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Does the Treesinger Druid gain movement speeds from its Wild Shape ability?
No, this is fairly easy to amswer and probably a bit premature for a faq request. Regardless, it works like plant shape. This means you get the ppants land speed with the stipulation if it normally cannot movw you can move 5 feet.
It appears the plant shape spells don't add any movement modes. They don't seem to add movement.
No, this is fairly easy to amswer and probably a bit premature for a faq request. Regardless, it works like plant shape. This means you get the ppants land speed with the stipulation if it normally cannot movw you can move 5 feet.
It appears the plant shape spells don't add any movement modes. They don't seem to add movement.
So, effectively, the Treesinger's Wild Shape is incredibly weaker than all other Druids? Was that intentional?
Maybe the question should be, does Plant Shape grant movement speeds? The polymorph description seems to suggest it should, even though it doesn't.
EDIT: Is this premature for an FAQ? I don't know the rules for this sort of thing, but I found roughly 5-6 threads on this with seemingly no good answer.
To be clear, this question is not really for Treesinger druids, it is for Plant Wildshape in general.
However yes, as of 8th level, Treesinger Druids' Wildshape is strictly inferior to normal druids. They have some other benefits (a very resistant companion for one) to make up for it.
To be clear, this question is not really for Treesinger druids, it is for Plant Wildshape in general.
However yes, as of 8th level, Treesinger Druids' Wildshape is strictly inferior to normal druids. They have some other benefits (a very resistant companion for one) to make up for it.
But does it balance out losing elemental shape and beast shape? Maybe I'm mistaken, but it doesn't seem intentional.
Especially given Plant Shape's level as a spell and as an ability gained from Wild Empathy, it seems broken.
No - it doesn't really seem to balance out, which is why I've been pretty lenient with the companion, and a few custom spells (using Diminish Plant as a "Reduce Plant" spell, etc.).
You do realize that regular druids can Wildshape into Plants, yes? (Just want to make sure).
Edit:
You do realize that regular druids can Wildshape into Plants, yes? (Just want to make sure).
Yes...of course. It just seems especially harsh and obvious on Treesingers since they lose both other forms.
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If the form you assume does not possess the ability to move, your speed is reduced to 5 feet and you lose all other forms of movement.
doesn't preclude gaining the movement speed of the plant you turn into, if it has one.
its just if you turn into a stationary plant with no movement speed, you instead are able to shuffle around at a speed of 5 ft.my treesinger usually turns into a vegepigmie.
you loose a little bit of movement speeds with most plants.
but you still gain the movement speed of what you transform into. I thought that was a pretty standard part of polymorph effects.
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.
since flight, burrow , etc, aren't listed in the plant abilities, you'll never gain them, even if they publish a plant that flies. ( which sucks. ). but a lot of plants have poison based abilities, or multiple attacks (violet fungus). which can help mitigate.
Might I also suggest taking a look at the Quickwood. 10ft. speed and a reach of 60ft., making speed much less important.
since flight, burrow , etc, aren't listed in the plant abilities, you'll never gain them, even if they publish a plant that flies. ( which sucks. ). but a lot of plants have poison based abilities, or multiple attacks (violet fungus). which can help mitigate.
Sure, poison is nice, but Beast Shape III or Wild Shape at level 8 for a standard druid still gets poison...along with a host of other abilities.
By RAW, it's obvious that Plant Shape and Wild Shaping into a plant form doesn't grant movement speeds, although it may potentially give you the ability to breathe in the water or ground, if the form would normally be able to do so (under "polymorph" description). However, RAI this seems unintentional or accidental, as all other shapes grant movement speeds and senses.
Especially where the Treesinger is concerned, did they really intend to limit the archetype that much? There are now plants that fly (puffball, leaf leshy, mi-go), burrow (mandragora), swim (seaweed leshy, shambling mound, sargassum fiend), and of course climb. Sure, Plant Shape was designed quite a while ago, but it's really a shame that it doesn't grant these movements or the senses (blindsense, tremorsense, etc) that Beast Shape grants. We're up to Bestiary 4 now...seems like it's time to update.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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By RAW, it's obvious that Plant Shape and Wild Shaping into a plant form doesn't grant movement speeds
senses (blindsense, tremorsense, etc) that Beast Shape grants.
We differ on the RAW of whether or not you get speeds (I read that you do because of the line about stationary get 5 ft speed instead.)
But you are right about the scenes, but I don't think you will see much in the way of power ups.
By RAW, it's obvious that Plant Shape and Wild Shaping into a plant form doesn't grant movement speeds
senses (blindsense, tremorsense, etc) that Beast Shape grants.
We differ on the RAW of whether or not you get speeds (I read that you do because of the line about stationary get 5 ft speed instead.)
But you are right about the scenes, but I don't think you will see much in the way of power ups.
I really wish you were right, but I think the others here are correct. That's why I'm asking for an FAQ to address the question (which I should have worded differently), because this has come up numerous times. Technically, by RAW, you don't gain the movement speeds.
I've talked about this in my other posts on the topic. It seems like a mistake, especially for an archetype that solely uses Plant Shape, but it's the way the rules are written.
Does the Treesinger Druid gain movement speeds from its Wild Shape ability?You get the movement of whatever plant creature you emulate by spell. There are plant creatures with movement. If however you emulate something like a Tree, you're limited to 5 feet. You want a movement speed, pick a plant form that gives you movement that fits into the restrictions of whatever plant shape spell you're emulating.
The problem is that Plant Shape I-III don't grant movement types/speeds.
normal beast shape, does not grant base movement either. Climb Swim etc by the design of poly morph spells have to be specifically spelled out but Base land speed does not.
