Ways of getting infinite arrows


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I always liked the West End Games Star Wars rules on ammo - you always have enough, until a dramatically and situationally appropriate time, when you don't.


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As others have said tracking mundane non-special material, non-blanched arrows isn't worth it after a couple of levels.
If your DM still insists you just buy an efficient quiver and a handy haversack (which you were going to buy), the 60 arrows that the efficient quiver can hold is more than enough for a single combat, then after the combat you refill your efficient quiver with arrows you pull out from your handy haversack, which can hold an infinite amount of arrows.
If you find yourself (at really high levels) spending more arrows in a fight than your efficient quiver provides you, then you simply buy another one, it's a slotless item.


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Lemmy wrote:
I never cared about tracking mundane arrows or any other ammunition. Not even bullets. It is simply not worth the effort. It adds nothing to game balance and wastes time that could be used doing something far more interesting.

(Not picking on you Lemmy, but this statement pretty much sums up your side of the argument.)

How do you define, "More interesting?" (Rhetorical question).
Sure, if all you want to do is jump into the dungeon, kill all the monsters, and gather as much gold as you can carry, the end - then counting your arrows/food/etc isn't likely fun for you.
However, if you consider character immersion important/fun/whatever, then you have to actually immerse into said character, and that means dealing with mundane hardships as well as campaign plots. Maybe no one knows Knowledge: Nature, so how do you know what berry is safe and what berry is poisonous? Maybe no one's concept included Survival, so hunting/fishing/etc is possible (via untrained rolls), but harder than it otherwise would be.
Maybe your horse got spooked and all your extra quivers were in the saddlebags.

Etc.


The custom crafting rules allow you to put a constant enchantments on items under the following formula.

spell level x caster level x 2000 gp
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#Table-Estimating-Magic-Item-Gold-Piece- Values
You can put the spell abundant ammunition on a quiver and have it enchanted for a total cost of 2k. It's not cheap but I think it's a fair compromise.


That is not an appropriate price for a quiver of unlimited arrows, not even by the formulas.

PRD Link to Item Creation:
"Footnote 2: If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half."

Plus:

"Footnote 3: An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double."

That makes it at least 8000gp.

Here's an item I allowed for one of my players:

QUIVER OF STEADY ARROWS
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 11th
Slot none; Price 8000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This appears to be a typical arrow container capable of holding about 20 arrows. Any non-magical arrows removed from the quiver in a round disappear at the start of the next round, and are immediately replaced in the quiver. If a spell or effect that enhances arrows is cast upon the quiver, the next 50 arrows drawn from the quiver will be affected by that spell (assuming it can affect 50 arrows).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, abundant ammunition; Cost 4000 gp

Shadow Lodge

Endless Ammunition, from Ultimate Equipment


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I think its weird that so many people here assume that arrows were not meant to be tracked or that Paizo doesn't consider this a balancing factor. Make me wonder why they would make this:

Weapon enchantment: Endless Ammunition

Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

Only bows and crossbows can be made into endless ammunition weapons—firearms and other projectile weapons cannot. Each time an endless ammunition weapon is nocked, a single non-magical arrow or bolt is spontaneously created by the magic, so the weapon's wielder never needs to load the weapon with ammunition.

If the wielder attempts to load the weapon with other ammunition, the created arrow or bolt immediately vanishes and the wielder can load the weapon as normal. This ability does not reduce the amount of time required to load or fire the weapon. The created arrow or bolt vanishes if removed from the weapon; it persists only if fired. Unlike normal bow and crossbow ammunition, these arrows and bolts are always destroyed when fired.

Seems to me that its worth a +2 bonus... so pretty valuable.


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@Lord Malkov
No it's not worth a +2 enchantement bonus, you just found another overpriced and useless enchantement, if you look there are dozens of them in that book alone.
My way of doing thing comes a lot cheaper.


leo1925 wrote:

@Lord Malkov

No it's not worth a +2 enchantement bonus, you just found another overpriced and useless enchantement, if you look there are dozens of them in that book alone.
My way of doing thing comes a lot cheaper.

Clarification:

Seems to me that Paizo feels it is worth a +2 enhancement bonus.

