So we know immediate actions can be used outside your turn, and we know at least certain free actions can be. But what about the swift action used by the feat Binding Throw? Could a character trip for their AoO and then use their swift to grapple?
No, otherwise it would be an immediate action.
Then why doesn't talking or reloading a ranged weapon require an immediate action?
Let me clarify that obviously the character in question did NOT use their swift action from the previous turn. Though I see your point.
As far as I'm aware, swift actions can be used only on your turn, otherwise it's an immediate action (like Partizanski said). I'm not sure what Binding Throw is or does, but if it says you need a swift action, then you can't do it on someone else's turn.
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No, otherwise it would be an immediate action.Then why doesn't talking or reloading a ranged weapon require an immediate action?
Because those are free actions that also can only be done on your actual turn.
Unfortunately the only thing holding you back is that the feat states it's a Swift action, and swift actions can only be taken on your turn. If it were Immediate you would be set.
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Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
Immediate Action: An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn.
The hyphenated clause at the end of the description of an immediate action implies that swift actions must be used on your own turn only.
If Binding Throw states that it allows you to use an immediate action, you're golden to use it as part of an AoO; if it says swift action, then by RAW you can't do it as part of an AoO, because it's not currently your turn.
No, otherwise it would be an immediate action.Then why doesn't talking or reloading a ranged weapon require an immediate action?Because those are free actions that also can only be done on your actual turn.
Unfortunately the only thing holding you back is that the feat states it's a Swift action, and swift actions can only be taken on your turn. If it were Immediate you would be set.
You can talk outside your turn and can reload a ranged weapon as a part of an attack of opportunity made with the Snap Shot feat chain (provided you can reload your ranged weapon ordinarily as a free action). But both those examples are explicitly called out in the rules or FAQs.
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.
The relevant portions are that it says "One swift action per turn", . It would typically have to be during your turn because the other important bit is "anytime you would be allowed to take a free action." But we know there are situations that allow those outside your turn. The basis of my case is that there seems to be leeway in allowing free actions that occur during AoOs.
The section on free actions isn't clear on when they can be taken, and is only implied by the statements of immediate actions. But they do say, "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." And we know from James Jacobs
It's an action. It's not a free or a standard or a full-round or an immediate or a swift action, but it IS still an action. Since it's something you're doing.The other issue is that coms with AoO...
Is an AoO an action? I believe no.
So if we can perform a free action during another action, an AoO counts as an action, and a swift action can be performed when you can perform a free action, and a character has a swift action remaining, could they not use a swift action as part of performing that AoO?
I'll give you one explicit reason why this is not\will not be\shouldn't be allowed: An enemy provokes a an AoO versus a wizard; the wizard swings with his staff and misses - but uses a quickened disintegrate (or other spell) and decimates the enemy.
Now, imagine if the wizard had combat reflexes.
Yes, the wizard would burn through spells pretty quickly. But AoOs are one of the areas where meleers shine versus casters; doing this would make the already-powerful caster that much more powerful.
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But hey, if by some crazy fluke PDT chimes in and allows this, my magus will love it. Quickened empowered shocking grasps - quickened empowered shocking grasps everywhere...
I'll give you one explicit reason why this is not\will not be\shouldn't be allowed: An enemy provokes a an AoO versus a wizard; the wizard swings with his staff and misses - but uses a quickened disintegrate (or other spell) and decimates the enemy.
Now, imagine if the wizard had combat reflexes.
Yes, the wizard would burn through spells pretty quickly. But AoOs are one of the areas where meleers shine versus casters; doing this would make the already-powerful caster that much more powerful.
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But hey, if by some crazy fluke PDT chimes in and allows this, my magus will love it. Quickened empowered shocking grasps - quickened empowered shocking grasps everywhere...
Your wizard could cast a quickened shocking grasp on his turn and hold the charge. Could he not then use it on an AoO?
And how would combat reflexes help out when there is still a finite number of swift actions available even when given multiple AoOs?
