So about 2 1/2 years ago, when we were just starting out, we did Legendary Levels. It was our attempt at rules for epic level (post 20th level play) play in Pathfinder. There were a lot of high points, but there were some things we were not happy with (system ). On the tails of it, we did Legendary Levels II along with Legendary Bestiary & Magic about 6 months later. To date, these are still some of our best selling products. But when we released it, I think the APG had just come out (or maybe not) so there is a LOT of lost ground. That being said, we'd love to get your feedback on this.
Do you guys want to see us go back and work on an expanded/revised version? We've had 3 years of design work and professional growth to build on (see: Necropunk, Primal Host, Invoker, Tome of Munitions, etc).
What do you want to see covered? If we did this, we'd like to revise core system elements but also cover game elements that were not covered by core rules and even stuff from the 3rd party realm.
Any feedback would be appreciated. We are just testing the water now.
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come on people, I REALLY want to work on this. You could win my adoration with an affirmation ;).
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A resounding 'yes' to going back to work on this topic. The core element I think I'd like to see the most work on is skills, but if you all are doing it, it's gonna be good :)
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I'd support an expansion/revision. I'd especially like to see how compatible you could make it with the mythic rules. Deific rank as an expansion of mythic tiers/rank? I like how that sounds!
Some Legendary Eastern support would also be great. Once you have whichever path you choose to do set in stone, several Legendary Bestiaries would be an infinite blessing.
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I have not looked at your original product but I always enjoyed the occasional epic game in 3.x. So that would be a yes?
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And a big yes from me. It's the biggest missing part from pathfinder on my opinion.
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I'm fond of the idea of epic. I never played the original product, but as long as it was balanced well, it would be fun. I've yet to play an epic game, but my understanding was that the system (in 3.X anyway) scaled really poorly. It could be fun, but it has to be taken carefully, since the game is not designed to function so. That's my biggest worry.
Otherwise, it would be interesting to see some mythic "Prestige classes", so as to do more than just continue scaling with the same class. I've always wanted to play a magus that could cast "ride the lighting".
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@Xavier Dorland
I think mythic would have to be addressed. We've love to sink our teeth into that.
@nick pater
It is a very big thing that is not covered (hence why we wrote this). When play suddenly comes to a halt at 20th level and your players want to keep going, what do you tell them? "Sorry, the story shop is closed. Go home adventurers. Well done. Here is a biscuit."
@williamoak
There were a lot more absolutes in the expanded system. Concepts like legendary damage ("L-Damage") was implemented which effectively made certain class features save or die effects (reduce to 0 actually) but there were a LOT of ways of mitigating that. We play tested the hell out of it (to the point we could back then) and it was legitimatly some of the most fun we've ever had playtesting a product.
The thing you have to keep in mind when playing is that play beyond 20th level is a much higher power level. A solar angel is CR 23 and Legendary covers 20-30. That means you could be fighting 1d4+1 solars as a "low level" legendary encounter. The closer you get to 30 the more insane your adversaries become (you need to fight like SEVERAL princes of hell with their entire court to level up from like 26-27). So when you wrap your brain around the idea that the fighter will reliably be able to dish out at LEAST 100 damage in a round reliably, you start to get the kind of power level you play on with Legendary.
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While there is some overlap that would likely need to be addressed, I largely don't think that the Mythic and the Legendary approaches are mutually exclusive. Mythic offers a way to get more power outside of leveling up, and can be done at any point in a character's progression. Legendary offers a completely different way to get more power within the leveling system, and can only be begun once the character has reached level 20.
I think there's potential to have characters that are mythic without being legendary, legendary without being mythic, or even characters that combine both mythic tiers and legendary levels.
One thing that would need to be addressed is demi-god level NPCs. If you are going to throw Legendary into the mix, then they need to be beefed up as well, unless you want your characters running around with demon lords on leashes. Likewise, similar powerful opponents coming from LRGG would need to be beefed up to account for characters that are both legendary AND mythic.
