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There's a third option actually, stat arrays. It's like Point Buy except everyone gets the same numbers, then you can assign them where you like and adjust via racials.
For instance our DM gives us 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10. Mathematically this works out to 20 point buy, but it ensures that nobody is higher than an 18 in any stat starting out and nobody is below an 8.
I'm partial to rolling ability scores and hit points myself.
Most of the time I like the roll 4d6, drop lowest, reroll 1s, assign where desired approach. That said sometimes I like the roll them in order and see what you get and let the dice start the character creation conversation. Hmmm, I got a high WIS, good CON and low DEX, this looks like a cleric, probably a dwarf.
With hit points I tend to go with max hit points at first level, later levels you roll, but get no less than half the number of sides for your hit die, so if you roll d8, you'll get either 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8.
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Whats interestimg ti me is that so many proponents of rolling are using extea dice or extra rolls or rerolls etc. Just to get more average scores. These methods all reduce the randomness that one must imagine is the only draw to rolling.
I would love to look at a full groups stats made with one of these rolling systems. My guess isthat they would be very close to a group made with point buy.
If the goal is truly to stop people from dumping stats, then just say no sttat can start at less than 10 before racial adjustments. Personally I don't think I've ever started with higher than a 15 using 20 point buy (before racials). If someone really wants to gimp themselves in any place other than their combat stats, rhat is their prerogative... maybe it means they have to spend some skill points ti not be awful OOC. Resources are resources. And if they don't do that either, then they are going to see a negative effect.
I don't punish players for having a low charisma, but if they have a negative diplomacy skill bonus then anyone they talk to for a minute is going to have a chance to dislike them. Fair is fair. Spend to get stats or spend to get skills or feats or items. You can have a 20 strength but with a sub 10 charisma and no skill ranks in intimidate, no one is afraid of you. You just made Lenny from Of Mice and Men.
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Whats interesting to me is that so many proponents of rolling are using extra dice or extra rolls or rerolls etc. Just to get more average scores. These methods all reduce the randomness that one must imagine is the only draw to rolling.
I would love to look at a full groups stats made with one of these rolling systems. My guess is that they would be very close to a group made with point buy.
I very much doubt it. Those extra dice, extra rolls, etc., all decrease the probability of a low score. Point Buy, however, encourages low values for attributes (dump stats) because it rewards you with points you can use to buy up the attributes you think are important.
The frequently suggested modification to point buy (no additional points granted for lowering attributes below the starting value) would eliminate that; I think that method might produce results similar to one of the variants of rolling scores. But only similar to one of them - there's a lot of difference in the scores resulting from the various rolling methods.
Maybe it's the places I was frequenting before during 3e, but back when stats started at 8 and you bought upwards from there, I never heard as much stink about "lowering a stat to get points".
Perhaps back to the old method would garner less attitude for leaving a low stat? (25 points, start at 8, +1 up to 14, 15/16 are +2, 17/18 are +3)
It's the same thing, but perception seems to be 90%* of what's going on here anyways.
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*This % is completely made up. It's use was to accentuate my sarcastic comment.
there is more to a character than the numbers on their sheet, it's when you percieve the characters to be the same in numbers, and thus exactly the same, when the game has devolved into a numbers game
i haven't played barbarians with above average charisma, but i have played barbarians with above average intelligence and wisdom scores, that had a lot more depth than "Hulk Smash." a lot of them were classic "Helk Smash" Races too like Half-Giants, Onispawn and Orcs, though i had to sacrifice that 18+ Str to do it.
I didn't say there can't be a lot of different and even interesting ways to play a given set of stats, but that any given set of stats has a certain range of possible character types.
Given the ability requirements to be an effective barbarian, taken with the limited nature of point buy this forces any barbarian into a given range of stats in order to be effective. This range basically precludes any character that socially or mentally competent. The idea of a Barbarian that is both competent at his job and a genius is impossible without some crippling disability, probably crippling social disability.
The result is that negative stereotypes such as Barbarians, or and main fighter for that matter, is stupid and socially inept, and all casters are weak and frail. Your stupid and social ineptitude and weak and frailty may vary, but you are still stuck in that range without making serious sacrifices.
