Fighter dip for cleric build

[Aikidoka]

I'm thinking of a really decent fighting cleric for organised play, I was thinking about taking fighter for the 1st level and then cleric from then on. It gives me the ability to avoid having to take any armour proficiencies as feat and bumps my HP for the low levels.

The problem is that I'm not sure what to take as the combat feat for the fighter. I'm taking endurance anyway but I'm torn on some of the combat feats. Step up, dodge, improved initiative and power attack seem like solid choices which is the best one to go for?

It's a 20 point build and I'm going with a dwarf.

[Bertious]

Have you looked at the Mendevian Crusader (devil bane priest on the srd)? It gives you the armor proficiencies at the cost of a domain and as a dwarf your weapon selection isn't too bad anyway.

[Captain Zoom]

If you're going to be using a 2-handed melee weapon, Power Attack and Furious Focus are great choices for your level 1 feats.

Alot will depend on your choice of weapon and type of combat.

[Detect Magic]

Why is it called "devilbane" if it is focused against demons?

[karkon]

Just gonna throw this out. Assuming you have at least 11 in Cha maybe a dip into Oracle of Metal might be worthwhile.

They have three revelations that might be very useful. One of the big problems for battle clerics is mobility. Barbarians still move at 30 in armor and by 5th level the fighter can run around in plate mail at full speed. So often the fight is mostly over by the time you are closing.

1) Armor mastery lets you move at full speed in medium armor made of metal (so most of them)
2) Dance of Blades gives you 10 feet of extra movement

So if you spend a 1st level feat you are running at 40 in a Breastplate. If you buy mithril heavy armor you can run around at full speed still.

Oh but you need the heavy armor proficiency. Well use a feat and take Extra Revelation to take Skill at Arms giving you all martial weapons and heavy armor.

Assuming you are human then at 1st level using your two feats on Extra Revelation gets you all this.

So now you have all the proficiencies you need and you are faster than a barbarian wearing the same armor. If you wish to take a second level of oracle you can get the Metal Oracle bonus spell Lead Blades which is tough to get outside of being a ranger.

[XMorsX]

I would suggest a two lvl dip into Wild Rager Barbarian instead of Fighter. This way you will have an extra attack when full-attacking, even when you are not raging, and you will have a very interesting rage mechanic: When you drop someone, you can fail your save vs confusion on purpose. When you are confused, you always strike the creatures that threaten you and your rounds do not count for rage rounds. When you want to end the rage, the willsave will be easy as you will only have 2 lvl of barbarian and cleric has a strong will-save progression and a high wisdom score.

That being said one lvl fighter dip is viable. Don't take endurance, is is a waste of a feat and you do not have many to begin with.

Take the Divine Strategist archetype so that you can freely dump charisma. Your stats can be:

STR 17
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 12
WIS 14
CHA 5

Both for the barbarian and fighter dips your first lvl feat should be Power Attack. If you go fighter, couple it with Improved Initiative. It is nice for droping a buff at the first round of a battle.

Take Tactics (War) domain.

EDIT: If you absolutely must take Endurance, dip one lvl of Unbreakable Fighter. This will give you Endurance and Diehard for free. It will open you the road for the Stalwart feats too. In this case, Combat Expertise is a given after Power Attack so you need higher Int, go with this point buy:

STR 17
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 5

Your first feats should be:

1 Power Attack
3 Combat Expertise
5 Stalwart
7 Furious Focus
15 Improved Stalwart

With Combat Expertise, the tactics domain power of choosing a combat feat on the fly becomes amazing. You can now choose whatever improved [combat maneuver] you want according to the occasion.

[Aikidoka]

I'm not going to be doing anything out of the splat books and I'm glad some people took the time to read my post.

Bertious, I'm not going with crusader clerics as they are quite a let down and severely limit your spellcasting abilities. My plan was to end up with wiz 18 and take travel and nobility to get the speed and ignore terrain while still having a solid domain to make use of for buffs to other characters and myself.

Captain zoom, I'm not sure as to 2 handed all the time. Sword and board is useful and I've a love for tower shields, I might just take power attack.

Mors, how is endurance a waste of a feat? Diehard seems to be a great ability when you hit the dirt and have a spell to hand to heal.

[Belryan]

Clerics are 3/4 BAB. Tower Shield emparts a -2 penalty on your attacks. Power attack also imposes a penalty on your attacks.

Strongly urge you away from using a tower shield.

[blackbloodtroll]

If you want to go Tower Shield, then straight Fighter is for you.

I would just stick with a two hander.

[Aikidoka]

I'm well aware of the tower shield limitations but I've used them to good effect at low levels before. I'm just not eager paying a feat to use it properly. At higher levels there are better ways to get high AC so I can build the character towards that while I make the most of a cheap AC 21 while it's good.

[Magda Luckbender]

If you're playing a Cleric, why dip Fighter at all? The fighter dip makes you slightly more capable in melee, but from 5th level up you'll be more competent overall without the dip. The extra martial feats are nice, but nothing you can't live without. From about level 5+ they're not worth the loss of a caster level.

