemy) + 17, Escape Artist: + 20, Knowledge Dungeoneering: + 12, Perception: 18 (23 vs traps), Spellcraft: + 17 Stealth: + 20 (+ 24 with Blend), Swim: + 7, Use Magic Device: + 16
Saves = Fortitude: + 8 Reflex: + 17 Will: + 10 (+ 2 vs Enchantments)
Traits: Classically Schooled, Indomitable Faith
Melee: + 1 impact agile elven curveblade = + 16 / + 11 2d8 + 8 16 – 20 x 3
Sneak Attack: + 18 / + 13 2d8 + 8 + 6d6. 16 – 20 x 3
Melee touch attack to deliver Purple Worm Poison: + 9 Fort save DC 26 1d3 str per round for 6 rounds.
On your gear you are right, I miscalculated. You have over 150k worth of gear, nearly double normal level 11 WBL and completely outside of the UC guide on how crafting feats should affect wealth. I count:
Weapon 46380
Armour 26100
Ring 8000
Amulet 8000
Headband 16000
Belt 16000
Cloak 16000
Gloves 5000
Bracelet 9900So it looks like you have basically ignored the UC system for the impact of crafting on WBL and assumed you get anything you might be able to craft at half cost.
You also only have a spellcraft skill of +12 so you have a real risk of failure on many of your items. The Headband for instance has a CL of 16 making a base DC of 21. That would be OK if you also didn't lack the ability to cast any of the 3 spells it requires pushing your DC to 36 and therefore meaning you fail automatically.
Finally you are a level 11 character with no means of making ranged attacks, no means of flight and no means of detecting invisible enemies. That is not likely to work well for you.
Ignoring certain requirements will push up the DC. All you have to do is find someone to assist you and it's all good.
All encounters don't involve mist and other such things. It's very easy to look at a build and then go through the books finding creatures that the character would have difficulty with but realistically, doesn't happen often.
Seducer's Bane is + 5 while being an elf grants a racial bonus of + 2.
Obscuring Mist is a level 1 spell. Being completely shut down by a very common tactic is a bad idea.
Seducers Bane is a +5 RESISTANCE bonus which does not stack with the +4 RESISTANCE bonus from your cloak. The net effect is +3 against enchantments not +7.
Who's common tactic?
Only spellcasters who take the spell can cast it unless someone else just happens to carry a Wand of Obscuring mist. Just because this tactic comes from a 1st level spell doesn't mean it is a common tactic by monsters.
Any sort of concealment is enough.
Blur, smoke sticks, natural weather conditions, darkness, invisibility, stinking cloud, the list goes on and on and on and on....
I have only recently started playing a rogue in Pathfinder, but I believe I have made a rather effective one.
While I cannot recall all the specifics of the build, particularly the build for late-game, I will do my best to explain how my rogue is functional both in and out of combat. I am currently level 4.
Much of this requires a competent and willing team that will work with you and your rogue to create combat situations that are beneficial to both allied melee heroes and your own character.
Sneak attack seems to be OP as long as you can get into position, hit the target, and the target is subject to your attacks.
When building my own rogue, I feared, particularly at higher levels, getting destroyed in melee because of a low AC.
To combat this threat (at least for low levels):
-high points in intelligence(ditched charisma and took medium str/con)
-Maxed out dexterity
-Ring of Protection
-Magic Armor
-Dodge feat
-Mobility feat
-Skill points in acrobatics maxed
-Cloak of resistance
As I level up I plan to get the Windwalker feat (I think that is the name) to gain concealment when moving. You can upgrade this to 50% later on. That way when I move in to flank opponents, I can roll my acrobatics check to avoid the attack(s), and IF I fail, I actually have a higher than normal AC, PLUS concealment.
For attack capabilities, I took Weapon Finesse in place of a rogue talent and intend to run up my Two Weapon Fighting line of feats. Combined with my defensive choices of skills and feats, this should make for an effective melee rogue.
This works because if you can avoid taking damage while moving in and position into a flanking situation, you are free to sneak attack the shit out of your opponents. With Two Weapon Fighting feats you can do multiple sneak attacks in a round, scaling (quite well I think) as you level up.
I have already found that if I can get into that flanking situation, I deal more damage than any other character in the party. Yes, they are competently built and played. The key is the sneak attack damage.
This is all reliant on a group that works well as a team. The rogue cannot act as a tank by any means. A flanking situation must be set up in every fight. The good thing is this helps both the rogue and their team.
I am still looking into higher level builds and enchantments for armor and weapons to make my character more effective later on.
For those who say you cannot rely on the sneak attack damage for things such as undead, etc. I find that a rogue only has to carry a few items with a Bane enchantment on them. This is a cheap enchantment and a very Just one example.
If you have any criticisms or questions, perhaps advice please let me know!
Much appreciated and I hope this helps some people.
Sorry for not sifting though the entire thread. What are the tips given for sneak attacking at a range?
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While I cannot recall all the specifics of the build, particularly the build for late-game, I will do my best to explain how my rogue is functional both in and out of combat. I am currently level 4.
Low level is where rogue is strongest. Enjoy it while it lasts.
I have already found that if I can get into that flanking situation, I deal more damage than any other character in the party. Yes, they are competently built and played. The key is the sneak attack damage.
This is all reliant on a group that works well as a team. The rogue cannot act as a tank by any means. A flanking situation must be set up in every fight. The good thing is this helps both the rogue and their team.
As you level, you will find that flying enemies and terrain will likely make it harder to get into flanking position. Also enemies will start to have concealment themselves, negating your sneak attack.
For those who say you cannot rely on the sneak attack damage for things such as undead, etc. I find that a rogue only has to carry a few items with a Bane enchantment on them. This is a cheap enchantment and a very Just one example.
First off, Undead can be sneak attacked. That changed with pathfinder. But Elementals, Oozes, Incorporeal, Swarms, and anything with concealment(easily obtained by a first level spell or even dim lighting) will make your sneak attack useless. And a Bane enhancement is incredibly expensive as you would need to golf bag several +2 minimum weapons that could be used to shore up your weak saves or defenses.
This isn't to say that Rogues can't be effective. But they are a class that gets much more difficult as the game progresses.