Example Human Barbarian i built with a 25 point allotment in one of my own games as a Player
Str 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8
the social disability wasn't that crippling, i admit that i could have taken it a step further, with an onispawn tiefling that also had 16 constitution and 5 charisma. but it was still an effective barbarian. instead of a falchion, the guy wielded a glaive and cestus.
on a 20 point allotment, he would have had 12 wisdom and 7 charisma
but he was a 25 point PC and even went for a trip and control build with his glaive with fury's fall to fill the gap using his spare feats. his ranged ability was mediocre, only possessing deadly aim and only using a bow against foes he couldn't engage in melee, often fliers who lacked the ability to gain cover.
Don't get me wrong. I don't hate rolled stats. If it is a good group of players and a decent GM, but they use rolled stats, I am perfectly happy to sit at their table.
I just don't see the advantages supposedly bestowed by rolled stats.
It's more fair - How is it more fair when someone has worse stats than a standard NPC commoner and someone else in the same group has the stats of a titan. It's just random and unpredictable. You can't predict who will have the advantage. That is not the same thing as fair. And there is really no way you can say it is more fair than players starting with the same point buy. this one just doesn't make sense.
Gives unique PC's - I don't see this either. If a player always builds the same kind of characters... Guess what, he will still build the same kind of characters. He will (for example) still put his highest ability in strength, his lowest in charisma, and pick almost the same feats. But very few of the people I have ever gamed with are the type that always build the same kind of character. They use point buy and all of the PC's have been very different from anything else we have seen in the group. Typical example of one player. Morally ambiguous mercenary half-orc fighter, self-righteous dwarf paladin, fearful gnome blaster sorc, now he is talking about trying to make a rogue with a dex of 10 to see if he can make it work.
Fosters cooperation - If your players are the type to cooperate, they will. If not, they won't. I don't see any reason why a rolled weakness will make people cooperate when a chosen weakness won't.
More role play, less roll play - If your players are the type to role play, they will. If not, they won't. I don't see any reason why a rolled number will make people role play when a chosen number won't. Or if they monkey enough with their rolling method, I don't see that it is significantly different from using a high point buy.
I once joined a group that was really proud of how hard core they played. Roll 3d6 for each ability, in order. That's what you played with. The unspoken modification was they re-rolled until they got a set they liked. One guy spent all afternoon rolling dice. Another guy used a spread sheet with random number generators to roll literally thousands of ability sets. So yes they had 2-3 abilities in the 16-18 range and nothing below a 14.
To try and keep it fair, another group rolled stats but put modifiers and conditions on it until they might has well have used point buy. Roll 2d6+6 for each ability. Arrange as you chose. Can re-roll one ability. If the set has 2 abilities with a penalty, re-roll. If you have 2 abilities over 16, re-roll. If you don't have an average modifier of at least +2 re-roll. Etc... Every character in the group was within 2 points of 25 point buy. But it took much longer and a whole bunch of house rules. I didn't have a significant problem with it, but I did not see any real gain either.
False.
Straw man #1: It's more fair. Huh? The only side falsely claiming this is the point buy side. Rollers accept that characters won't be equal (or they use an array option - in which case they are by definition equal). You are confused here because you made this up to support a false argument.
Completely missed point #2: The uniqueness comes from different scores for the same build NOT as you claim for different builds completely... yeah it is pretty obvious that the Fighter will NOT have the same stats as the Wizard or Cleric regardless of what method you use to generate the stats. The cookie cutter effect is well known and documented that for an identical build two characters made with point buy will have nearly identical stats.
The only valid point #3: You have a point in that it is the players not the stat method that tends to foster cooperation. BUT in my experience optimizers favor point buy and they also tend to be more competitive rather than cooperative when playing... I guess you sort of caught me out on that one. But I kind of got tired of competitive play and prefer cooperative play. Since rolling seems to drive away some optimizers I guess I associated rolling with cooperative play incorrectly.
Possible straw man #4: Did someone claim this? If so I missed it. Stat generation doesn't affect role play.
Irrelevant point #5: Citing one delusional group doesn't invalidate rolling. No more than pointing to the one group who uses point buy 80 as an excuse to invalidate point buy would.
Odd point #6: Um... ok? I agree these people probably could have used point buy for all their quirks... I have never seen this in real life though. I would call it a straw man but I am sure there probably are quirky groups similar to this somewhere in that tiny minority that mr. Kydeem seems to use as his excuse to belittle rolling.
Power gamers will be power gamers. There really isn't anything we can do about it.
Saying that rolled stats is not fair but a point buy is when the classes themselves need balancing is fallacy. Typically, rolling really good means you can play a viable paladin/monk/rogue etc. and your power level is usually equal to the guy who only rolled one or two good stats and made a wizard.
