Why generate stats at all using point buy? Why not just let the GM pick the optimum stats for each class build and you simply get those stats when you select that type of character. It would be fairer than basic point buy. And that's what you want is fairness, right?You missed the part of the discussion where people talked about using stat arrays, didn't you?
Not at all. Stat arrays ARE the only fair way to assign stats. I just prefer rolling despite or perhaps because of it's much noted flaws.
Not at all. Stat arrays ARE the only fair way to assign stats. I just prefer rolling despite or perhaps because of it's much noted flaws.
Indeed, and that's why I'm considering just assigning stats from now on to get around the inflexibility of arrays.
It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.Having to deal with low stats? True.
Making memorable, beloved characters? Happens all the time.
You missed the point. This crazy personality grew out of the low stats. They inspired me to create her that way. Had I used point buy she probably would have turned out very differently.
Indeed, and that's why I'm considering just assigning stats from now on to get around the inflexibility of arrays.Not at all. Stat arrays ARE the only fair way to assign stats. I just prefer rolling despite or perhaps because of it's much noted flaws.
Congrats. I hope it works as well as I think it will.
Kydeem I am sorry it looked like you were belittling rollers. I will be waiting with bated breath for your examples.
Ok. Your post 2 blocks above is an example of saying the rolled stats made you (and your group) a better role player(s).
I can see how some people would find the situation amusing/entertaining. Sounds like you had fun.
But I don't think, if you were the type of person to not roleplay your character very much, it would have inspired you to roleplay more. If you were that type of person, I think you would have just tried to kill your character as fast as possible so you could replace her with a better one.
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It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.Having to deal with low stats? True.
Making memorable, beloved characters? Happens all the time.You missed the point. This crazy personality grew out of the low stats. They inspired me to create her that way. Had I used point buy she probably would have turned out very differently.
And there are many different ways to achieve that memorability. Rolled stats are one of them.
Kydeem I am sorry it looked like you were belittling rollers. I will be waiting with bated breath for your examples.Ok. Your post 2 blocks above is an example of saying the rolled stats made you (and your group) a better role player(s).
I can see how some people would find the situation amusing/entertaining. Sounds like you had fun.
But I don't think, if you were the type of person to not roleplay your character very much, it would have inspired you to roleplay more. If you were that type of person, I think you would have just tried to kill your character as fast as possible so you could replace her with a better one.
Maybe we aren't communicating well? I wasn't trying to imply rolling is always a sure fire way to get better role play. That would be a straw man. Just that my rolls often inspire my choices in role play. Was role play better with me from rolling? Yes. I wouldn't claim this would be true in all cases.
Why generate stats at all using point buy? Why not just let the GM pick the optimum stats for each class build and you simply get those stats when you select that type of character. It would be fairer than basic point buy. And that's what you want is fairness, right?
For a variety of reasons.
1) The "build" includes everything from race, traits, feats, spells, equipment, skills, alignment, diety, etc... (I also include my intended personality).2) The "build" changes depending upon what happens during the campaign.
3) The "build" changes depending upon what the rest of the party brings to the campaign (this one does not apply to PFS of course).
How can the GM (or anyone) determine the "optimum stats" given all those posibilities? I certainly can't.
If I was rebuilding my life oracle from the current campaign. I guarantee it would be quite different from what I built a year ago. I would change many things including the stats. I have learned more about the game, my GM, my group, and the things I like and don't like. For one thing I think I put way too much emphasis on HP and AC and not nearly enough on my will save and skill points.
So would the GM pick the same stats that I considered optimal at the begining of the PC's career, the same thing I would pick now, or something else all together? How would she/he determine what is optimal?
And there are many different ways to achieve that memorability. Rolled stats are one of them.It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.Having to deal with low stats? True.
Making memorable, beloved characters? Happens all the time.You missed the point. This crazy personality grew out of the low stats. They inspired me to create her that way. Had I used point buy she probably would have turned out very differently.
Yes exactly. Thanks TOZ.