While there is some overlap that would likely need to be address, largely don't think that the Mythic and the Legendary approaches are mutually exclusive. Mythic offers a way to get more power outside of leveling up, and can be done at any point in a character's progression. Legendary offers a completely different way to get more power within the leveling system, and can only be begun once the character has reached level 20.
Exactly.
There would be need to be some kind overlap and rules for it (beefing up enemies, adjusting CR, mitigating abilities, etc) We always saw Mythic and Legendary as similar in nature but capable of working in tandem. A Legendary Mythic game would be an insanely powerful game, much like how a Gestalt Legendary game is (but in very different ways).We'd also like to do stuff with other 3rd party publisher. We'd be happy to write up Legendary versions of various character classes, enemies, etc (Legendary Psionics, Necropuunk, and Cerulean Seas would be fun).
All of this is sounding pretty exciting. Will new Legendary rules also add Mythic options? Such as Mythic Path abilities that require Legendary feats or class features? Or perhaps even Legendary feats or possibly even prestige classes that are especially made for Legendary Mythic characters or critters? Legendary rules are pretty rocking already, but once you add a revamp as well as Legendary Mythic support? Plenty of room for plenty of books there, and I'll be buying every one!
As far as third party goes, more Little Red Goblin stuff is obvious, but a big fan of the Dreamscarred psionics, and am also quite fond of the dreadfox Swordmaster. Supergenius expansion would be a major bonus, especially the anachronistic adventurer line. I'm sure whatever you pump out will be some high quality product.
Bwahaha, my master plan is working.
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Oh, mythic toaster, such a short time ago you were merely +5... I guess you hope to become Mythic-epic (Mepic?) deific aspect toaster?
On another note, thanks for the response LRGG. I'm quite happy that you guys are playtesting this effectively.
One issue I've noticed for high-level builds (I've yet to play high level) is that their raw power can fluctuate quite significantly depending on the level of optimization (even without going into silly 700+ damage/turn builds). Are you thinking of ways to mitigate that issue?
I would also be curious what you could come up with for epic "non combat" challenges. I know most of the game focuses on combat, but I'd be curious to know:
-What would be the difference for an "epic" skill monkey and a regular one (beyond more +skill)? (one idea I've seen floating around is that when you hit a certain skill cap (IE, more than 20 ranks in a skill) you could gain a spell-like ability associated with it; for example, at 20+ ranks in stealth, you can cast invisibility 3+dex times a day or the like)
-What kind of epic non-combat challenges could be interesting? (I have a few ideas on this myself, though it's still only roughly sketched in my mind)
-How do you keep players feeling "epic", while still keeping challenge, and not just "cranking EVERYTHING up to 11"
What I can expect for combat seems fairly predictable, but it's the non-combat that I'm quite interested by. I'll keep an eye on what you guys are doing, hopefully something interesting will come out of it.
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I love the originals. I would love to see an update.
Would definitely be interested in seeing more!
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@Xavier Dorland
I think we would have to expand into Mythic stuff. See my above post.
@williamoak
-*Playtested
We playtested the material we released over 2 years back quite extensively. We will be doing the same this time too.
-So we were confronted with the fact that numbers, no matter how constrained you make them, get silly (as you indicated) at higher level. We have a mechanic called “L-Damage” (legendary damage) which is effectively a way to automatically reduce people to 0 HP which you can do in place of some attacks (it is mostly tied into class features). There are also ways to either reduce the effect of L-damage or mitigate it. Certain creatures are straight up immune to it as well. We didn’t want to implement a damage cap or whatever, it just didn’t feel right.
Keep in mind that at really high levels, things become more about absolute.
“If the fighter gets a full attack on the mage with 8 attacks, chance are he is going to kill it.”
“If the mage gets the genocide true dweomer off, a lot of people are going to die.”.
“That rogue has very little chance to effect that defensively min-maxed opponent unless they are flat footed.”
Things like this came up in our calculations (for example: Dodge as AC was WAY more effective post 20th level then armor until our adjustments) so we had to find creative and interesting ways to address them. The new mechanics like L-damage, the “primal” element damage type, true dweomer, and divinity scores take care of a lot of that.