Naturally there are ways to tweak both systems to achieve what you want. So what if a DM lets a player re roll a stat that came up less than 5 after rolling, plenty of point buy DMs don't let you buy 18's or 7's because "OMFG overpowered!"
Myself I would like point buy better if PF's point buy wasn't so flawed. Classes should have a base number of points to buy stats with incorporated into their mechanics, and higher point buys will simply be a matter of adding 5 to the total.
Example: The wizard class starts out with base 15 points, the monk starts with 25. High fantasy games give the wizard 20, and the monk 30; epic fantasy games give the wizard 25 and the monk 35.
A monk who has both a DEX and a WIS above +3 is not going to be that game breaking, it really isn't.
Either that, or completely redesign how many points it costs to get higher scores, after all the point of a point buy anyway is to have control over getting those perfect stats, take that away from the players and you may as well roll stats.
Kydeem has a few valid points that i would like to add to.
the dice are random, the goddess of random numbers, has those she excessively favors and those she excessively curses. they are nowhere near as fair as point buy, and point buy isn't as fair as static arrays arranged as desired and balanced around MAD characters. as one whom has been the target of both her blessings and her curses, i know how irksome it is to myself and my party for me to be dead weight, and i know how irksome it is for my party to outperform them. i also know how irksome it is for our party to carry dead weight. a general rule. is if your build can't provide a reasonable contribution by 5th level, we leave you for dead. we don't want to hear about your 13th-20th level plans when we need your help to survive levels 5-12 first
it matters neither what your point allotment is, or what your dice give you for attributes. a player whom exclusively plays one pet build, will find the same way to optimize his pet build, regardless of attributes. even if you have different attributes among the same character, the character's build will generally make the same priorities unless you removed attributes from the equation. i don't see any difference between a barbarian whose low charisma score is a 5 or 7 by virtue of point buy and a barbarian whose low charisma score is a 12 by virtue of lucky rolls, the player will engage in the same habits either way
fosters cooperation? rolling doesn't do this any more than point buy does, the cooperation versus competition is a mindset that won't be changed by a simple modification in how attributes are generated. in fact, many competitive point buy players i know are cooperative, how they cooperate, is by trying to hard to not step on too many toes at once. yeah, we might have a melee oracle and a switch hitter ranger whom both deal massive damage in combat and use CLW wands out of combat, but at the same time, they focus on working together on the same foe, the oracle might heal the ranger occasionally, or the ranger might do well with scouting and traps. the bard will usually chant or dance and provide ranged support or something akin to battlefield control.
random stats don't do anything to encourage roleplay, in fact, i would assume they discourage it, by creating a character you develop less of an attachment to. the point purchased character, is easier to customize in a way the player enjoys more, even if it's a little less than optimal. not every point buy character of the same archetype follows the cookie cutter mold in personality, even if their attributes say otherwise. there are other mechanics you could use to flesh out a character's personality, such as skill choices, traits, or whatever you wish, even with a bland human, the focused study alternate racial, the fast learner feat and a decent intelligence allow plenty of customization on a human fighter to flesh out their personality. when you have 4-6 skill points per level, there is plenty you can do with them. besides maxing perception and maybe diplomacy, sense motive or use magic device, in fact, reserve 1 skill point per level for dips, minimum
the only reason cookie cutter fighters are cookie cutters on paper, is because they neglect the other facets of character creation in favor of a few extra points of damage per round. that 20 isn't neccessary, a 17 after racial bonuses is just fine. for a partial caster, it just means you spend more time buffing or flanking, for a fighter, it means you can focus on more than just damage
the only reason people build one trick ponies, is to show off what you can do by optimizing one facet, most real characters aren't that specialized
it was one specific group from what i gather. but still, that one group might actually exist, and if they are rolling till they find a set they like, why don't they give their characters 6 18's already?
i saw groups like that before. not quite the same, but they might as well had used point buy, i played in a group with 4d6 drop the lowest, reroll anything below 12, must have at least 2 scores of 18 before modifiers. they might as well have simply gone with a 50 point buy and had a lot less issues.
Hi all i know the norm now is to points buy your stats but i still feel rolling stats is best
Why you ask !
Well for one it prevents players useing a dump stat as you can't lower stats to raise others it also gives you something random in character gen you basicly get to pick everything else so its kind of like " this is what nature gave you make the best of it "
It also reduces the ability of players to min max for the same reason
But mainly because it makes you adapt when you can't control every part of the character as sometimes you just dont get what you want
Your thoughts please and keep it friendly
Rolling is good because it helps some people to make interesting characters.