There is no action type specified for Attack of Opportunity - that means it isn't an action.
I think that makes it pretty clear that you don't have some special Swift Action "window" opened up by making an Attack of Opportunity.
This argument would disallow other things we know to be allowed. And it contradicts the word of James Jacobs (who I know is not "the rules guy" but his words still mean something).
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A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.The relevant portions are that it says "One swift action per turn", . It would typically have to be during your turn because the other important bit is "anytime you would be allowed to take a free action." But we know there are situations that allow those outside your turn. The basis of my case is that there seems to be leeway in allowing free actions that occur during AoOs.
The section on free actions isn't clear on when they can be taken, and is only implied by the statements of immediate actions. But they do say, "You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally." And we know from James Jacobs
So if we can perform a free action during another action, an AoO counts as an action, and a swift action can be performed when you can perform a free action, and a character has a swift action remaining, could they not use a swift action as part of performing that AoO?It's an action. It's not a free or a standard or a full-round or an immediate or a swift action, but it IS still an action. Since it's something you're doing.The other issue is that coms with AoO...
Is an AoO an action? I believe no.
The intent of it was to only allow Binding Throw during your turn. This is why they made it as a Swift action instead of an Immediate action. An AoO isn't relevant to "taking another action normally". Normally means the actions you Normally take on your Normal turn. Normal being Consistent. AoOs are not consistent by any means. Your Normal Swift/Standard/Move/Free/Full-Round actions are Consistent. If you really want to get into word-play, we can do that.
To my understanding we aren't allowed to perform a free action, swift action, standard action, move action, or full-round action, unless it's our turn. An AoO does count as an action; however that doesn't mean it's our turn that it's used on. There are multiple qualifications, and unless they're all met - it doesn't work.
If you had a Readied action, you could use that swift action in conjunction, but otherwise you cannot.
By RAW it's a No. If you talk to your DM about it, perhaps he'll allow it? I don't exactly see this as game-breaking.
If I can rephrase your question to state explicitly what you are asking implicitly.
Your real question is does the ruling for snapshot which opened the door for allowing a free action to draw an arrow outside of your turn also open the door to allow swift actions to occur outside of your turn.
Answer: No. Even before the FAQ, snap shot implicitly opened the door for a free action to draw an arrow outside of your turn because if it did not then snap shot would not work. The FAQ stated this obvious conclusion to make the snapshot feat work. Some GMs were forcing their players to play with an ineffectual snapshot feat.
So that was the thinking and the point behind the snapshot ruling. Their thinking was clearly not to make an immediate action and swift actions essentially the same thing.
The design team is more a group of pragmatics than they are a group locked into RAW. So, while I kind of get your RAW argument. Your RAW argument is nonetheless not pragmatic and, therefore, clearly is not RAI. I keep telling everyone that the implicit is RAW. Both those pushing to make player's abilities Godlike and those seeking to nerf ability out of existence. You are committing the former sin.
No, that's not what I'm doing, but I see how you could think that. I would say that the argument I'm making would use similar justifications as to what allows snap shot to work. Specifically, that free actions are allowed during other actions and AoOs are actions. So this is a question from the same circumstances but not one that follows the other.
The intent of it was to only allow Binding Throw during your turn. This is why they made it as a Swift action instead of an Immediate action. An AoO isn't relevant to "taking another action normally". Normally means the actions you Normally take on your Normal turn. Normal being Consistent. AoOs are not consistent by any means. Your Normal Swift/Standard/Move/Free/Full-Round actions are Consistent. If you really want to get into word-play, we can do that.
To my understanding we aren't allowed to perform a free action, swift action, standard action, move action, or full-round action, unless it's our turn. An AoO does count as an action; however that doesn't mean it's our turn that it's used on. There are multiple qualifications, and unless they're all met - it doesn't work.
If you had a Readied action, you could use that swift action in conjunction, but otherwise you cannot.
By RAW it's a No. If you talk to your DM about it, perhaps he'll allow it? I don't exactly see this as game-breaking.