-Skill monkeys get a whole slew of new options. In Legendary Levels we provided new uses for skills at higher DCs.
-Non-Legendary Levels is akin to a fantasy novel, Legendary Levels is more akin to a 80s metal music video. Players don’t just face a soldier- they face armies. Your enemy isn’t a evil wizard, it’s an entire pantheon of deities who have been corrupted or an invading of world destroying hive mind race that crashed through to your dimension knows only hunger. The stakes aren’t just the fate of nations, they are the fate of entire planes of existence. Crank it up to 11? More like 21 ;-)
-Combat is actually a lot more fun while non-combat challenges are more heightened versions of what you could do before. Non-combat was again, a lot more about absolutes. If you have a +60 to your Diplomacy, your GOING to make it. A lot of times non-combat challenges were a bit more about what resource you could use to solve it. For example: Getting over a chasm wasn’t about just jumping over a deep pit, it was about how to make it over a gap that kept increasing in distance as you jumped and was never-ending in its depth. Well, you might have a +60 to Acrobatics, but the idea of jumping it was not going to work (Absolutes). You had to find solutions like, building a bridge, using a latter, filling the “endless pit” with an “infinite amount of material” or something like that. I like the idea of a skill-rank caps with cap bonuses though. Might even it out a bit more and make it easier for us to design adventures.
(Sorry for the double post- just a lot to reply to)
@Dr. Johnny Fever
Adventurers are stuff we’d like to write. We are determining what the budget for this would be, but it is going to be large. Doing adventures are not outside the realm of possibilities. We’ve written them before (not for Legendary) but it is not our specialty. We could definitely take a crack at it. The issue with writing post 20th level adventurers is that they are very much tied to what you’ve done previously. I’ve taken some home games into Legendary Levels territory but it was built on almost 2 years of running games weekly. There are adventure hooks that do work, we just gotta remember how much came BEFORE. We’ll work something out though, we agree that this would have to be a critical element to the book.
Legendary Levels isn’t meant to be the start of a campaign, though it certainly could be, because if a player is suddenly given 20 levels worth of feats, class features, equipment, spells, etc its a bit intimidating. Playing your way through 20 levels of a character gives you a good feel for the character. During our LL playtests (and LL2) it was totally overwhelming jumping in on 23rd level characters. I’d suggest even starting at 15th level with a character before jumping in on LL material.
(And LL is 21-30)
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-Non-Legendary Levels is akin to a fantasy novel, Legendary Levels is more akin to a 80s metal music video. Players don’t just face a soldier- they face armies. Your enemy isn’t a evil wizard, it’s an entire pantheon of deities who have been corrupted or an invading of world destroying hive mind race that crashed through to your dimension knows only hunger. The stakes aren’t just the fate of nations, they are the fate of entire planes of existence. Crank it up to 11? More like 21 ;-)
This appeals to me if a way can be found to streamline high-level play and avoid such battles turning into a five-hour slog.
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I would love to see Epic Levels. I kind of have a strong preference for characters developing new options instead of bigger numbers. Though big numbers aren't always bad, sometimes it's cool to play the guy that casually slices planets in two as his sword duel plays out across the Solar System. But planet slicing is a bit extreme for even level 30 and I would still prefer a Fighter develop the ability to counter spells by slicing them out of the air to his doing a billion damage to destroy the planet.
I would still prefer a Fighter develop the ability to counter spells by slicing them out of the air to his doing a billion damage to destroy the planet.
I would LOVE something like this. Maybe using the Barbarian's Spell Sunder as a starting point?
@Orthos
The legendary damage mechanic was designed for JUST that reason.
"Monk, do you want to do 15 attacks or hit with three then roll to see if they explode?"
@Hark
Legendary Levels (I or II) has a spell sunder ability that literally allows you to do that. (I think it was regarding cones/lines/etc)
@ LRGG:
Well, it's nice to see the effort you guys are putting. I'll keep an eye out. If you guys ever decide to do some outside playtesting, might be interested. I've got a GM that wants to bring us to epic levels but he hasnt really defined any rules yet.