Point buy is good because it helps some people to make interesting characters, and it's balanced.
You do the math.
Also dude, throw a period into your writing once in a while.
I like the semi-randomness of another method that my group has started to use, which also just happens to simulate the score range limiters of point buy:
Take a deck of cards and remove the 4 through 9 of hearts, and the 4 through 9 of spades. Shuffle these 12 cards and deal them out before you in pairs. Add the number value of each pair, and that is your starting score.
The results are 6 (semi-)randomly generated ability scores, ranging from 8 to 18, and due to the way the system works, each high score that you get depletes the pool of higher numbers, and vice versa for the low.
This results in a range of scores, the most bland being all 13s, the most varied being an array of 18,16,14,12,10,8, and everything in between. It's like the best of both worlds. This average character we see from this method simulates somewhere between an 18-22 point buy, but if you want to shoot for a lower point buy equivalent, drop one of the suit's ranges to 3-8 or even 2-7.
If this is done I would roll first and choose a class 2nd. In real life your abilities do have control over what you do. Being a wizard or fighter with a 10 or 11 in your primary stat is not going to be fun for most people.Did I mention I use organic rolls?
No slipping that low roll into an unimportant stat, nope.
Well there is a stat swap but most people use it to put their best score into their primary ability not to tuck a low roll out of the way.This is what I call Hardcore gaming. And let me tell you it is a blast. It also tends to build group cooperation as they try to cover weaknesses in their secondary stats.
Why on earth would you play a primary stat that low? That IS why there is a stat swap. So that even if you had your heart set on a wizard and only rolled a 10 Int, you could swap in the 15 from Dex and still be very smart. You then have a 10 Dex and that may affect your spell and tactical choices, making the wizard play differently from another wizard.
I thought you were saying take the he order I rolled and apply them to the stats. As an example since strength is the first stat listed, I would take a 9 as my strength if my first roll was a 9.
Point buy with my 100/75/50% Rolled HP house rule for the first 3 levels to add some survivability to low level.
It's basically Max HP at first level, then for the next two levels if the player rolls low HP, he/she automatically gets 75% of the hit die (6 on a d8, 7 on a d10 etc.) at 2nd level, then 50% of their hit die at level 3 if they roll low. After that it's pure take what is rolled every level.
Did I mention I use organic rolls?
No slipping that low roll into an unimportant stat, nope.
Well there is a stat swap but most people use it to put their best score into their primary ability not to tuck a low roll out of the way.This is what I call Hardcore gaming. And let me tell you it is a blast. It also tends to build group cooperation as they try to cover weaknesses in their secondary stats.
Man we used to play like that when I was a kid. It was fun.
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Don't get me wrong. I don't hate rolled stats. If it is a good group of players and a decent GM, but they use rolled stats, I am perfectly happy to sit at their table.
I just don't see the advantages supposedly bestowed by rolled stats.
It's more fair - How is it more fair when someone has worse stats than a standard NPC commoner and someone else in the same group has the stats of a titan. It's just random and unpredictable. You can't predict who will have the advantage. That is not the same thing as fair. And there is really no way you can say it is more fair than players starting with the same point buy. this one just doesn't make sense.
Gives unique PC's - I don't see this either. If a player always builds the same kind of characters... Guess what, he will still build the same kind of characters. He will (for example) still put his highest ability in strength, his lowest in charisma, and pick almost the same feats. But very few of the people I have ever gamed with are the type that always build the same kind of character. They use point buy and all of the PC's have been very different from anything else we have seen in the group. Typical example of one player. Morally ambiguous mercenary half-orc fighter, self-righteous dwarf paladin, fearful gnome blaster sorc, now he is talking about trying to make a rogue with a dex of 10 to see if he can make it work.
Fosters cooperation - If your players are the type to cooperate, they will. If not, they won't. I don't see any reason why a rolled weakness will make people cooperate when a chosen weakness won't.
More role play, less roll play - If your players are the type to role play, they will. If not, they won't. I don't see any reason why a rolled number will make people role play when a chosen number won't. Or if they monkey enough with their rolling method, I don't see that it is significantly different from using a high point buy.
I once joined a group that was really proud of how hard core they played. Roll 3d6 for each ability,...
This is pretty much where I'm at with it too.