Now this makes sense.
I think I would categorize Normal more as meaning, "when not tied up or unconscious" along those lines, but this way is also valid. And I suppose there is no real way to determine which is more correct.
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A related question would be, which free actions would be precluded from an AoO then? Would one also be unable to drop a weapon during an AoO?
If an ability is meant to override the normal action rotation, it would be spelled out as so. Speaking is clarified as an exception, as is snap shot. Binding Throw is not.
The game does not operate on precedent, it operates on distinct statements. An exception to one rule does not automatically qualify similar rules for similar exceptions. Perhaps listing them this way will help:
1. Free actions are minor actions which you can take on your turn.
1a. Some specific free actions can be taken even when it is not your turn.
2. Swift actions are free actions which require enough effort that you are limited to one per turn.
2a. Immediate actions are swift actions that can be taken when it is not your turn.
This is at least how I have always seen it. But I was there when WotC was coming up with and ironing out the swift/immediate action concept. Gives a different perspective, I guess.
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A related question would be, which free actions would be precluded from an AoO then? Would one also be unable to drop a weapon during an AoO?
Unless the feat specifically said you could use said Free Action during an AoO, then I don't believe you could use a Free Action during an AoO normally regardless. You would indeed be unable to drop a weapon during an AoO(assuming that is a free action) or even remove or put your hand back on a 2h weapon for that matter. You would have to wait until it's your turn :T
For some reason my brain always wants to grant more than one swift action per round. So to the earlier response - yes, you're correct, you'd only get one spell off with an AoO.
But you wouldn't even get that one off (in my opinion) because a swift action isn't intended to occur outside your own turn.
If the AoO was on their turn.
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Unless the feat specifically said you could use said Free Action during an AoO, then I don't believe you could use a Free Action during an AoO normally regardless. You would indeed be unable to drop a weapon during an AoO(assuming that is a free action) or even remove or put your hand back on a 2h weapon for that matter. You would have to wait until it's your turn :T
A related question would be, which free actions would be precluded from an AoO then? Would one also be unable to drop a weapon during an AoO?I am not doubting your position on dropping a weapon, but is that in a FAQ.
I only raise it because it popped into my mind that if you are stunned or made to cower when it is not your turn, I believe you drop everything. I don't think you would wait until it is your turn again to drop what you are holding.
Seems wierd that the guy cowering can drop something when it is not his turn and the non-cowering guy cannot.
Then again, maybe I am overthinking it. Could just be one of those weird quirks in the rules.
Somewhere I'm sure there is one.(Edit: I don't think a FAQ is needed as it all is made fairly clear)
Well, the difference in your example, and the previous replies in the thread, is that one is Willingly dropping it(by his decision on his normal turn), and another is forcefully against your will(against his decision on an opponent's turn). Since those two are different circumstances, it's not a good example.
I think it is one of those weird quirks honestly. There sure are plenty of them...
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I think the general rule is that the only free action you can do when it is not our turn is speak.
There are specific rules that trump general. One that comes to mind is being stunned. If you are stunned it explicitly states that you drop everything.
The second is drawing ammunition as a free action when making an AoO. Again, this is specifically permitted via Snap Shot + the FAQ.
So, generally speaking I think the answer is no - you cannot make a swift action as part of an AoO, or drop your weapon as a free action when it is not your turn.
However, I'm not married to this interpretation I've put forth, and am totally willing to change my mind.
I is stated in somewhere (im sorry I dont remeber where, but I believe it is either the faq or a sidebar on d20pfsrd) that taking a hand off of a 2h weapon and putting it back on is a free action that can be taken at any time. As I have actual experience with real weapons, I agree with this.
I actually have never heard of a free action that couldnt be used outside your turn. Though the GM is specifically called out to arbitrate reasonable use of free actions.
There is also the fact that you can make a trip attempt as an aoo, and you can drop your weapon as a free action to avoid being tripped, if your attempt fails.
