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My question is about if you get extra mileage out of Marid style when using an amulet of mighty fists with the front ability.
Marid Style relevant part: While using this style and Elemental Fist to deal cold damage, you gain a bonus on cold damage rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Frost: Upon command, a frost weapon is sheathed in icy cold that deals an extra 1d6 points of cold damage on a successful hit.
Would this mean that all my cold damage rolls would deal my wisdom modifier.
For example assuming 14 wisdom
1d6+2 (from elemental fist) + 1d6+ 2 (frost)?
It seems like this is perfectly valid via RAW, but I also feel like I might be reaching a bit.
Except that you aren't using Elemental Fist to deal the cold damage, you are using the Frost enchantment.
The Wis bonus to damage only applies to the feat, not the enchantment.
Samasboy is right.
except it doesn't say "you gain a bonus to the cold damage roll", it says you gain a bonus to cold damage rolls. the plural there suggests that you get the bonus to multiple rolls. Otherwise the grammar there makes no sense.
Basically the way it reads when you use the elemental fists your frost attacks improve as well.
I agree it's entirely possible that it's meant to only affect the feat, but as written I don't see where it states only the feat gains the bonus.
except it doesn't say "you gain a bonus to the cold damage roll", it says you gain a bonus to cold damage rolls. the plural there suggests that you get the bonus to multiple rolls. Otherwise the grammar there makes no sense.
Basically the way it reads when you use the elemental fists your frost attacks improve as well.
I agree it's entirely possible that it's meant to only affect the feat, but as written I don't see where it states only the feat gains the bonus.
If it said "roll" it would happen only one time. It says rolls to let you know it applies to every roll you make while using elemental fist. Do not play grammar games here. It only works when you use elemental fist to deal cold damage.
Come on, the feat says:
Marid Style (Combat, Style)
Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 15, Elemental Fist**, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: You gain one additional Elemental Fist (Advanced Player's Guide 158) attempt per day. While using this style and Elemental Fist to deal cold damage, you gain a bonus on cold damage rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier, and your reach with your unarmed strike increases by 5 feet.
This is pretty clear.
What Sub_Zero is asking is, while using Marid Style in conjunction with Elemental Fist, would you also gain a bonus to damage from a Frost AoMF?
He's not saying you get the bonus to the AoMF when NOT using Elemental Fist.
To me, the wording is broad enough to say yes.
except it doesn't say "you gain a bonus to the cold damage roll", it says you gain a bonus to cold damage rolls. the plural there suggests that you get the bonus to multiple rolls. Otherwise the grammar there makes no sense.
Basically the way it reads when you use the elemental fists your frost attacks improve as well.
I agree it's entirely possible that it's meant to only affect the feat, but as written I don't see where it states only the feat gains the bonus.
If it said "roll" it would happen only one time. It says rolls to let you know it applies to every roll you make while using elemental fist. Do not play grammar games here. It only works when you use elemental fist to deal cold damage.
Come on, the feat says:
This is pretty clear.Marid Style (Combat, Style)
Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 15, Elemental Fist**, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +9 or monk level 5th.
Benefit: You gain one additional Elemental Fist (Advanced Player's Guide 158) attempt per day. While using this style and Elemental Fist to deal cold damage, you gain a bonus on cold damage rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier, and your reach with your unarmed strike increases by 5 feet.
If it was clear, I wouldn't be asking the question.
More to the point, The parts you've bolded don't negate my point, if anything they enhance it.
Marid Style
Benefit: You gain one additional Elemental Fist (Advanced Player's Guide 158) attempt per day. While using this style and Elemental Fist to deal cold damage, you gain a bonus on cold damage rolls(not you gain a bonus on the elemental fist damage) equal to your Wisdom modifier, and your reach with your unarmed strike increases by 5 feet.
The parts you bolded are the qualifiers, not what it enhances.
Furthermore, You can only use elemental fists once per attack per round. This means that there is never a time where you would get a bonus to anything more then a single roll.
Now, I understand that you believe that the feat only applies to elemental fist, and that might be how it was intended, but the current wording makes this anything but certain. In fact via RAW, you get to add your wisdom damage to any source of damage you deal that adds cold damage.
To make this more clear I can make this a checklist to show how this would work in a round.