I thought you were saying take the he order I rolled and apply them to the stats. As an example since strength is the first stat listed, I would take a 9 as my strength if my first roll was a 9.If this is done I would roll first and choose a class 2nd. In real life your abilities do have control over what you do. Being a wizard or fighter with a 10 or 11 in your primary stat is not going to be fun for most people.Did I mention I use organic rolls?
No slipping that low roll into an unimportant stat, nope.
Well there is a stat swap but most people use it to put their best score into their primary ability not to tuck a low roll out of the way.This is what I call Hardcore gaming. And let me tell you it is a blast. It also tends to build group cooperation as they try to cover weaknesses in their secondary stats.
Why on earth would you play a primary stat that low? That IS why there is a stat swap. So that even if you had your heart set on a wizard and only rolled a 10 Int, you could swap in the 15 from Dex and still be very smart. You then have a 10 Dex and that may affect your spell and tactical choices, making the wizard play differently from another wizard.
You still seem confused...
In organic you roll 4d6 drop lowest in order just like you thought, BUT you can swap one of your generated stats with another. So if Pete wanted a wizard but only got an 10 for his Int he could swap it with another score. Say his Dex was 15 he could trade that to his Int and place the 10 in Dex, all other stats remain locked.
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In organic you roll 4d6 drop lowest in order just like you thought, BUT you can swap one of your generated stats with another. So if Pete wanted a wizard but only got an 10 for his Int he could swap it with another score. Say his Dex was 15 he could trade that to his Int and place the 10 in Dex, all other stats remain locked.
Which is why you roll and fit your class to the stats instead, so you get your high stat where you need it and dump the bad stat somewhere you don't need it with the swap option.
In organic you roll 4d6 drop lowest in order just like you thought, BUT you can swap one of your generated stats with another. So if Pete wanted a wizard but only got an 10 for his Int he could swap it with another score. Say his Dex was 15 he could trade that to his Int and place the 10 in Dex, all other stats remain locked.Which is why you roll and fit your class to the stats instead, so you get your high stat where you need it and dump the bad stat somewhere you don't need it with the swap option.
~nods~
Yep that works too, if you're flexible about what you want to play.
I like the semi-randomness of another method that my group has started to use, which also just happens to simulate the score range limiters of point buy:
Take a deck of cards and remove the 4 through 9 of hearts, and the 4 through 9 of spades. Shuffle these 12 cards and deal them out before you in pairs. Add the number value of each pair, and that is your starting score.
The results are 6 (semi-)randomly generated ability scores, ranging from 8 to 18, and due to the way the system works, each high score that you get depletes the pool of higher numbers, and vice versa for the low.
This results in a range of scores, the most bland being all 13s, the most varied being an array of 18,16,14,12,10,8, and everything in between. It's like the best of both worlds. This average character we see from this method simulates somewhere between an 18-22 point buy, but if you want to shoot for a lower point buy equivalent, drop one of the suit's ranges to 3-8 or even 2-7.
I've heard of this too, and it seems like a good compromise for groups that are split on the issue. It's not completely balanced due to even scores being better than odd ones, and for roll-junkies it probably doesn't have the same thrill as rolling those d6s, but close enough for compromise.
The other 'best of both worlds' method I know of is the Potluck Method: each player rolls a set of stats. (Using whatever method the DM wants.) Each set of stats is then displayed, and each player gets to choose which set to use. Multiple players using the same set is okay.
The downside of the Potluck method, of course, is that someone (likely the DM) has to keep a record of all the stat sets rolled at the campaign's start in case new players join the group or PCs need to be replaced. And also, the more players are there to roll, the higher the point-buy equivalent is likely to be. So DMs of big groups may want players to roll say, 3d6 rather than 4d6.
I thought you were saying take the he order I rolled and apply them to the stats. As an example since strength is the first stat listed, I would take a 9 as my strength if my first roll was a 9.If this is done I would roll first and choose a class 2nd. In real life your abilities do have control over what you do. Being a wizard or fighter with a 10 or 11 in your primary stat is not going to be fun for most people.Did I mention I use organic rolls?
No slipping that low roll into an unimportant stat, nope.
Well there is a stat swap but most people use it to put their best score into their primary ability not to tuck a low roll out of the way.This is what I call Hardcore gaming. And let me tell you it is a blast. It also tends to build group cooperation as they try to cover weaknesses in their secondary stats.
Why on earth would you play a primary stat that low? That IS why there is a stat swap. So that even if you had your heart set on a wizard and only rolled a 10 Int, you could swap in the 15 from Dex and still be very smart. You then have a 10 Dex and that may affect your spell and tactical choices, making the wizard play differently from another wizard.