That tree with the huge ass reach posted earlier looked neat though.
Someone just presented this argument on the Advice Forum: given the description of Polymorph spells, isn't it possible that the movement speeds and senses listed in Beast Shape are limitations rather than allowances?
And, if so, is it possible that Plant Shape intended to grant all of the senses and speeds of the form you assume? It is a higher level spell/ability than Beast Shape, and when the two were originally published there were very few plant creatures...and they all had similar senses to Beast Shape III - the equivalent spell.
Someone just presented this argument on the Advice Forum: given the description of Polymorph spells, isn't it possible that the movement speeds and senses listed in Beast Shape are limitations rather than allowances?
And, if so, is it possible that Plant Shape intended to grant all of the senses and speeds of the form you assume? It is a higher level spell/ability than Beast Shape, and when the two were originally published there were very few plant creatures...and they all had similar senses to Beast Shape III - the equivalent spell.
That was me, and after a quick look at the polymorph rules, the other posters here are correct.
The language is clear. A spell may grant additional movement modes if they are listed in the spell, but every polymorph effect absolutely changes your land speed to that of the creature.
This is sort of a bust for Plant Shape which already has more limited options... but it is RAW. You do not get burrow, swim, climb, glide, fly, etc... sucks, but thems the breaks.
Still, once you hit level 8 you can be a Viper Vine and they are pretty cool.
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in beast shape 1 it is a limitation more than an allowance.
if the creature gives a flight , but you use beast shape 1, you're limited to 30 ft. of flight, as spelled out in polymorph paragraph.
In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.
so beast shape 1, you turn into an eagle. you don't get flight 80 ft.
you gain the listed benefit: 30 ft. as the eagle's 80 ft. flight is a 'greater ability of the same type'I still read the plant shape spells as never granting flight, because its not called out as an ability to gain. =/ . though i see that as more of a rules oversight / narrow rules view of plants.
though i see that as more of a rules oversight / narrow rules view of plants.
I do too, which is the reason I was hoping for some kind of official response. It seems like an oversight. However, if it's not, then it really weakens the Treesinger archetype and any future archetypes/class features that use Plant Shape.
Maybe I'll just have to address it with house rules and avoid Plant Shape in PFS or other official play.
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weakens the Treesinger archetype and any future archetypes/class features that use Plant Shape.
I keep seeing responses like this. They don't mean anything.
Just because an option isn't more powerful than the default, isn't a reason to ask for power ups.
You play a Treesinger to play a Plant focused character. You don't because it is more powerful. If it is less powerful, it is a choice you make to play it. So you should stop asking for powerups because you perceive it to be less powerful.
weakens the Treesinger archetype and any future archetypes/class features that use Plant Shape.I keep seeing responses like this. They don't mean anything.
Just because an option isn't more powerful than the default, isn't a reason to ask for power ups.
You play a Treesinger to play a Plant focused character. You don't because it is more powerful. If it is less powerful, it is a choice you make to play it. So you should stop asking for powerups because you perceive it to be less powerful.
Agreed - mostly.
The one exception I might mention would be an archetype that might lend itself to interesting characters, but is actually so lacking in power that it actively hinders the playability of the character.
Since Pathfinder tends to be a somewhat combat-centric game, at some point it is possible for an interesting archetype or concept to be rendered unfeasible simply because it can't survive long enough to be an investment of character.
So you should stop asking for powerups because you perceive it to be less powerful.
Maybe I'm misrepresenting my question. I'm not "asking for powerups". I'm curious as to whether or not the archetype was intentionally created to be less-balanced due to an oversight on Plant Shape.
Admittedly, I should have worded the question differently and focused on Plant Shape.
EDIT: And it's pretty apparent that this is a confusing ruling for many - if not solely represented by the number of other threads asking this question over the last year or so.
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Paizo has said they intentionally make weaker options, so my guess is yes, it was intended and even if it wasn't, they probably don't consider it worth fixing.
Even thematically, it seems ridiculous. I keep getting this scenario in my head:
Normal Druid: "Hey, a high wall. Let's fly over."
Treesinger Druid: "Alright!"
Treesinger Druid: "Oh, my wings don't work..."
Normal Druid: "No big deal. We'll just dig under."
Treesinger Druid: "Good idea!"
Treesinger Druid: "Um...I can't seem to dig...anyone have a shovel?"
Normal Druid: "Ok...I guess we can just climb it."
Treesinger Druid: "Oh yeah! Plants can definitely climb!"
Treesinger Druid: "So...I can't. Maybe some rope would help?"
Normal Druid: "Wow, you're terrible."
I don't know what to tell you man, its a gimped archtype.
There is genuinely NO benefit to using it. Just penalties. The plant companions are not better than the animal choices and you get a much weaker version of Wild Shape.
That's about it.
If I were your GM, I would see that, see the flavor that you wanted, and change their Wildshape ability to reflect the Shaman Archtypes.
I still wouldn't change the wording of plant shape, but at least you could shape into other forms (albeit at level -2) and get your better plant forms earlier.
Even thematically, it seems ridiculous. I keep getting this scenario in my head:
Normal Druid: "Hey, a high wall. Let's fly over."
Nonono.
A Treesinger whips out a pair of adamentine picks, hands one to his Treant companion, plantshapes into a Treant and they dig through the wall faster then any dwarven mining team could dream of. Then they dig through every wall in the dungeon, bypassing everything. They then tunnel past the boss, into the treasure room and make off with all the loot, because they can. Obviously overpowered.