Maybe we aren't communicating well? I wasn't trying to imply rolling is always a sure fire way to get better role play. That would be a straw man. Just that my rolls often inspire my choices in role play. Was role play better with me from rolling? Yes. I wouldn't claim this would be true in all cases.Kydeem I am sorry it looked like you were belittling rollers. I will be waiting with bated breath for your examples.Ok. Your post 2 blocks above is an example of saying the rolled stats made you (and your group) a better role player(s).
I can see how some people would find the situation amusing/entertaining. Sounds like you had fun.
But I don't think, if you were the type of person to not roleplay your character very much, it would have inspired you to roleplay more. If you were that type of person, I think you would have just tried to kill your character as fast as possible so you could replace her with a better one.
And I'm not claiming that rolled stats are the end of the world either. Some groups use them and have a blast.
Some groups will sympathise(sp?) with the guy that rolled really crappy and give him the option of another chance. I have even seen a player that rolled incredibly high ask for a re-roll because he didn't want to overshadow everyone else.
I have sometimes used them as a starting point when I can't think what I want to make for a character. One time I even used rolls to get my character concept in a goup which would not use rolled scores. So after I had my concept worked out. I used their modified point buy system to make as close as I could to the same ability rolled scores.
I can see how they help some people. I understand the appeal of randomness for others. But I think I've seen at least as many times that they caused problems as I have times where they helped. So I don't see them as the tremendous advantage that many people seem to see from them.
Again not saying rolled stats (with a reasonable group) are horrible/aweful/bad-wrong-fun. But I have seen people that will storm out of the house when they find the group uses rolled stats. You would think the group was trying to sell them into slavery. I have seen players that are very self superior and look down with contempt on anyone that uses pointbuy.
I have a moderate preference for point buy over rolled stats. And a preference for some methods of rolling stats over a static array. But with a decent group of players I will give nearly anything a go at least once.
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Yes exactly. Thanks TOZ.
No problem. I actually tried rolling stats for my latest campaign using the grid method. I wasn't really happy with the results, so this thread and others have been helping me mull options for next time.
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lol makes think of the time I played a one shot with an "old school" dm (he was younger than me by almost year, and i'm 23). he had us roll in order(3d6, and no we didn't reroll 1's)...AFTER we picked our race and class. I ended up with the following Str 6, dex 11, con 14, wis 3, int 10, and chr 18. the race i picked before i rolled, human, the class...monk. it didn't go well, I was killed in melee combat by a level 1 elf expert. The dm said that I had to roll up the same character with a new name. I used excesssive profanity and left. That was the only game I ever walked out on, and it was only last week.I love rolling for stats, i just don't like playing them if i roll lowI suspect this feeling is secretly shared by many of us, and how D&D went from 3d6 down-the-line to 4d6 arrange-as-you-wish. :)
See also: How to Deal with Low Stat Rolls
Epic fail on his part. Smart move on your part; no gaming is better than bad gaming.
See also: How to Deal with Low Stat RollsLOL I tried this once and placed my rolled 7 into an elf sorceresses Con score giving me a massive 1 HP per level without the need to pick up any more dice. BUT my friends were SO MUCH loving the crazy lolita goth elf I made that they did everything they could to keep her safe. I died presumably of old age long after the campaign ended. Between them throwing themselves into harms way to save me and a particularly spectacular cleric who's primary occupation was to keep me buffed and safe I led a charmed existence filled with fun and excitement. Had to be one of the most memorable characters I had created in a while. And had the worst stats I had ever rolled. It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.
FYI, you'd get fewer argumentative replies from people who don't really disagree with you if you used statements like "It is the kind of thing that I've never seen happen in a point buy game," rather than using an absolute statement.
Why generate stats at all using point buy? Why not just let the GM pick the optimum stats for each class build and you simply get those stats when you select that type of character. It would be fairer than basic point buy. And that's what you want is fairness, right?