You still seem confused...
In organic you roll 4d6 drop lowest in order just like you thought, BUT you can swap one of your generated stats with another. So if Pete wanted a wizard but only got an 10 for his Int he could swap it with another score. Say his Dex was 15 he could trade that to his Int and place the 10 in Dex, all other stats remain locked.
OK..Other posters in similar thread have proposed it as taking what you get, no swapping, but your method makes more sense so I will assume it is the correct way.
rolling you attributes, whether or not you roll them in order, or choose how you allocate them. can often deny a player a chance to play the character they really wanted to play. especially when certain classes in previous versions of the game had attribute requirements. wanted to play something other than a generic human thief, fighter or magic user? you had to be really lucky. and you had to be even luckier if you didn't want a lowered level cap.
Interesting discussion.
I'm a proponent of point buy because of reliability, but let's look at an array someone else posted. I haven't checked it, but it is supposed equivalent to a 20 point buy.
16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10
This stuff is quite tedious to calculate, so I limit myself to looking at beating the maximum value. The probability that one or more of our dice rolls beat 16.
The total number of possible combinations is 216. We calculate the probability that none of our triplets of rolls are 17 or 18. The probability that we roll 18 is 1/216 and the probability that we roll 17 is 3/216. We add this together for 4/216. The probability that all rolls are below 17 is (212/216)^6. Conversely the probability that at least one die rolls above that is 1-(212/216)^6 = 10%
So in plain english:
Given a standard 6 x 3d6 setup with no special rules the probability of rolling a 17 or 18 is approximately 10%.
A situation where you roll 6 x (2d6 + 6) is looking MUCH better by comparison.
1-(9/12)^6 = 82%
Also note that with this system, the probability that any given roll is 17 or 18 is 3/12 or 25%. That's pretty good!
Nope. I'm not calculating 4d6 drop lowest unless someone donates me bestiary 4 and 5 =D
rolling you attributes, whether or not you roll them in order, or choose how you allocate them. can often deny a player a chance to play the character they really wanted to play. especially when certain classes in previous versions of the game had attribute requirements. wanted to play something other than a generic human thief, fighter or magic user? you had to be really lucky. and you had to be even luckier if you didn't want a lowered level cap.
That was certainly true in those early days of AD&D. But remember there was no such thing as point buy back then either. Thankfully things like level caps and class stat minimums are gone. And I have yet to see rolling keep someone from playing what they want these days.
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Interesting discussion.
I'm a proponent of point buy because of reliability, but let's look at an array someone else posted. I haven't checked it, but it is supposed equivalent to a 20 point buy.
16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 10
This stuff is quite tedious to calculate, so I limit myself to looking at beating the maximum value. The probability that one or more of our dice rolls beat 16.
The total number of possible combinations is 216. We calculate the probability that none of our triplets of rolls are 17 or 18. The probability that we roll 18 is 1/216 and the probability that we roll 17 is 3/216. We add this together for 4/216. The probability that all rolls are below 17 is (212/216)^6. Conversely the probability that at least one die rolls above that is 1-(212/216)^6 = 10%
So in plain english:
Given a standard 6 x 3d6 setup with no special rules the probability of rolling a 17 or 18 is approximately 10%.
A situation where you roll 6 x (2d6 + 6) is looking MUCH better by comparison.
1-(9/12)^6 = 82%
Also note that with this system, the probability that any given roll is 17 or 18 is 3/12 or 25%. That's pretty good!
Nope. I'm not calculating 4d6 drop lowest unless someone donates me bestiary 4 and 5 =D
Are you sure you've got that right?
I make the probability of a 17 or 18 on 2d6+6 3/36, not 3/12.
1-(33/36)^6 = 40% Better than 10%, yes, but not 82%
Right. I'm much better at doing these calculations on paper than doing them in a text document. I forgot a division there. Thanks for pointing that out :D
Is that per roll?
So we'd get 1-((1296-75)/1296)^6 = 30%? That sounds reasonable. Not as good as 6+2d6, but not as bad as basic.
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Yes, that's per roll.
It's a small enough problem that you can get the answer by hand.
There are 1296 (6^4) possible ways of rolling 4d6.