You can make a really decent fighting cleric without dipping. For example, consider a Reach Cleric [evangelist] of Gozreh, with just the Growth domain. Fight with a long spear. Martial allies will love you for the Inspire Courage & other buffs. STR16 DEX14 & some other stats. By third level, large & fully buffed but with no magic items, you will hit for 2d6+17 => average 24 HP per strike. You potentially get three attacks per round (your normal action + 2 AoOs), for 3 attacks x 24 damage/attack = 72 DPR. By 10th level you'll damage nova around 200-250 DPR, typically on the first or second round of combat. Note that this is NOT an optimized build and has no dump stats - if you optimize you can do much better. You won't always get AoOs, but you get them often enough ...

Dipping a level of fighter will slow your spell progression. This considerably weakens your casting ability, for not much extra martial ability. A Fighter dip gives you +1 weapon damage (+2 when large), and the opportunity to wear heavy armor. If you fight reach-style you will very rarely face a foe's full attack. Would you want to wear armor heavier than a mithril breastplate, and thus hinder your mobility? Does you build plan really need the extra feat?

[Aikidoka]

The idea IS to be in heavy armour, my mobility isn't hindered by it with a dwarf build. If you noticed I am playing a dwarf who will get the travel domain. The versatility of having all the armour proficiencies and sheilds saves me 2 feats AND I get a bonus combat feat. This is worth it IMHO when I save 3 feats from my cleric build, keep a 2nd domain and drop 1 lvl of caster in exchange. I also don't have to toss out the ability to spontaneously cast cure light wounds.

If I put that many points into dex and str, what do I do about wiz and cha? I'm a cleric and without the wiz my spells are hampered and if I dump cha I loose channelling.

The point isn't to be the best fighter, it's to be quite decent while still offering the things that clerics are best at. Spellcasting for buffs and heals.

[Magda Luckbender]

Sounds like you know what you want. Keep in mind, if your spell casting is for buffs and heals, you have little need for high wisdom. With all that armor and shield you will be able to stand on the front line and absorb punishment with the toughest. You won't be able to dish out much damage, but that's not your intent. Of course, you've read the various Cleric Class Guides and know what constitutes a balanced party.

Since you mentioned that you intend to channel, have you decided whether or not to invest resources in channeling? Do you want to channel positive or negative energy? Will you choose Selective Channeling as a feat-tax to channel effectively? Probably not, with a -2 CHA penalty.

Here's a whacky suggestion: perhaps consider worshiping Abadar (works for a dwarf), channel negative energy, and take his Variant Channeling(Cities) for the Harm effect. You won't inflict much HP damage, but you will have a powerful battlefield control ability right from first level. You might instead choose to channel positive energy to heal your allies, and apply the variant Harm effect against undead . You would be a terror against undead, and it would cost you nothing.

[nate lange]

one other overlooked benefit is that dwarves count waraxes and longhammers as martial weapons...

i like the idea of a fighter dip- i'd suggest power attack and combat reflexes as early as possible. you could carry around a longhammer and be primarily a reach cleric, then carry a waraxe as a backup (in case of grease or disarm) or if you feel like you need a shield in a particular situation.

[Magda Luckbender]

nate lange wrote:

one other overlooked benefit is that dwarves count waraxes and longhammers as martial weapons...

i like the idea of a fighter dip- i'd suggest power attack and combat reflexes as early as possible. you could carry around a longhammer and be primarily a reach cleric, then carry a waraxe as a backup (in case of grease or disarm) or if you feel like you need a shield in a particular situation.

I'm convinced. With all that dwarvish synchronicity that sounds like a great plan. I agree with Nate that Combat Reflexes and Power Attack are the base 'hit often and hard' feats. Even with moderate strength you'll do very respectable damage. Plus the dwarvish ability to move in heavy armor ... sounds like a good plan all around.

[Sir Thugsalot]

Take the fighter lever, because it'll give you all martial weapon proficiencies.

Know what rocks with Righteous Might?

A bad-ass polearm -- of the sort you won't be proficient with as a straight cleric.

...and Shelyn (Glaive) doesn't grant the Travel domain (which is like "F*$% *yes*!" for dwarves). My favorite non-dwarven deities that my dwarves like anyway are Kurgess (NG) and Abador (LN); both have the Travel domain. You get untyped Move+10, and Longstrider on your spell list -- and those are just the goodies at first level! Be a dwarf in full-plate with a 40' move!

= = = =

* You are a caster (even with the fighter dip); take Improved Initiative at first level. You won't regret it.

* Resist the urge to sack CON because you can heal yourself. Divine casters are magnets for empowered evocation rays.

* Avoid Power Attack until BAB4; you'll have buffing and magical equipment to get your attack bonus up by then. At Tier 1-2, you won't need it to kill most things when swinging a two-hander.

* Search the forums for "reach cleric".