I would agree that a handy haversack and an efficient quiver are the best option. Not to mention that both of those are excellent items with other uses. You can store more than just arrows in both. Efficient Wand Quiver anyone? A +2 enhancement bonus seems high to me (a +1 might be too low, seems like this should have been just a +4000 gold enchantment)

But it illustrates that Paizo does, in fact, assume that people are keeping track of arrows.

Sovereign Court

leo1925 wrote:

@Lord Malkov

No it's not worth a +2 enchantement bonus, you just found another overpriced and useless enchantement, if you look there are dozens of them in that book alone.
My way of doing thing comes a lot cheaper.

Cheaper, but not entirely accurate. A handy haversack can carry ~133 arrows in the side pouches and ~533 in the main compartment (this is due to the weight limits for those compartments). Granted it is enough to last quite a while, even if you are an archer who manages to fire of 14 arrows per round, but not infinite and the only thing in your HH would be arrows (which would certainly not be the case).

More realistically, you would be looking at having 100-200 arrows in reserve in your HH (and then the 60 in an efficient quiver) ... which means the 14 arrow/round archer would be looking at somewhere between 11 and 19 rounds worth of ammo ... an archer running at 6/round would be good for between 26 and 44 rounds ... more than likely enough for an fairly long outing ... not so much if you get stranded somewhere hostile for an extended period of time with no means to resupply.


Neo2151 wrote:

How do you define, "More interesting?" (Rhetorical question).

Sure, if all you want to do is jump into the dungeon, kill all the monsters, and gather as much gold as you can carry, the end - then counting your arrows/food/etc isn't likely fun for you.
However, if you consider character immersion important/fun/whatever, then you have to actually immerse into said character, and that means dealing with mundane hardships as well as campaign plots. Maybe no one knows Knowledge: Nature, so how do you know what berry is safe and what berry is poisonous? Maybe no one's concept included Survival, so hunting/fishing/etc is possible (via untrained rolls), but harder than it otherwise would be.
Maybe your horse got spooked and all your extra quivers were in the saddlebags.Etc.

For me, immersion and character development don't come from keeping track of arrows and rations. It comes from role playing the character's personality, quirks and abilities.

Maybe no one rolled a Ranger or thought about investing in Kn(Nature), but even novice adventurers would buy some arrows when necessary and/or pick them from the corpses of fallen opponents, maybe even craft their own. And those same novices would remember to buy rations at the next town or simply catch a rabbit or pick apples or berries or something like that. It's not like you need to be a high-level superhuman hero to remember those details.

But for the players, it's a boring "speak tax". They are not making any decision of facing any real difficulty, they are simply saying "I pick my arrows" and "I buy rations" time and time again, and maybe deducting a few silver pieces from their mountain of gold. It adds nothing but an extra sentence to the game and bookkeeping of a insignificant amount of gold.

Asking them to make a Survival check to decide if they find food in a common forest seems as pointless as rolling Diplomacy to decide if they get the villager to tell them what time is it. Unless there is some special circumstance that make those tasks unusually difficult, like the examples I mentioned in my previous post, those things are just a waste of precious game time that could be spent on something more fun, something that actually adds to the character.


Buy a few pearls of power, level 1. Ask your mage to keep up an unseen servant (Johnny-on-the-spot) for you to hand you more quivers and arrows as required.


I play an archer in a Carrion Crown game currently, and my wife played an archer in my homebrew campaign. We both keep track of our arrows. Or at least I did until I purchased an efficient quiver of abundant ammunition (I think my DM charged me 9,800 gp for it). Keeping track of arrows was becoming tiresome and I wasn't even asking about arrow breakage. I would just mark off every other arrow. When our CC game got to the point where I was using arrows of various kinds (silver, adamantine, cold iron, with piercing and blunt versions of each just for grins) then it just became so much more effective and fun to get the quiver and call it good.

I now consider the quiver a staple of archer builds (at the appropriate level) in my games. Prior to that you can have an endless amount of normal piercing arrows and I won't worry about it. If you want anything out of the ordinary, though, you need to keep track of it.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a couple posts. Leave personal insults out of the conversation.


Lord_Malkov wrote:
But it illustrates that Paizo does, in fact, assume that people are keeping track of arrows.