To get a score of better than 16 on the best 3 of 4 dice, you need at least two sixes and a 5. In other words, you need:
For 18: 6-6-6-6, 6-6-6-5, 6-6-6-L
For 17: 6-6-5-5, 6-6-5-L
(Where L is shorthand for all values 1/2/3/4, and the results are sorted in decreasing order)
There is exactly one way to get 6-6-6-6
There are four ways to get 6-6-6-5 (the 5 can be on any of the dice);
similarly, there are four ways to get each of the four possible 6-6-6-L.
That gives a total of 1 + 4 + 4*4 = 21 ways to get a score of 18.
There are six ways to get 6-6-5-5 (the ways to choose two dice out of four)
There are 4*3*4 = 48 ways to get 6-6-5-L
So that gives a total of 6 + 48 = 54 ways to get a score of 17,
which gives a total of 21 + 54 = 75 ways of scoring greater than 16,
out of the 1296 possible rolls.
While I've already stated my opinion on rolling (my playstyle prefers point buy), I forgot to mention another factor of rolling.
Personally, I feel that rolling should be relegated to luck based situations. Resolution for combat or skill checks, etc.
Since my gameplay style is more "character story" than "living world" style (in other words, I have a character idea I want to play, rather than play whatever the world gives me), I don't like the idea of leaving permanent things to rolls or luck.
Hitpoints and Stats are permanent "done once"* type of things and something I don't feel should be left to chance.
I mean, I could dress up the rolls with rerolls and better odds and whatnot, but I should just stop lying to myself and play with non-luck mechanics for these things.
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* I have entertained the idea of rolling hitpoints after every rest. This would make it so a bad set of rolls won't hurt as long, and it can emulate factors (such as sleeping funny, or getting a headache, etc) causing your hitpoints to vary from day to day.
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False.Straw man #1: It's more fair. Huh? The only side falsely claiming this is the point buy side. Rollers accept that characters won't be equal (or they use an array option - in which case they are by definition equal). You are confused here because you made this up to support a false argument....
I did not "make it up to support a false argument." I will try to find examples later. But yes, several times I have heard the argument that rolling stats is more fair.
... Completely missed point #2: The uniqueness comes from different scores for the same build NOT as you claim for different builds completely... yeah it is pretty obvious that the Fighter will NOT have the same stats as the Wizard or Cleric regardless of what method you use to generate the stats. The cookie cutter effect is well known and documented that for an identical build two characters made with point buy will have nearly identical stats. ...
I suppose I didn't state my point clearly enough then. I will try to say it differently.
I was not saying that fighters and wizards have different or the same ability scores. I was saying that I almost never see anyone try to duplicate a build that has already been used in the group to even be able to notice if they would have been the same. Yes, maybe if both Billy-Bob and Jimmy-Joe made the same class, with the same feats, and using the same equipment they probably would end up picking fairly close to the same abilities. But since that never happens, how is it relevant?
... The only valid point #3: You have a point in that it is the players not the stat method that tends to foster cooperation. BUT in my experience optimizers favor point buy and they also tend to be more competitive rather than cooperative when playing... I guess you sort of caught me out on that one. But I kind of got tired of competitive play and prefer cooperative play. Since rolling seems to drive away some optimizers I guess I associated rolling with cooperative play incorrectly. ...
Confusing causation and correlation is common. But I'm not sure I see even the correlation on this one.
Hmm... I would guess you and I might mean different things by 'optimiser.' But the playerse that I would call optimizers are extremely cooperative players because it is more effective. It is something I am constantly pushing with my group because they rarely cooperate well.
... Possible straw man #4: Did someone claim this? If so I missed it. Stat generation doesn't affect role play. ...
If they haven't yet in this thread, then it has been claimed multiple times in some of the other similar discussion threads.
... Irrelevant point #5: Citing one delusional group doesn't invalidate rolling. No more than pointing to the one group who uses point buy 80 as an excuse to invalidate point buy would. ...
True. But I'm not trying to invalidate rolling ability scores. That was just an example (yes, probably a needlessly extreme example) of why I don't see that rolling ability scores really gains anything.
... Odd point #6: Um... ok? I agree these people probably could have used point buy for all their quirks... I have never seen this in real life though. I would call it a straw man but I am sure there probably are quirky groups similar to this somewhere in that tiny minority that mr. Kydeem seems to use as his excuse to belittle rolling. ...
I am not trying to belittle those that use rolling of ability stats. If it came across like that, I appologize for my poor word choice. That was not my intention. I have used rolled stats on many occasions. I have been with groups that use it exclusively and I enjoyed being a member of most of those groups. (The ones I did not enjoy had little to do with the ability score method.)