@Orthos
The legendary damage mechanic was designed for JUST that reason.
"Monk, do you want to do 15 attacks or hit with three then roll to see if they explode?"
I'll need to look into this then, see if it's applicable for pre-epic streamlining as well - my group has been steadily slowing combat down since they hit around 8th or so, and they're 12th now.
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Well, the point was new a wonderfully fantastic options. But since we have spell sundering, we obviously need Planet Cutting Slice, as a Mythic Legendary ability. Probably building off Improved Sunder several levels through things like a Mountain Toppling Blow technique. And lets not forget a star treading step so that we can duel across the Solar system.
I kid of course, but I can still dream about a game one day fulfilling dreams of allowing Anime-esque duels of the gods.
Barbarians, uhh, Hulk smash? Ooo better yet, scream so loud he can make holes in reality to serve as portals, or even planeshift.
Bards, I don't know, can we literally tell a tale so sad that people die of a broken heart yet? We really should just ask "What would the gods of Rock and Metal do?" So shatter mountains with sick guitar solos is probably the way to do, but I already suggested that with swords, hmm.
Cleric, stupid amounts of flexibility here, with so many faiths its hard to say an Iconic power. Becoming, the literal vessel for your gods power and taking on all sorts of powers for doing so seems a little to obvious. So, go to the old favorite for epic divine power, Old Testament. I want to be able to confidently say that I can go Old Testament on someones ass. If it happens in the Old Testaments I want to be able to do it. Pillars of Salt, world floods, parting seas, sucks to be first born, etc.
Druid, I think we can start with Volcanoes, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, and work our way up from there. Wild shape, not into an animal or a plant, or an elemental, but wildshape into an environment. I become the forest, and the forest is very very angry.
Fighter, anime it up. We need acrobatics, and improbable strikes, Book of Nine Swords is probably a great inspiration. Cut spells, cut Fate, cut holes in reality. Smashing and Pokeing are probably good too.
Monk, shit I have a hard time not saying Dragon Ball, but that leaves a bad taste in so many people. The monks doesn't need energy blasts, but leap to the moon and step across the stars, yes please. Run on the clouds, and dodge the very rain. Don't catch an arrow catch a bolt of lightning.
Paladin, a lot of the obvious stuff is pretty fightery. Redeem the irredeemable, kill the unkillable. Oh, a Paladin needs to be able to stand upon the walls of a city and raise his shield to defend all inside the city from the Evil Wizards onslaught.
Ranger is a flexible one. Do we define him by hate, combat style, or naturey goodness? Shoot impossibly fast, shoot arrows out of the sky, whisper the name of his hated enemy to an arrow and fire it into the moon, and the arrow will find the enemy wherever he is and strike him. Ranger knows the wilds so well he can use nature to shortcut reality and effectively teleport from one natural environment to a similar one anywhere in the world, and his party can follow.
Rogue, steal thoughts, steal time, steal techniques, steal your turn in combat. Tell a lie so convincing that reality believes it and makes it so.
Sorcerer/Wizard, yeah, I lost my momentum, sorry. It's hard to top Wish. Maybe a Sorcerer can forge their own new bloodline or something and pass it on to others. Wizard, all about versatility to me, anything to make the vast options of a Wizard more open to the Wizard is good in my book, see the FR Mage Lord Prestige Class, loved that one.
Edit: Also compatibility with Dreamscarred Press's works on Psionics, and their upcoming Path of War would greatly enhance the value of this product to me.
Tell a lie so convincing that reality believes it and makes it so.
"My name is Adahn."
@Hark
I'd look at legendary levels and legendary levels II. A lot of that is in there. We also covered all the non-core class.
I'm sure it is, I'm just trying to get myself excited, and maybe get other people excited about the possibilities. But if that is Legendary I'm both scared and excited to see what you come up with for Mythic Legendary.
Maybe I'll just have to demand that doing battle Maxed Out Mythic Legendary would threaten to destroy reality simply as collateral damage of the fighting. Which reminds me collateral damage as a result of High end fighting totally needs to be a thing. Maybe even as a tool to keep players under control until they need their full power and it is safe to use.