How so?


Dosgamer wrote:

I play an archer in a Carrion Crown game currently, and my wife played an archer in my homebrew campaign. We both keep track of our arrows. Or at least I did until I purchased an efficient quiver of abundant ammunition (I think my DM charged me 9,800 gp for it). Keeping track of arrows was becoming tiresome and I wasn't even asking about arrow breakage. I would just mark off every other arrow. When our CC game got to the point where I was using arrows of various kinds (silver, adamantine, cold iron, with piercing and blunt versions of each just for grins) then it just became so much more effective and fun to get the quiver and call it good.

I now consider the quiver a staple of archer builds (at the appropriate level) in my games. Prior to that you can have an endless amount of normal piercing arrows and I won't worry about it. If you want anything out of the ordinary, though, you need to keep track of it.

The name's just brilliant!!

As I understood arrow usage. Only half of the arrows that do not hit the target can be retrieved in one piece and not all arrows. So all arrows that hit a target are destroyed anyway.
I think that keeping track of your supplies and that includes ammunition makes the game more fun and challenges a player to carefully manage his/her recources.

Question:
Abundant ammunition only replaces non-magical ammunition. And that made me wonder if arrows enchanted by a Greater Magic Weapon will be replaced as the enchantment is temporary????
And when the duration would be greater then 24 hours (the enchantment would be considered permanent for magic bonusses) and the Abundant Ammunition enchantment would replace the arrows with a temporary enchantment, I fear that the arrows fired after 24 hours will not be replaced!!!
Any thoughts on that one????


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karossii wrote:

Don't like either solution? Play a different style/class of character, or go play an MMO*..

*I am not anti-MMO. I am not a WOW addict, but I invest a few hours a month playing some other MMOs, and I enjoy them in general. But they are as different from roleplaying as a boardgame is. If you don't enjoy roleplaying, stick to what you enjoy.

Funfact: WoW used to make you count your arrows, and if you were out you were out until you could find a vendor. It also used to be every person hit in a Volley would count as one lost arrow, causing you to lose arrows by the dozens in an AoE mosh. Your quiver took up one of your bag slots, leaving you with one less bag to carry your lootz. They did however eventually remove the need to carry a quiver and arrows, and to be honest that was just fine and I never missed it.

Its not actually uncommon for video games to make you count your arrows. Why, how, and whether it means anything varies from game to game.


zylphryx wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

@Lord Malkov

No it's not worth a +2 enchantement bonus, you just found another overpriced and useless enchantement, if you look there are dozens of them in that book alone.
My way of doing thing comes a lot cheaper.

Cheaper, but not entirely accurate. A handy haversack can carry ~133 arrows in the side pouches and ~533 in the main compartment (this is due to the weight limits for those compartments). Granted it is enough to last quite a while, even if you are an archer who manages to fire of 14 arrows per round, but not infinite and the only thing in your HH would be arrows (which would certainly not be the case).

More realistically, you would be looking at having 100-200 arrows in reserve in your HH (and then the 60 in an efficient quiver) ... which means the 14 arrow/round archer would be looking at somewhere between 11 and 19 rounds worth of ammo ... an archer running at 6/round would be good for between 26 and 44 rounds ... more than likely enough for an fairly long outing ... not so much if you get stranded somewhere hostile for an extended period of time with no means to resupply.

Fine, put a few hundred of them in the group's biggest bag of holding, that in addition to the ones you already have should have pretty covered.

Sovereign Court

leo1925 wrote:
zylphryx wrote:
leo1925 wrote:

@Lord Malkov

No it's not worth a +2 enchantement bonus, you just found another overpriced and useless enchantement, if you look there are dozens of them in that book alone.
My way of doing thing comes a lot cheaper.

Cheaper, but not entirely accurate. A handy haversack can carry ~133 arrows in the side pouches and ~533 in the main compartment (this is due to the weight limits for those compartments). Granted it is enough to last quite a while, even if you are an archer who manages to fire of 14 arrows per round, but not infinite and the only thing in your HH would be arrows (which would certainly not be the case).