Why roll just abilities and hit points? Why not let the dice determine everything, from abilities to skill points to whether you get a feat at any given level to which spells you learn upon level-up? It'd produce even more creative characters than just rolling for abilities and hit points. And that's what you want, right?
i did a lolita goth half-nymph with 7 constitution and 5 strength from point buy, she was a bard. with 19 starting int and 18 starting cha,
i pumped int all the way
she was a blast to play, she could buff and perform skill checks, but she couldn't really do much in combat
but yes, characters with 7 constitution do happen in point buy, they are the exception rather than the norm.
she survived because the party had the following reasons to protect her. out of 15 PCs. she was all of the following criteria [list]
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lol makes think of the time I played a one shot with an "old school" dm (he was younger than me by almost year, and i'm 23). he had us roll in order(3d6, and no we didn't reroll 1's)...AFTER we picked our race and class. I ended up with the following Str 6, dex 11, con 14, wis 3, int 10, and chr 18. the race i picked before i rolled, human, the class...monk. it didn't go well, I was killed in melee combat by a level 1 elf expert. The dm said that I had to roll up the same character with a new name. I used excesssive profanity and left. That was the only game I ever walked out on, and it was only last week.I love rolling for stats, i just don't like playing them if i roll lowI suspect this feeling is secretly shared by many of us, and how D&D went from 3d6 down-the-line to 4d6 arrange-as-you-wish. :)
See also: How to Deal with Low Stat Rolls
That is SO crappy. You definitely did the right thing :D
Imagine if you had said elf, and rolled a 3 in constitution, though. That'd be kinda funny... How long would you survive with a 1 in constitution?
In organic you roll 4d6 drop lowest in order just like you thought, BUT you can swap one of your generated stats with another. So if Pete wanted a wizard but only got an 10 for his Int he could swap it with another score. Say his Dex was 15 he could trade that to his Int and place the 10 in Dex, all other stats remain locked.Which is why you roll and fit your class to the stats instead, so you get your high stat where you need it and dump the bad stat somewhere you don't need it with the swap option.
The problem with this is winding up in a situation where the only classes you'll be good at are ones you don't like. And since the point of the game is to have fun, forcing someone to play something they don't like is double-plus ungood.
It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.Having to deal with low stats? True.
Making memorable, beloved characters? Happens all the time.You missed the point. This crazy personality grew out of the low stats. They inspired me to create her that way. Had I used point buy she probably would have turned out very differently.
Differently, yes. Worse, no.
And what if you didn't want to play a 'crazy personality'? Why would you want to be forced into that?
See also: How to Deal with Low Stat RollsLOL I tried this once and placed my rolled 7 into an elf sorceresses Con score giving me a massive 1 HP per level without the need to pick up any more dice. BUT my friends were SO MUCH loving the crazy lolita goth elf I made that they did everything they could to keep her safe. I died presumably of old age long after the campaign ended. Between them throwing themselves into harms way to save me and a particularly spectacular cleric who's primary occupation was to keep me buffed and safe I led a charmed existence filled with fun and excitement. Had to be one of the most memorable characters I had created in a while. And had the worst stats I had ever rolled. It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.
FYI, you'd get fewer argumentative replies from people who don't really disagree with you if you used statements like "It is the kind of thing that I've never seen happen in a point buy game," rather than using an absolute statement.
Why generate stats at all using point buy? Why not just let the GM pick the optimum stats for each class build and you simply get those stats when you select that type of character. It would be fairer than basic point buy. And that's what you want is fairness, right?Why roll just abilities and hit points? Why not let the dice determine everything, from abilities to skill points to whether you get a feat at any given level to which spells you learn upon level-up? It'd produce even more creative characters than just rolling for abilities and hit points. And that's what you want, right?
You may be right... but hindsight is 20/20.
I did this once too... It was fun enough, till high level where I ended up kind of a joke. No, rolling is best for stats and conflict resolution not much else. But dice have enough enemies. People would even remove dice from the whole game if they had their way. I like dice, they are fun. Why remove fun?