Seriously, though already bought the first one to get a taste of what you put out, and if I like will probably drop the cash on the rest of the series.
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"My name is Adahn."
What can change the nature of a man?
I'm sure it is, I'm just trying to get myself excited, and maybe get other people excited about the possibilities. But if that is Legendary I'm both scared and excited to see what you come up with for Mythic Legendary.
Maybe I'll just have to demand that doing battle Maxed Out Mythic Legendary would threaten to destroy reality simply as collateral damage of the fighting. Which reminds me collateral damage as a result of High end fighting totally needs to be a thing. Maybe even as a tool to keep players under control until they need their full power and it is safe to use.
Seriously, though already bought the first one to get a taste of what you put out, and if I like will probably drop the cash on the rest of the series.
For sure. A mythic legendary nearing 30th level would be... intimidating. You are in effect a god by that level and adding mythic onto that might be a bit overkill. Checks and balances are needed.
I really hated epic content in 3.5 so I am strongly biased against it.
I find epic levels just higher numbers. 70's pinball machines scored in the hundreds. The last pinball game I played scored in the billions and I am not that much better.
Lastly and this is key to me. In Forgotten Realms many npcs were ridiculous level. Players ran around like d list heroes cleaning drains that Dritzzt and Elminster could not be troubled with. In Golarion the heroes seem to me to be very much the heroes. Sure there are forces beyond them but they world feels balanced in such a way that feels very different. Epic levels mean epic enemies and NPCs and epic level government resources.
Please dear God no epic levels.
I really hated epic content in 3.5 so I am strongly biased against it.
Please dear God no epic levels.
you understand this is a REPRINT of our legendary levels books right? They are some of little reds best sellers. Of course it's not like every single does legendary, and the ones that do aren't necessarily doing FULL legendary. however these rules (unlike the previous epic rules I suspect) have been playtested, extensively so. Truth be told legendary isn't for everyone, but the wallet vote has been made. The people asked for more.
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you understand this is a REPRINT of our legendary levels books right? They are some of little reds best sellers. Of course it's not like every single does legendary, and the ones that do aren't necessarily doing FULL legendary. however these rules (unlike the previous epic rules I suspect) have been playtested, extensively so. Truth be told legendary isn't for everyone, but the wallet vote has been made. The people asked for more.I really hated epic content in 3.5 so I am strongly biased against it.
Please dear God no epic levels.
No I am really sorry I did not realize what sub forum this was. I saw Epic level and thought of the WOTC Epic Handbook.
No I am really sorry I did not realize what sub forum this was. I saw Epic level and thought of the WOTC Epic Handbook.you understand this is a REPRINT of our legendary levels books right? They are some of little reds best sellers. Of course it's not like every single does legendary, and the ones that do aren't necessarily doing FULL legendary. however these rules (unlike the previous epic rules I suspect) have been playtested, extensively so. Truth be told legendary isn't for everyone, but the wallet vote has been made. The people asked for more.I really hated epic content in 3.5 so I am strongly biased against it.
Please dear God no epic levels.
it's all cool dude, tbh I had the same gut reaction when I first saw it, but these guys have done a wonderful job with it, and I hope to learn a lot from them.
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I would very much like to see an update of Legendary Levels. I am curious to see what you would do differently now.
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Legendary Levels Reprint? Silver Prince want! Silver Prince smash puny PCs in Neutron Star Golem!
All joking aside, I would open my wallet for this book for sure! I especially want more options to make PCs feel like the demigods they essentially are at that point, some more rules for godly characters including ideas for handling planar servitors (I want a full legion of angelic warriors at my behest when I achieve apotheosis!), and new monsters to torment my hapless player characters with!
@The Silver Prince
We'd be diving into the divinity score aspect a bit more thats for sure.
1. I think that's something we can probably work out. We will have to find a way to do that. Maybe offer a discount code for DriveThru to all previous orders or something. We'd have to find a way for d20 and paizo.com customers. If we can work out the logistics, that's an idea we are 100% behind.