More realistically, you would be looking at having 100-200 arrows in reserve in your HH (and then the 60 in an efficient quiver) ... which means the 14 arrow/round archer would be looking at somewhere between 11 and 19 rounds worth of ammo ... an archer running at 6/round would be good for between 26 and 44 rounds ... more than likely enough for an fairly long outing ... not so much if you get stranded somewhere hostile for an extended period of time with no means to resupply.

Fine, put a few hundred of them in the group's biggest bag of holding, that in addition to the ones you already have should have pretty covered.

The point is, leo, that while this should work for most cases, it is still a finite amount of ammo that would need to be replaced over time. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of this method (carrying bundles of arrows in extra-dimensional spaces), but it does not solve the issue of having infinite ammo.

For that you do need the enhancement.


Snowleopard wrote:

The name's just brilliant!!

As I understood arrow usage. Only half of the arrows that do not hit the target can be retrieved in one piece and not all arrows. So all arrows that hit a target are destroyed anyway.
I think that keeping track of your supplies and that includes ammunition makes the game more fun and challenges a player to carefully manage his/her recources.

Question:
Abundant ammunition only replaces non-magical ammunition. And that made me wonder if arrows enchanted by a Greater Magic Weapon will be replaced as the enchantment is temporary????
And when the duration would be greater then 24 hours (the enchantment would be considered permanent for magic bonusses) and the Abundant Ammunition enchantment would replace the arrows with a temporary enchantment, I fear that the arrows fired after 24 hours will not be replaced!!!
Any thoughts on that one????

I should have clarified. I mark off every arrow that hits and every other arrow that misses. My original comment was admittedly confusing. Sorry about that.

Greater magic weapon works just fine in conjunction with abundant ammunition (per the PRD). How does the 24 hours come into play exactly? Just curious what the issue you see with it is. Thanks!

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fomsie wrote:
I think the folks saying the record keeping is boring and trivial, are missing the point. While early on it is a small cost issue, it eventually becomes a resource and action economy issue as some builds can blaze through arrows, the amount of arrows you can have at hand is an important limitation to ranged combat. Much like a spell caster with limited blasting capability due to number of spells, an archer character needs to manage their ammunition wisely. It is a balancing factor, a limitation on the power a rapid, ranged attack has over a melee strike.

The fact that players are willing to pay a fair amount of money to NOT have to do the record keeping should be an indicator that it doesn't add much to the game. Every player in my game quickly ponied up the cash for a Handy Haversack. Why? It was worth 2,000 gp to them to NOT have to keep track of encumbrance.

Does encumbrance help balance characters? Does a handy haversack somehow take away from the player that chose to play a dwarf?

If it's not fun, it's not fun... and ultimately, I want my players to be having fun.


Dosgamer wrote:
Snowleopard wrote:

The name's just brilliant!!

As I understood arrow usage. Only half of the arrows that do not hit the target can be retrieved in one piece and not all arrows. So all arrows that hit a target are destroyed anyway.
I think that keeping track of your supplies and that includes ammunition makes the game more fun and challenges a player to carefully manage his/her recources.

Question:
Abundant ammunition only replaces non-magical ammunition. And that made me wonder if arrows enchanted by a Greater Magic Weapon will be replaced as the enchantment is temporary????
And when the duration would be greater then 24 hours (the enchantment would be considered permanent for magic bonusses) and the Abundant Ammunition enchantment would replace the arrows with a temporary enchantment, I fear that the arrows fired after 24 hours will not be replaced!!!
Any thoughts on that one????

I should have clarified. I mark off every arrow that hits and every other arrow that misses. My original comment was admittedly confusing. Sorry about that.

No offence taken and thanx for the clarification.

Dosgamer wrote:
Greater magic weapon works just fine in conjunction with abundant ammunition (per the PRD). How does the 24 hours come into play exactly? Just curious what the issue you see with it is. Thanks!

After 24 hours a temporary bonus turns into a permanent bonus for game technics. Example: if you use magic that raises a stat, it is not considered permanent (and treated as an actual stat increase) and only temporary bonusses are applied like skill improvements and extra damage. Extra spells for high wis/int/cha do not apply until after 24 hours of continued effect of that raised stat. If a cleric with a headband of increase wisdom +2 walks into a magic dead zone. He/She will lose the extra spells associated with the higher wisdom. And he/she cannot regain those spells untill a 24 hour period has passed and he/she can memorise them again.