It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.Having to deal with low stats? True.
Making memorable, beloved characters? Happens all the time.You missed the point. This crazy personality grew out of the low stats. They inspired me to create her that way. Had I used point buy she probably would have turned out very differently.
Differently, yes. Worse, no.
And what if you didn't want to play a 'crazy personality'? Why would you want to be forced into that?
I wasn't forced. I was inspired, nobody held a gun to my head.
I like dice, they are fun. Why remove fun?Because removing dice does not mean removing fun.
Well there are other fun things in games other than dice, but if I like dice why not include them?
Why generate stats at all using point buy? Why not just let the GM pick the optimum stats for each class build and you simply get those stats when you select that type of character. It would be fairer than basic point buy. And that's what you want is fairness, right?
Just because people use point buy does not mean they will make the best mechanical character. Many times they will do what is best for the concept even if it is not the best build possible.
I say both systems are flawed, one of the better systems I have had was where our DM simply gave us an average of what our modifier could not go over (it was 2.2) and as long as when he averaged those stats out he got that, then your character was in the clear.
It made for some neat balancing factors, and simply choosing odd stats didn't really affect the outcome of the character's power level too much, mostly because it was a low level game and we didn't get too many stat points to play with.
This is what I call Hardcore gaming.
Actual 'hardcore' is six rolls of 3D6, first being STR, ...
And you are right on it encouraging cooperation!
Thread necromancy, I know, but this episode of the dungeon bastard sums up my exact feelings about point buy versus dice rolls for stats.
While I prefer the points buy system for its fairness, I do like the more ''organic'' feeling of rolled ability scores.
Point Buy makes assumptions about the game, players, and classes that simply aren't true.
In a game where all classes adhered to the stigma of achieving total balance it really is not an effective way to balance the game between classes who were not created on the foundation of being balanced.
There are many options one has for generating stats, and even those where the player has control over them for the matters of 'achieving a concept' that the player may have preconceived prior to actually sitting down at the table to play.
I think point buy as the end all be all for RPGs really does come from a 'gamer's perspective' view on the game in that players, be them power gamers or not, like to challenge themselves in a way to achieve a level of efficiency with limiting their resources on a level playing field with other players who may be trying the same thing. Ultimately point buy facilitates metagaming in its truest sense and not necessarily in a bad way because it is possible to have fun with it and by the definition of a game it cannot be bad.
I can be quoted on this site many times over as calling point buy system being the spawn of the devil and claiming that it is the worst thing to happen to RPGs, and from my own personal experiences and play styles with the game this holds true, but not because I feel any one way of doing things is superior. On the whole, the idea of the player having control over the character creation process down to the letter is not necessarily bad though it does take away part of what makes the role playing game at the table different from playing something like Skyrim or WOW in that we lose the ability for variance in possibilities due to again that imposed limitation on the resources.
Not unlike players who toil for hours memorizing the possible outcomes of chess matches, or CCG players who perfect combinations and ratios of cards to create desired scenarios, the point buy system has really turned into its own aspect of the game, a game about the game, literally a metagame, and I feel that while it is not necessarily wrong to enjoy this aspect of the PFRPG, it does take away from actually playing the character vs. spending the time to actually craft the character.
Rolled stats are not by any means better, and often they create the variance I was talking about earlier that we want in table top games vs. something like WOW or Skyrim, but not in a good way. Again we try and hold ourselves to this stigma of balance between players and we have to realize that particular methods of playing simply yield different experiences. A metagame can come out of random stat generation as well that is more of a lottery, or gambling aspect, which triggers a completely different kind of experience that players can enjoy.
In any case, for either system to really end up being superior to the other, one would have to balance the aspect of facilitating a player's desired concept for a character without limiting the possibilities of variance evident in the games design.
Hi all i know the norm now is to points buy your stats but i still feel rolling stats is best
Why you ask !
