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I've had it up to here with the constant "discussion" of how Josh's decision for buying scrolls is wrong/ineffective/or misunderstood. The only thing wrong is the people that keep on trying to destroy this rule by Rules Lawyer'ing it to death or pretending that they don't understand.
"All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by wizards, clerics, or druids in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the wizard, cleric, or druid spell list. For example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be
purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list."
We all, and yes I mean all, understand what Josh is trying to do by this rule. (Baseline pricing for consumables) Don't even pretend that you don't, it just makes you look like a fool and it's just plain insulting to the rest of us.
Quit flooding the 3.0 FAQ with this idiotic discussion. At least take it somewhere else where I don't have to view it if I don't want to.
If this RANT gets removed, fine, so be it. At least I got it out of my system.
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+1...you're not the only one that is frustrated with the "asked and answered" question discussions. Sometimes, we may not like the decision/ruling, but continuing to argue it is counter-productive.
+1 I just responded again and felt dirty after I hit submit. In fact, at this point I'm going to go back and remove the post just to eliminate the clutter in the FAQ thread. I just need to keep promising myself I won't continue to feed the troll.
Josh has told us why he did what he did; people who want to dislike the rule can do so, but continuing to pretend to not know why isn't helping their cause.
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Can a witch use a scroll of cure light wounds? If so, is it because there's no distinction between arcane and divine scrolls?
In case you miss it in the other thread:
That said, I do not want the result of this decision to be that bards or paladins have to have UMD to use scrolls off their spell list. They do not have to. They do need to purchase them at wizard/cleric/druid prices, however.
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I hope you aren't referring to my fully legit questions. I parse the text in the society document, and then have questions left over. I don't want to argue about what the price of a whatevermabob is, I just want to know how to calculate it.
Can a witch use a scroll of cure light wounds? If so, is it because there's no distinction between arcane and divine scrolls?
If that's the case, can, say, you get a planeshift scroll useable as a wizard cheaper than normal? If not, why not?
I just want to know what the rules are. If they are so self evident, why don't you give a go at explaining it instead of ranting.
My rant was in response to the constant circling of complaints about the current purchasing system.
But since you asked...
Yes, a witch can use a scroll of cure light wounds. As has been mentioned numerous times, the scrolls that are bought are not classified arcane or divine, the rule is simply to determine the price of said scroll.
My guess, and this is just my guess because I haven't seen an answer to this yet, is that if a spell is both on the cleric and wizard spell list (or druid and cleric, or druid and wizard) you would pay for the cheapest version available. i.e.-Planeshift would be purchased as a 5th level cleric spell.
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My guess, and this is just my guess because I haven't seen an answer to this yet, is that if a spell is both on the cleric and wizard spell list (or druid and cleric, or druid and wizard) you would pay for the cheapest version available. i.e.-Planeshift would be purchased as a 5th level cleric spell.
That's funny because I would have gone the exact opposite route and said my guess would be for the most expensive in this case. :)
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My guess, and this is just my guess because I haven't seen an answer to this yet, is that if a spell is both on the cleric and wizard spell list (or druid and cleric, or druid and wizard) you would pay for the cheapest version available. i.e.-Planeshift would be purchased as a 5th level cleric spell.That's funny because I would have gone the exact opposite route and said my guess would be for the most expensive in this case. :)
Oh no. Difference of opinion on scroll costs! The rule's broken.
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My guess, and this is just my guess because I haven't seen an answer to this yet, is that if a spell is both on the cleric and wizard spell list (or druid and cleric, or druid and wizard) you would pay for the cheapest version available. i.e.-Planeshift would be purchased as a 5th level cleric spell.That's funny because I would have gone the exact opposite route and said my guess would be for the most expensive in this case. :)
I was trying to look for another example, but they are rare. Zizazat, would you please give your reasoning as to why you think the opposite? My thought was that you get it at the earliest available spot. In this case it would be the cleric's planeshift. Maybe a solution would be to list the order spells are taken from the classes. Wizard first, then if its not on the wizard list cleric, and if not on the cleric list druid, and so on and so on.