Amunnition that was enhanced by a Greater Magic spell could be enchanted for a period longer then 24 hours. And I think that the game would then technically count the arrow as a permanent magic item and not consider it a mundane arrow anymore and therefor the abundant ammunition spell/effect would not replace it, after firing.

I know, it's a bit of a non-issue as you would need to be a level12+ caster using extend spell on Greater Magic Weapon, but it might actually happen, so I got curious.


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This thread reminds me of Ring of Sustenance discussions:
One group feels one way, another group feels the opposite, and there's no changing anyone's minds, so discussion just goes in a circle.


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Neo2151 wrote:

This thread reminds me of Ring of Sustenance discussions:

One group feels one way, another group feels the opposite, and there's no changing anyone's minds, so discussion just goes in a circle.

That's the nature of rings :)


For 8k I think the endless quiver is waaaay too much. I'd go the Handy Sack, alternatively buying a wand of Abundant Ammo would work too.


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karossii wrote:
So by that logic, wizards shouldn't have to track their spells cast, right? They just get crippled if they don't get a chance to rest, and it can get tiresome remembering which spells I memorized for the day, and which one I cast and all that...

If you're talking about mundane arrows, the better comparison would be how the wizard didn't have to keep track of how many pinches of sulphur, guano, and other miscellaneous cheap junk is in their spell component pouch. If the archer has their quiver, they have regular arrows.


Last AP I completed, we ended the campaign with hundreds of arrows. Other than those purchased at first level, and some specialty arrows a Ranger Archer Cohort bought, we claimed all the rest as loot. We also gave away hundreds to local citizens. The same thing with potions of Cure Light Wounds.


Vod Canockers wrote:
Last AP I completed, we ended the campaign with hundreds of arrows. Other than those purchased at first level, and some specialty arrows a Ranger Archer Cohort bought, we claimed all the rest as loot. We also gave away hundreds to local citizens. The same thing with potions of Cure Light Wounds.

Was it Kingmaker?


leo1925 wrote:
Vod Canockers wrote:
Last AP I completed, we ended the campaign with hundreds of arrows. Other than those purchased at first level, and some specialty arrows a Ranger Archer Cohort bought, we claimed all the rest as loot. We also gave away hundreds to local citizens. The same thing with potions of Cure Light Wounds.
Was it Kingmaker?

Yes it was. I think everything in that AP had 20 arrows, including the things that couldn't use bows.


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MrSin wrote:

Funfact: WoW used to make you count your arrows, and if you were out you were out until you could find a vendor. It also used to be every person hit in a Volley would count as one lost arrow, causing you to lose arrows by the dozens in an AoE mosh. Your quiver took up one of your bag slots, leaving you with one less bag to carry your lootz. They did however eventually remove the need to carry a quiver and arrows, and to be honest that was just fine and I never missed it.

Its not actually uncommon for video games to make you count your arrows. Why, how, and whether it means anything varies from game to game.

Actually, no video game has ever made YOU count your arrows - the software does it for you, and in Pathfinder if my character sheet tracks my arrow expenditure for me (such as most VTT software), I'm thrilled. When I'm stuck with plain old pencil & paper, I grit my teeth, count every non-magic arrow fired as 'expended' and buy another 20 every chance I get. I only track 'special' arrows - and even then, not all that closely unless they cost more than 50 gold.

Most of the time, we treat such things as 'housekeeping' that gets ignored - it's assumed that we have regular enough access to some source of food/water/ammunition/rope/chalk/etc. that it's only important when we head off to cross the trackless wilderness or delve the deepest dungeon - in other words, when the adventure calls for it.

Would I prefer to have every pound, every meal, every shot accounted for all the time? Absolutely, but unless I'm using computerized character sheets to track everything for the players, it's just not worth the hassle.

.

On the topic of the 'Endless Ammunition' enchantment, I think Paizo made a huge mistake in making it a '+2 equivalent' enchantment instead of a fixed cost enchantment, such as 'Adaptive'. While it might be worth the extra 10,000gp a +1 endless ammunition longbow) costs, it certainly isn't worth the extra 32,000gp for a +3 endless ammunition longbow.