1. I'm in Marid Style - using marid style check
2. I use elemental fists to deal cold damage- using elemental fists to deal cold damage check
3. I now get my wisdom modifier added as a bonus to my cold damage rolls
Now, as I've said prior, this might not be as intended, but it does seem like it is how it does work as written.
What Sub_Zero is asking is, while using Marid Style in conjunction with Elemental Fist, would you also gain a bonus to damage from a Frost AoMF?
He's not saying you get the bonus to the AoMF when NOT using Elemental Fist.
To me, the wording is broad enough to say yes.
that is in fact what I meant. Sorry if it was unclear, because yes I would most definitely not get the bonus damage if I didn't use both marid and elemental fists during that round.
What Sub_Zero is asking is, while using Marid Style in conjunction with Elemental Fist, would you also gain a bonus to damage from a Frost AoMF?
He's not saying you get the bonus to the AoMF when NOT using Elemental Fist.
To me, the wording is broad enough to say yes.
Thanks for that clarification HG, I had also jumped to the wrong conclusion on his question...
I'd say sure, and extra wis mod on that combination isn't unbalancing and seems to align with how the feat is written.
okay, thank you for the clarification, Sub Zero and Honorable Goblin.
Then keeping in mind that you must also be using Elemental Fist, I agree the wording could justify adding Wis bonus to Frost damage as long as you DM considers it a separate roll rather than one total roll for damage.
I would still rule against it because I would say it is still all one damage roll.
This guy wrote Djinni Style and Marid Style (and the other elemental ones).
As the guy who wrote this style (and the other 3 elemental styles as well), I can say that the intent was for the bonus to apply to your elemental fist electricity damage.
At least that's how they all worked in my turnover.
Hope that helps!
Does this answer your question?
This guy wrote Djinni Style and Marid Style (and the other elemental ones).
Does this answer your question?
I actually don't find the author's intent a persuading argument personally. Once the author has submitted material to Paizo, it may be edited or even completely changed. Removing even one word from the author's original text can result in a completely different meaning.
So I think the text of the published rule should override an author's stated intent. However, in this case, I don't see a conflict.
Marid Style requires that you use Elemental Fist to deal cold damage to get the bonus.
Even if you have another source of cold damage, it is still one attack, and so one damage roll. That roll may include multiple dice, and different sources, but it still one roll.
Since you add the bonus to the roll, not dice or separate sources, it should only be applied once, regardless of how many sources of cold damage are included in the roll.
I'm not sure on everything from each swing being considered a single roll. That perhaps should be clarified, but a generic ruling could have some far-reaching consequences.
Additional points though:
All I can think of.
Based on the developer commentary it is supposed to affect only the damage from an Elemental Fist to deal cold damage.
I do agree that not everything should be considered a single roll, but that doesn't change how the style is supposed to funciton. It supposed to give a slight damage increase to cold damage cause by an Elemental Fist usage. It is not meant to add damage to other things.
In general RAI > RAW. That's why the CRB encourages the GM to use common sense in their role.
Now, it wouldn't be a big increase in dpr because the a character would only get to add the damage on one attack per round (because you have to be making an Elemental Fist attempt), but its not about whether the ability is overpowered by rather was it intended.
When you roll damage, you normally start with a die or dice from your weapon/spell.
Then you add modifiers. Modifiers can be a flat bonus, or additional dice.
Since extra dice are still modifiers to the damage roll, they are not separate rolls in and of themselves.
So, the base damage plus all modifiers, including additional dice, are a single damage roll.
A +3 longsword with a 16 STR dealing +3d6 sneak attack with a flaming weapon has one damage roll of
1d8+3+4d6 (of which 1d6 is fire)
Good point Samasboy - although a rider spell (from spell storing or other) would be a separate roll.
When you roll damage, you normally start with a die or dice from your weapon/spell.
Then you add modifiers. Modifiers can be a flat bonus, or additional dice.
Since extra dice are still modifiers to the damage roll, they are not separate rolls in and of themselves.
So, the base damage plus all modifiers, including additional dice, are a single damage roll.
A +3 longsword with a 16 STR dealing +3d6 sneak attack with a flaming weapon has one damage roll of
1d8+3+4d6 (of which 1d6 is fire)
I was thinking a single roll of the die, but I see your point.
Good point Samasboy - although a rider spell (from spell storing or other) would be a separate roll.
Thanks, and I would agree that something like a spell that isn't described as a modifier or bonus should probably be considered a separate roll.