I have not taken the time to make a list. But if you go back through this thread and the others like it and keep track, I bet you would find at least half of the people that are big proponents on rolling abilities don't just roll the abilities.
They add constants to inflate the average. Re-roll or raise 1's and 2's to inflate the average. Drop lowest die. Substitute a poor ability. Re-roll if you have a bad set. And/or roll multiple sets. Etc...
These are all fairly reasonable attempts to ensure one player isn't stuck with a character ability set that is unplayably far below the rest of the group. It mostly works. I'm not saying it doesn't.
I just don't see what it gains you over using a 30, 35, or 40 point buy (or whatever is closest to equivalent for the method set used). If I have a 40 point buy (which is not totally unreasonable for some of the stat rolling methods I have seen) I can pretty much guarantee that my character won't have a dump stat and will be fairly good on most of his stats because I have to put all those the points somewhere.
* I have entertained the idea of rolling hitpoints after every rest. This would make it so a bad set of rolls won't hurt as long, and it can emulate factors (such as sleeping funny, or getting a headache, etc) causing your hitpoints to vary from day to day.
Now this idea would validate the "We roll damage, so it only makes sense to roll hit points too" argument!
It might get annoying to roll hit points after every rest after a few levels...but then again, maybe not.
I love rolling for stats, i just don't like playing them if i roll low
I suspect this feeling is secretly shared by many of us, and how D&D went from 3d6 down-the-line to 4d6 arrange-as-you-wish. :)
See also: How to Deal with Low Stat Rolls
See also: How to Deal with Low Stat Rolls
Heh, houstonderek did that in my "Burnt Offerings" game. His cleric of Torag ended up with just about the worst stats ever seen by man or dwarf, so he put the lowest ones in Con and Dex and was promptly eaten by a mountain lion.
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See also: How to Deal with Low Stat Rolls
Low stat rolls combined with unsatisfactory party mesh is what caused me to kill of the Magus in my Razor Coast game. :)
I think the main thing about rolling vs. point buy is that you can have fun playing any character. Rolling crappy stats doesn't mean it's a crappy character, only in power games where the DM has to compensate for the expected power level of a group being over the top.
Myself as a DM, I try and design encounters with a bare minimum level of optimization necessary, and as a result, their (my player's) barbarian one shots just about everything, with enough damage to kill it twice over.
And I use Elite Array on my NPCs, and roll stats for boss fights using 2d6 + 6, which is what they used to make characters.
Crappy stats can be fun to play, especially when you stop metagaming. Metagaming is the #1 cause of badwrongfun.
I love rolling for stats, i just don't like playing them if i roll lowI suspect this feeling is secretly shared by many of us, and how D&D went from 3d6 down-the-line to 4d6 arrange-as-you-wish. :)
See also: How to Deal with Low Stat Rolls
lol makes think of the time I played a one shot with an "old school" dm (he was younger than me by almost year, and i'm 23). he had us roll in order(3d6, and no we didn't reroll 1's)...AFTER we picked our race and class. I ended up with the following Str 6, dex 11, con 14, wis 3, int 10, and chr 18. the race i picked before i rolled, human, the class...monk. it didn't go well, I was killed in melee combat by a level 1 elf expert. The dm said that I had to roll up the same character with a new name. I used excesssive profanity and left. That was the only game I ever walked out on, and it was only last week.
Why generate stats at all using point buy? Why not just let the GM pick the optimum stats for each class build and you simply get those stats when you select that type of character. It would be fairer than basic point buy. And that's what you want is fairness, right?
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See also: How to Deal with Low Stat Rolls
LOL I tried this once and placed my rolled 7 into an elf sorceresses Con score giving me a massive 1 HP per level without the need to pick up any more dice. BUT my friends were SO MUCH loving the crazy lolita goth elf I made that they did everything they could to keep her safe. I died presumably of old age long after the campaign ended. Between them throwing themselves into harms way to save me and a particularly spectacular cleric who's primary occupation was to keep me buffed and safe I led a charmed existence filled with fun and excitement. Had to be one of the most memorable characters I had created in a while. And had the worst stats I had ever rolled. It is the kind of thing that never happens in a point buy game.
Why generate stats at all using point buy? Why not just let the GM pick the optimum stats for each class build and you simply get those stats when you select that type of character. It would be fairer than basic point buy. And that's what you want is fairness, right?
You missed the part of the discussion where people talked about using stat arrays, didn't you?
Kydeem I am sorry it looked like you were belittling rollers. I will be waiting with bated breath for your examples.