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I was trying to look for another example, but they are rare. Zizazat, would you please give your reasoning as to why you think the opposite? My thought was that you get it at the earliest available spot. In this case it would be the cleric's planeshift. Maybe a solution would be to list the order spells are taken from the classes. Wizard first, then if its not on the wizard list cleric, and if not on the cleric list druid, and so on and so on.My guess, and this is just my guess because I haven't seen an answer to this yet, is that if a spell is both on the cleric and wizard spell list (or druid and cleric, or druid and wizard) you would pay for the cheapest version available. i.e.-Planeshift would be purchased as a 5th level cleric spell.That's funny because I would have gone the exact opposite route and said my guess would be for the most expensive in this case. :)
As mentioned elsewhere, my personal opinion is that the list resolves in left to right order, wizard, cleric, then druid. Otherwise wouldn't the list be alphabetized like it is in the Core Rules? Unless it's just a weird typo/edit that's it's listed in that order.
Although your 'earliest available' example it would make sense and still keep Lesser Restoration on the Cleric cost and not the Paladin ;)
I cannot express in words how tired I am of this conversation.
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Okay, I've spent over an hour looking for this answer, and since I couldn't find it, I'm posting it here. Please don't lambaste me for asking this or bringing this up. I'm not trying to bash the rule, just clarify a point where I couldn't find an answer.
But, seriously I would like an answer.
When a spell is both on a Cleric and Wizard list (or druid/cleric or druid/wizard) but is different levels, which do you choose for the cost?
I looked in the Core Rulebook and just by the time I got to the D's I had 18 spells that are affected by this.
If this has been answered before, I apologize, but like I said, I spent an hour pouring through threads trying to find the answer and was unable to find one.
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I would think that it would depend on your caster type. If you cast arcane, you use the wizard version and pay appropriately, divine casters use cleric. But it was mentioned that the type of scroll doesn't matter for PFS which I wasn't aware of, nor could I find anything to that effect in the OP guide.
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I would think that it would depend on your caster type. If you cast arcane, you use the wizard version and pay appropriately, divine casters use cleric. But it was mentioned that the type of scroll doesn't matter for PFS which I wasn't aware of, nor could I find anything to that effect in the OP guide.
Right and that's all well and fine for casters.
What about a wand of deafness for a sneaky Rogue? Is it 4500 or 11250?
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Right and that's all well and fine for casters.
What about a wand of deafness for a sneaky Rogue? Is it 4500 or 11250?
My comment was dependent on using your casting skill for the scroll. If we're talking UMD, I would allow the lower priced version assuming that the player would be shopping around to find what he's looking for or having a Pathfinder agent create it off screen.
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Okay, I've spent over an hour looking for this answer, and since I couldn't find it, I'm posting it here. Please don't lambaste me for asking this or bringing this up. I'm not trying to bash the rule, just clarify a point where I couldn't find an answer.
Shieldknight, asking for clarification for the rule is ok, I think Josh's issue is the constant complaint about the rule from some posters, so feel free to ask for clarification..
That said, I see no reason you should not buy the cheapest version, though that is still up in the air...
I would post your question in the FAQ thread though, that is where it belongs, and what it is for.
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I agree with Dragonmoon and TwilightKnight (are you two related?)
Here's how I see it:
- A cleric should always purchase from the cleric list using the divine spell level for the cleric class.
- The wizard/sorcerer should always purchase from the wizard list using the arcane spell level for the wizard/sorcerer class.
- A druid would always pick from the druid list using the divine spell level for the druid class.
- A caster not yet mentioned would purchase the spell first from the the wizard list using the appropriate wizard level of the spell, or if not present there, from the cleric list at the appropriate cleric level of the spell, or if not there from the druid list at the appropriate druid level of the spell. If all three resources do not have the spell, only then do the purchase it from their own spell list at the appropriate level of their own class.
- Non-casters using the UMD skill get to pick from the cheapest list simply because they're trying to emulate some other class.
Just my opinion on how it should be read though.
Slanky's interpretation is exactly the sort of clarification I was about to type.
This sort of clarification will also make it into the next Guide update to make this whole thing just a bit clearer. I'm positive the intent is there, but the rules are not quite there.
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A caster not yet mentioned would purchase the spell first from the the wizard list using the appropriate wizard level of the spell, or if not present there, from the cleric list at the appropriate cleric level of the spell, or if not there from the druid list at the appropriate druid level of the spell. If all three resources do not have the spell, only then do the purchase it from their own spell list at the appropriate level of their own class.
MS, I can embrace you're list. Personally, I think that the type of caster you are, if you are not a wizard/cleric/druid, should determine the cost/access. An Witch, for example, is an arcane caster and should pay the wizard cost for scrolls of spells that are on both wizard & cleric lists even if the cleric version is lower level. Otherwise, the scroll would have a divine "feel."