2. It would include material from ALL legendary levels products plus new stuff and reworking of the old stuff.
So we had a meeting regarding the direction we will be taking this year in terms of what flagship products we will be launching and it looks like our next major endeavor after Dragon Tiger Ox will be the Legendary Levels Compendium.
We will have Jack Holiday from Dragon Tiger Ox (need I say more?) is scheduled to do the artwork for the Legendary Levels Compendium. We will be using Kickstarter funding once again (the art budget is going to be huge) to try to bring you guys the best possible product.
We can't WAIT to work on this one and we will defiantly be taking into account the feedback we got from this thread.
Is going to be OGC?
What about convert all Epic in SRD, that will be awesome.
The first Legendary Levels and all subsequent books are open content. This one will be as well.
If John Reyst and his crew are up for it, we'd be happy to toss it up on the PFSRD.
@Ravensclaw
We would definitely be working on a legendary invoker as well as legendary versions of some of our popular base classes.
Regarding prestige classes, we need to think on that a bit more on how we want to do them. We shied away from them the first time due to time constraints.
TECHNICALLY a legendary class is a prestige class (well... kind of), but I can see an expansion to legendary levels for like duelist or mystic theurge (true dweomers AND sacred spells? O.o).
Assassin would give us a bit of a problem- it's assassinate really loses its teeth once legendary damage comes into play (legendary rogue takes care of that pretty well).
I'd be interested personally in taking a look at true necromancer as a potential candidate.
I think we might have to have other publishers contact us regarding classes so we don't step on toes,
though I'm sure they would be happy for us to expand upon it. Dielock might be fun to do.
I'd like to think of myself as bombastic rather than dynamic personally.
Hmm... a lot of good points have been raised in this thread. Designing anything for levels that are too high or too low really is a challenge, huh?
Part of me is wondering if it would be better to reset the math somehow - characters are able to trade in their old powers and equipment for new skills and such that have vastly different effects and powers - damage as a percent, perhaps, or something like the above-mentioned Legendary Points system where everything is converted to a new sort of HP and balanced accordingly. That might be one of the only ways of dealing with the old variations, and if players got to trade their hard-won items for new things, they might feel that the quest to get the old stuff remains worthwhile, even as their characters undergo some sort of ascension. How exactly this would work would be up to the fluff, of course, but it might be possible.
At the same time, I think any opponents at this sort of level would require a special method to defeat - anything that's truly legendary as a foe shouldn't be possible to beat by min-maxing stats or casting Wish/Miracle. Succeeding on a series of difficult checks might work (with accompanying flavor - working together to create a crack in armor, performing a special attack to bash it open, and then managing a very difficult critical hit, possibly several, to finally end things), or something that's far more about roleplaying than fighting.
Another awkward part is keeping things suitable for all classes - with the upcoming expansion, we have many more basic classes to play with, and that's not counting 3PP material. Also as mentioned above, people shouldn't feel like their "style" needs to be abandoned once they hit Level 20. It might be worthwhile to give them something really nice to play with; for example, every other Legendary Level gives them a Skill that's taken to a truly legendary level each time - Stealth might always have a bonus of 99 (regardless of points), or an insanely high Flight skill could allow for trying to get through some hideously complex zones. Nothing that solves all problems for the players, but would be used on a semi-regular basis and allow the players to feel like they're really accomplishing something.
I guess... if I have any advice at all to give, it's this: think about how you want people to play a Legendary game and develop for that. The game is too large, and too complicated, to perfectly account for every possibility the players might come up with. To do this right (and allow for reasonable balance), changes are inevitable - accept that, move on, and leave it to the GMs to explain how the characters will be entering a new world if they choose to continue on... they'll have to approach situations in new ways, come up with new strategies, and otherwise ascend to a higher level than they've been at. If you can't come up with the right feel, I'm not sure this is going to work - but if you can, I think the end result would be fantastic.
That's my view, anyway. ^^
That's very similar to what we did with the original book series.