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I agree that it should be a flat cost instead of the +2 enchantment, something around 4000gp in my opinion.


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Snowleopard wrote:
Dosgamer wrote:
Snowleopard wrote:

Question:

Abundant ammunition only replaces non-magical ammunition. And that made me wonder if arrows enchanted by a Greater Magic Weapon will be replaced as the enchantment is temporary????
And when the duration would be greater then 24 hours (the enchantment would be considered permanent for magic bonusses) and the Abundant Ammunition enchantment would replace the arrows with a temporary enchantment, I fear that the arrows fired after 24 hours will not be replaced!!!
Any thoughts on that one????
Dosgamer wrote:
Greater magic weapon works just fine in conjunction with abundant ammunition (per the PRD). How does the 24 hours come into play exactly? Just curious what the issue you see with it is. Thanks!

After 24 hours a temporary bonus turns into a permanent bonus for game technics. Example: ***snip***

Amunnition that...

The rule about temporary acting as permanent is found in reference to ability bonuses. The bonus is not actually permanent but acts that way. At no point does it indicate it is a general rule, so a spell that gives effects past 24 hours are not treated special.

Given the duration of GMW, getting it to last 24 hours will take quite high level. If you did, AA would still work.

/cevah


One way to make tracking mundane ammunition more fun while toning down the bookkeeping, is to tie ammo expenditure to your attack roll.

For arrows it might be: if you roll a natural 1 or 2 on your ranged attack, you expend half a quiver (10 arrows).

This method averages out to the same expenditure with more riding on the outcome of every individual die roll. Yes, it could also result in your new quiver running out in round 1, but them's the breaks.

At the very least you can tie the 50% chance of losing an arrow on a miss to the original attack roll: Odd, the arrow is lost; even it can be recovered.

Liberty's Edge

I'm DMing a game with an archer (ranger) an I'm making him track ammo. Because it keeps his damage in check.
He shoots 5-6 arrows per round with every full attack, and can deplete an efficient quiver in just 10 rounds. But he's dealing longsword damage from 100 feet away with no risk to himself, and making two extra attacks between manyshot and rapid shot. Occasionally running out of arrows is a balancing factor.

Sovereign Court

Have you ever seen an action movie where the hero is worried because he's running out of bullets?

Tracking arrows isn't "interesting" when you've got plenty left. It becomes more interesting if you can't carry an unlimited amount.

I'm currently playing a ranger in 3.5 who's trying really hard to stay within encumbrance limits for himself and his mount, but we're also crossing the salt flats. Encumbrance is a real limit on the amount of food we can bring, and foraging in this desolate environment isn't easy either. That actually makes it interesting; even just going to this place is a challenge.

However, I'm not saying you should always track all arrows. One of the nice things about PF/D&D is that you don't track the same resources from level 1-20. At level 1 you worry about arrows. Eventually you worry about diamonds, but by then you may have picked up a Bag of Holding to satisfy your need for arrows.


I have run out of arrows as a ranger so yeah it does actually matter. I am not saying it is not tedious though.

If the player was really annoyed I might have them get an item such as bag of holding, and drop 1000gp. However if the bag is destroyed, which has never happened he would need a new bag or he could fix the old one.


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Chris Lambertz wrote:
Removed a couple posts. Leave personal insults out of the conversation.

Saw this old thread pop up with a dot next to it but no posts from me. What on earth could I have said about counting arrows that was insulting?


Now I'm curious too... Maybe you told someone to pull arrows out of their ass?


The efficient quiver holds fewer arrows than a backpack. Avoid!

I think nefreet came up with this trick...

Buy a bunch of durable arrows, put arcane mark on them, and use detect magic to find them after the fight.


In an E6 game I would very much make arrow tracking a thing. At low levels I make my PCs do it. They continue to do it until they invest in a solution. If that solution is not infinite then in may become a factor if resupply is difficult.

I really like the idea of a 1 or 2 using up 10 arrows. If you go through 50 arrows in 5 shots that just means that your quiver broke or arrows rotted for some reason.