EDIT...ninja'd by "the man"
So, can we all agree that the rule is now clearly explained and approved?
MS, I can embrace you're list. Personally, I think that the type of caster you are, if you are not a wizard/cleric/druid, should determine the cost/access. An Witch, for example, is an arcane caster and should pay the wizard cost for scrolls of spells that are on both wizard & cleric lists even if the cleric version is lower level. Otherwise, the scroll would have a divine "feel."
A caster not yet mentioned would purchase the spell first from the the wizard list using the appropriate wizard level of the spell, or if not present there, from the cleric list at the appropriate cleric level of the spell, or if not there from the druid list at the appropriate druid level of the spell. If all three resources do not have the spell, only then do they purchase it from their own spell list at the appropriate level of their own class.
I was just going to post something similar, even after Josh's post, that arcane should look at wizard first and divine look at cleric first, but this is my only quibble with MS's list.
I agree with Dragonmoon and TwilightKnight (are you two related?)
Here's how I see it:
- A cleric should always purchase from the cleric list using the divine spell level for the cleric class.
- The wizard/sorcerer should always purchase from the wizard list using the arcane spell level for the wizard/sorcerer class.
- A druid would always pick from the druid list using the divine spell level for the druid class.
- A caster not yet mentioned would purchase the spell first from the the wizard list using the appropriate wizard level of the spell, or if not present there, from the cleric list at the appropriate cleric level of the spell, or if not there from the druid list at the appropriate druid level of the spell. If all three resources do not have the spell, only then do the purchase it from their own spell list at the appropriate level of their own class.
- Non-casters using the UMD skill get to pick from the cheapest list simply because they're trying to emulate some other class.
Just my opinion on how it should be read though.
Using your list, you still end up with the weird case where a witch can buy a divine scroll of Cure Light Wounds, but not an arcane one.
I'd much rather see a simple rule like: "Scrolls/wands/potions are only available to purchase from class lists that go up to 9th level spells." Of course, that means that bards, summoners, etc. get the short end of the stick, but they're already getting the short end of the stick anyway.
No--that's not the case. The witch is buying an arcane scroll of CLW. It's just PRICED like it was scribed by a cleric.I agree with Dragonmoon and TwilightKnight (are you two related?)
Here's how I see it:
- A cleric should always purchase from the cleric list using the divine spell level for the cleric class.
- The wizard/sorcerer should always purchase from the wizard list using the arcane spell level for the wizard/sorcerer class.
- A druid would always pick from the druid list using the divine spell level for the druid class.
- A caster not yet mentioned would purchase the spell first from the the wizard list using the appropriate wizard level of the spell, or if not present there, from the cleric list at the appropriate cleric level of the spell, or if not there from the druid list at the appropriate druid level of the spell. If all three resources do not have the spell, only then do the purchase it from their own spell list at the appropriate level of their own class.
- Non-casters using the UMD skill get to pick from the cheapest list simply because they're trying to emulate some other class.
Just my opinion on how it should be read though.
Using your list, you still end up with the weird case where a witch can buy a divine scroll of Cure Light Wounds, but not an arcane one.
I'd much rather see a simple rule like: "Scrolls/wands/potions are only available to purchase from class lists that go up to 9th level spells." Of course, that means that bards, summoners, etc. get the short end of the stick, but they're already getting the short end of the stick anyway.
** spoiler omitted **
Where does it say that in MisterSlanky's post?
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Here's how I see it:
- A cleric should always purchase from the cleric list using the divine spell level for the cleric class.
- The wizard/sorcerer should always purchase from the wizard list using the arcane spell level for the wizard/sorcerer class.
- A druid would always pick from the druid list using the divine spell level for the druid class.
- A caster not yet mentioned would purchase the spell first from the the wizard list using the appropriate wizard level of the spell, or if not present there, from the cleric list at the appropriate cleric level of the spell, or if not there from the druid list at the appropriate druid level of the spell. If all three resources do not have the spell, only then do the purchase it from their own spell list at the appropriate level of their own class.
- Non-casters using the UMD skill get to pick from the cheapest list simply because they're trying to emulate some other class.
Just my opinion on how it should be read though.
Slanky's interpretation is exactly the sort of clarification I was about to type.This sort of clarification will also make it into the next Guide update to make this whole thing just a bit clearer. I'm positive the intent is there, but the rules are not quite there.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for and will help when I have to explain it to players at my table.
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Where does it say that in MisterSlanky's post?