Well for one it prevents players useing a dump stat as you can't lower stats to raise others it also gives you something random in character gen you basicly get to pick everything else so its kind of like " this is what nature gave you make the best of it "
It also reduces the ability of players to min max for the same reason
But mainly because it makes you adapt when you can't control every part of the character as sometimes you just dont get what you want
Your thoughts please and keep it friendly
Point buy is the one true way to play Pathfinder!
That does not mean you can't have fun with other heretical methods.
In all serious, I think the system stopped really supporting rolled stats after AD&D.
Thread necromancy, I know, but this episode of the dungeon bastard sums up my exact feelings about point buy versus dice rolls for stats.
I too enjoyed the sarcastic slippery slope argument. Unless that wasn't sarcasm. Then I am concerned...
Rolled stats can be benefical to balance between the party members IF the GM can convince the high-rollers to play less effective classes and the low-rollers to play more powerful classes, but good luck with that. ;)
my god where did you fig this thread up from !
Must admit liked dungeon bastard i still roll stats just think its more fun having a bit of chance in character gen
my god where did you fig this thread up from !
Must admit liked dungeon bastard i still roll stats just think its more fun having a bit of chance in character gen
I like them too. But the argument against, that poor rolls from one player compared with high rolls from another player make their characters unfairly strong/weak, is too real.
The 'best' version I've found is for the stats to be rolled once (by the GM), and then every player gets to use the exact same set for their characters. No min-maxing, some randomness, yet totally fair for all.
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Or those who prefer rolling telling the point-buy supporters that they have a massive stick up their collective posterior. Anybody can be elitist!
Rolls are just... a very inefficient way to make a character. I don't like rolling low and then having someone else who rolled high derp around with their super stats and make my character the third wheel of the party.
If you're going to just let me keep rolling until I get stats I'm satisfied with (and likely stats you are satisfied with because I think we can all agree that a character starting with straight 18's has no place at the table) then why didn't you just let me pick my stats to begin with? It would've been much faster that way.
If you're worried about me min-maxing and dumping stats I don't need to pump the stats I do need to high levels, then why not use an array? You remove the randomness of the system and ensure everyone has characters that are roughly the same power level before class imbalances come into play.
Point-buys are fine, arrays are fine. Which one I "prefer" depends on how MAD the character I'm building is so a GM won't hear complaints from me with either. Rolling for stats won't turn me away from a game and I'm not going to judge other players for doing it. I guess if you like the gamble of it then it would be perfectly reasonable for you to enjoy rolling your stats. It's just, y'know. Not my thing. I don't like being beholden to the odds and only tolerate it to the extent that I do because Pathfinder is really fun.
...This ended up being much longer than I expected
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I tend to think that when disparity between character ability score arrays happens it is less of a problem mechanically than proponents of point-buy make it out to be.
Thread necromancy, I know, but this episode of the dungeon bastard sums up my exact feelings about point buy versus dice rolls for stats.I too enjoyed the sarcastic slippery slope argument. Unless that wasn't sarcasm. Then I am concerned...
I agree with Dungeon Bastard. Point buy is for sissy storygamers. Maybe it's because of the way I was raised, but when I roll crappy stats, I do what any real man would do: kamikaze that loser! Hey, not everyone is cut out to be an adventurer.
;)
I prefer point buy as often with parties with rolled stats the encounters just seem too easy, but maybe that's an issue with our GMs not being able to balance for it. The rest of the group prefers to roll for stats. Overall I don't mind it too much, especially when looking at the stats of my last two characters:
previous character: 18, 18, 16, 14, 10, 14+2
current character: 18, 16, 14+2, 18, 16, 11
Somehow I managed to get two 18s both times, I didn't want to overdo it by making it three, or turning one into a 20, so my racial modifier went to a 14 both times, making those stats 16s. My current character feels kinda overkill stat wise as there is one 11 on charisma and everything else is either 16 or 18. Running a strength based Kensai Magus with that (so no shocking grasp or scimitar. Frostbite and Katana is what I'm using). Both were of course rolled in front of the group with everybody looking.