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I is stated in somewhere (im sorry I dont remeber where, but I believe it is either the faq or a sidebar on d20pfsrd) that taking a hand off of a 2h weapon and putting it back on is a free action that can be taken at any time. As I have actual experience with real weapons, I agree with this.
I actually have never heard of a free action that couldnt be used outside your turn. Though the GM is specifically called out to arbitrate reasonable use of free actions.
There is also the fact that you can make a trip attempt as an aoo, and you can drop your weapon as a free action to avoid being tripped, if your attempt fails.
You should find it. I'd like to see it please! No challenge intended, but it would be nice to know. Also, d20pfsrd is a highly, but not fully, reliable source as it is fan created/compiled.
Also, that "fact" that you can drop a weapon to avoid a counter-trip(or just falling at your own clumsiness) is due to the Trip property on the Weapon that SPECIFICally tells you that you can, which would override the General rule only because of that property.
As far as trip weapons, I think that is more because the weapons that have trip are all weapons that are reach, or are easily entangled on an enemy, in both cases, those weapons provide unique opportunities to counter trip from a logical standpoint, if not a mechanical standpoint.
For example, trying to trip with a shortsword, if the attempt fails, dropping the weapon doesnt help at all to avoid being counter tripped, cause my counter trip attempt is a strike to take advantage of your being over extended. Usually in such a case the counter trip is taking advantage of an opening, rather then doing anything with the weapon itself.
However, with rope weapons, sickle-like, reach, or other weapons that are easily entangled, the opponant actually gains an opportunity to counter trip from the weapon itself. For example if you try to trip me with a flail, and it wraps around my wrist, I can lock it in place and yank, in that case you either drop the weapon or fall.
Thus in the case of a sword, it doesnt make sense to drop a weapon to avoid a counter trip, but with a flail it does.
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And I did find the two weapon grip issue on the weapons page of d20pfsrd, though it links to the faq so I would call it legitimate.
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As far as trip weapons, I think that is more because the weapons that have trip are all weapons that are reach, or are easily entangled on an enemy, in both cases, those weapons provide unique opportunities to counter trip from a logical standpoint, if not a mechanical standpoint.
For example, trying to trip with a shortsword, if the attempt fails, dropping the weapon doesnt help at all to avoid being counter tripped, cause my counter trip attempt is a strike to take advantage of your being over extended. Usually in such a case the counter trip is taking advantage of an opening, rather then doing anything with the weapon itself.
However, with rope weapons, sickle-like, reach, or other weapons that are easily entangled, the opponant actually gains an opportunity to counter trip from the weapon itself. For example if you try to trip me with a flail, and it wraps around my wrist, I can lock it in place and yank, in that case you either drop the weapon or fall.
Thus in the case of a sword, it doesnt make sense to drop a weapon to avoid a counter trip, but with a flail it does.
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And I did find the two weapon grip issue on the weapons page of d20pfsrd, though it links to the faq so I would call it legitimate.
Again, without the Trip property or a description relating to that, you can drop a weapon due to a failed trip attempt Due to that Specific Property. Otherwise you could not unless you are referring to houseruling and giving it a more realistic approach, which is not the RAW. I get what you're saying, but that's not the standard rules; the standard rules in which this entire section of the paizo forums are dedicated to.
I like your viewpoint though, and if I ever DM'd a game I would probably allow the same.
Then link it please? I can't read minds.
What I was trying to say is that trip allowing you to drop the weapon is specific vs being able to avoid a counter trip, not vs dropping a weapon as a free action during not your turn.
I cant link it, not until I get to the library sometime next week. Until then d20pfsrd go to equipment and weapons, just above the two handed weapon table.
Davick an AoO is not an action in the sense that a move actions and such are actions. It is an action in the sense that we think of it in real life.
Actions(the game term) are used to tell use how long "actions(anything your character does)" actually take.
You can not take Actions when it is not your go. Not all "actions" are an Action.
No Action and not an Action cover things that you can do, but do not take up an official Action type. AoO's fall into that category, so do things like holding your Action so you can go later in the initiative.