It doesn't because my list was looking purely at a price perspective. Witches would look at the wizard spell list, not see the spell, then go to the cleric spell list, see the spell and purchase the arcane version of that scroll for the price listed on the cleric list.
I appreciate the whole thing gets confusing when you're trying to think arcane/divine version of the scroll, which is why I think it's important to note that arcane/divine has nothing to do with the cost.
It doesn't because my list was looking purely at a price perspective. Witches would look at the wizard spell list, not see the spell, then go to the cleric spell list, see the spell and purchase the arcane version of that scroll for the price listed on the cleric list.
This.
... which is why I think it's important to note that arcane/divine has nothing to do with the cost.
This x 7,000,000.
... which is why I think it's important to note that arcane/divine has nothing to do with the cost.This x 7,000,000.
And noted that this is a special rule for PFS play and not the standard Core Book rule.
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OMG, it appears that MisterSlanky has some kind of dominate over Josh. He just keeps agreeing with whatever he says. Until, the duration ends, can I submit my wish list?
Yeah, yeah! Can I get the only PFS legal anti-paladin please?!?
See it such an awesome character idea that you just have to allow it. See he's like a Paladin, but he's EVIL! I know, brilliant, right? Nobody will mind just this one. ;)
Where does it say that in MisterSlanky's post?It doesn't because my list was looking purely at a price perspective. Witches would look at the wizard spell list, not see the spell, then go to the cleric spell list, see the spell and purchase the arcane version of that scroll for the price listed on the cleric list.
I appreciate the whole thing gets confusing when you're trying to think arcane/divine version of the scroll, which is why I think it's important to note that arcane/divine has nothing to do with the cost.
Specifically, where I get confused is trying to figure out what problem needs to be fixed.
From what I understand, there are two possible complaints:
- "Buying a scroll made by a paladin/ranger/summoner/whatever results in a scrolls that's unfairly cheap." -- If this is the argument, then the place to fix it is in the Core rules, not in the rules to Pathfinder Society play. And, in fact, Josh pointed out in this post that this is not the case; he says it's a PFS-only problem that he's trying to fix.
- "It's unreasonable to assume that you can buy a scroll made by a paladin/ranger/summoner/whatever in Pathfinder Society play. In a home campaign, it would probably be very difficult to find paladins/rangers/etc. who create scrolls, so we'll make them difficult to find in PFS play as well." -- If this is the argument, then it doesn't make much sense that you can easily find 1st level bard scrolls of Timely Inspiration (say), but that you can't find 1st level bard scrolls of Hideous Laughter. A rule like I suggested above (only "full caster classes" make scrolls) would make much more sense.
Of course, it could be something else altogether, but those are the only two complaints I can think of. Am I missing something?
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"Buying a scroll made by a paladin/ranger/summoner/whatever results in a scrolls that's unfairly cheap." -- If this is the argument, then the place to fix it is in the Core rules, not in the rules to Pathfinder Society play. And, in fact, Josh pointed out in this post that this is not the case; he says it's a PFS-only problem that he's trying to fix.
Am I missing something?
There are like two other threads where this has been talked to death. Basically it's not a Core problem in as much as the interaction with the '2 PA' purchase for a wand that should be a 2nd level (4500 gp) means much earlier access to spells that should be out of reach for awhile longer. Lesser Restoration, I'm looking at you!
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Something that doesn't need to be repeated.
Is this JM in disguise?
Seriously, this is not going to be answered anymore. DROP IT!
Got a question about how the rule works? Ask that, but enough with the theoretical/I disagree crap. Please, just stop. Before you type anything about this rule, stop yourself and ask, "Am I asking about how the rule works or am I asking why the rule is in place?" If its the later, than cancel your post and move on.
There are like two other threads where this has been talked to death. Basically it's not a Core problem in as much as the interaction with the '2 PA' purchase for a wand that should be a 2nd level (4500 gp) means much earlier access to spells that should be out of reach for awhile longer. Lesser Restoration, I'm looking at you!"Buying a scroll made by a paladin/ranger/summoner/whatever results in a scrolls that's unfairly cheap." -- If this is the argument, then the place to fix it is in the Core rules, not in the rules to Pathfinder Society play. And, in fact, Josh pointed out in this post that this is not the case; he says it's a PFS-only problem that he's trying to fix.
Am I missing something?
Why is that not a Core problem? Can you link me to the post where this was explained? I've been following this discussion very carefully, but perhaps I missed a thread or a post where the PFS/non-PFS difference is explained in detail.