We usually roll two rows of 4d6 drop lowest, then we pick one of those two rows. We can take the highest from the other row and replace it with the second lowest of the row we chose. These rows are thrown in order, but we determine which of the 6 stats is strength and the rest fall into position accordingly.
Thread necromancy, I know, but this episode of the dungeon bastard sums up my exact feelings about point buy versus dice rolls for stats.I too enjoyed the sarcastic slippery slope argument. Unless that wasn't sarcasm. Then I am concerned...I agree with Dungeon Bastard. Point buy is for sissy storygamers. Maybe it's because of the way I was raised, but when I roll crappy stats, I do what any real man would do: kamikaze that loser! Hey, not everyone is cut out to be an adventurer.
;)
Yeah but for character creation to be truly random, one would have to roll his class too. :P
Sadly, there is no 18-sided dice.
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At that point you might as well just roll everything. Stats, class, armor type, weapon. Maybe even your level one feat.
I kinda want to do this now just to see how stupid the character I end up with is.
I normally don't use point buy...
We have two methods. One is suggested by the CRB, which is to roll 2d6+6.
The other is that they roll 5d6 and keep 3d6 for their stat (normally the highest).
THEN...and this is perhaps a very important step not to skip, we see that they have a positive bonus. Normally if we are playing a game where we want to have high survivability we want at least +3 in modifiers. In addition, depending on how everyone has be rolled, OR if there is a BIG difference between them with someone with extreme stats, anything 8 and under to be rerolled.
It may not have everyone have "balanced" stats (balance is over rated anyways in a team game), but normally people will end up with stats that they can live with for whatever character concept they want.
At that point you might as well just roll everything. Stats, class, armor type, weapon. Maybe even your level one feat.
I kinda want to do this now just to see how stupid the character I end up with is.
Who knows, it might be fun! Kind of like playing X-COM: Enemy Within with Training Roulette turned on.
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Here is part of my preference for point buy-->If someone rolls poorly enough they are normally allowed to reroll according to most posters I have interacted with on there boards. In that case why not just remove the inability to roll to low with point buy or stat arrays. For those worried about dumping then say no stat below ____ or not 2 stats below ____ or some other limitation that gives everyone equal points, but removes the dumping or at least limits it.
My favoured approach is: roll best 3 of 4d6 in order, reroll if crap (or raise 2 highest rolls to '15's); then swap any pair.
This creates organic feeling characters with their highest stat where the player wants it. It does not have the problem of massive variation in effectiveness you get with 'arrange as desired', which turns the rolls into a build resource.
My second favourite approach is simply to use an array; this guarantees equality, prevents really wonky point buy spreads, and de-emphasises the importance of stats in character creation. For PF, using 16 14 13 12 10 9 works well.
I like to use dice for scores because I get more of a thrill out of rolling an 18 than I do just buying one. I even get excited rolling a 3.
It's true that rolling a bunch of low scores sucks, but for me it doesn't eclipse the thrill of rolling good ones.
Let me preface this by saying I was pro rolling until the following happened. I had been using rolling for the previous 12 years I'd been a gm. I am now pro point buy and will probably never use rolling again.
With my live group I played through three campaigns with. This one girl never rolled below a 14, and had one character with nothing below a 16. She was often times eclipsing everyone else at their own jobs. For instance, one game she was a wizard, and had more Hps than anyone, and we had a barbarian in the party (we rolled hps, but she had 2 18s and one was in con and she pretty much rolled a 6 every time) Everyone else at the table was pretty normal on each character, but she just always rolled awesome for stats, and I watched it happen. One game the gm made us roll races randomly too, everyone gets a human, halfling, kobolod, warforged...and 1% chance of getting a drow noble, which she got. I wouldn't believe someone.could be that lucky if I didn't see it happen time and time again. I can't tell you how many.times everyone at the table felt worthless because she maxed characters in three games with multiple pcs.