I can see how a quiver is like a clip but generally 1 will get through a combat.


I would sit down with the GM, and just say.. "hey, this is really a pain in the butt to keep track of ammo. Can we just say i have 'unlimited arrows', unless we are in a crunch situation.. like stuck in a desert/ prison/etc"

if that isn't enough, just ask if he can deduct a "basic living tax" off treasure, as a compensation.

99% of gm's should agree with either/or

ps. if he goes for the second option.. basic necessities should be included - food, water/ non-magical items ( you arent trying to exploit )

Sovereign Court

Auto-restocking arrows whenever you resupply makes sense. But then you should first figure out how many arrows a "full stock" is; so that you can still run out while in the field, and have some "only one arrow left" moments now and then.


Ascalaphus wrote:

Have you ever seen an action movie where the hero is worried because he's running out of bullets?

Tracking arrows isn't "interesting" when you've got plenty left. It becomes more interesting if you can't carry an unlimited amount.

I'm currently playing a ranger in 3.5 who's trying really hard to stay within encumbrance limits for himself and his mount, but we're also crossing the salt flats. Encumbrance is a real limit on the amount of food we can bring, and foraging in this desolate environment isn't easy either. That actually makes it interesting; even just going to this place is a challenge.

However, I'm not saying you should always track all arrows. One of the nice things about PF/D&D is that you don't track the same resources from level 1-20. At level 1 you worry about arrows. Eventually you worry about diamonds, but by then you may have picked up a Bag of Holding to satisfy your need for arrows.

Yes. In 'Aliens'. Most definitely.

Avengers, with Hawkeye.

Sovereign Court

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@RDM42: my point exactly: the reason you track resources like arrows, is because you might run out. And running out of arrows isn't boring, it's scary.


Ascalaphus wrote:
@RDM42: my point exactly: the reason you track resources like arrows, is because you might run out. And running out of arrows isn't boring, it's scary.

I had that happen to me when I was on another plane. It was definitely a game changer. That is why I want my players to track arrows.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Use durable arrows and recover them.

Or buy a bag of holding and 1000gp worth of arrows and never worry about running out.


I allow for mending to fix the arrows in my games assuming any of my players took the spell. I also just say 50% of the arrows were not destroyed to avoid the rolling. That makes things a little easier on the players. Well that is what I would if anyone had an archer anyway. :)


Tarvi wrote:

I'm about to start playing an archer and I'm wondering about ways of not worrying about tracking ammunition.

There's Endless Ammunition but as a +2 modifier that's pretty expensive, is there anything else out there?

Just make it overly simple on yourself: bring 20 pennies (or your regional equivalent), and make two piles: the fired and not fired areas. Don't worry about arrows until you run out, but say that you do, indeed, collect the arrows you fire. When you run out, roll 2d20, divide the result by 2 and round down, that is how many arrows from that set you recovered.

Carry multiple sets (20 arrow groups) of arrows, but keep in mind that quivers have limited space and are actually slotted to keep the arrows from snagging on one another so switching to a new group of 20 arrows should be a move action at least to pull them out of the bag and throw them on the ground for quick loading.

Workflow:
Fire arrows out of set of 20.
Run out.
Roll 2d20, divide by 2.
When less arrows than full attack (with rapid and multi-shot if you have them) pull out new set of arrows.
For time's sake don't worry about the arrows you "lose" when switching to a new set of arrows. If you REALLY want you can roll the break chance out of combat afterwards, but considering they cost 5 cp each, who cares.

Durable Arrows are also a good choice as Charlie Bell pointed out.

You have ammo because you can run out of it.

Sovereign Court

@Taku: I like that idea.

In general, I like the idea of using physical tokens to track such resources; it reinforces the sensation of actually expending resources.

You could actually have a "pot" in the middle of the table where everyone "antes" their fired arrows. If your party wins the combat, you get to gather enemy arrows as well.

You could extend this to using colored poker chips to track arcane pool, ki pool, rage rounds and so forth. Seeing stacks slim down across the table could reinforce the idea that the party is running out of steam and that things are getting dicey.


I still think a quiver should work like a spell component pouch. As long as the arrows fired are not special in any way you always have enough.

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