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I love PF and have playing ever since the tranisition from 3.5. Something I have noticed that has been a repeated problem is the bindings of the Adventure Paths. I looked through the forums to see if others have had similar problems, mainly finding that the CRB and APG have had issues. For me, this began with AP #26 (Six Fold Trial) and has continued up with my last purchase (PF #74, Sword of Valor). Out of all the APs I've bought, the following have had bad bindings that consist of loose pages:
AP#26
AP#27
AP#28
(This three, combined with AP #25 I combined into a binder, but I miss having them in their intact format)
AP#43
AP#44
AP#64
AP#74
I am not rough with my soft-covers, and have never had lssues with any of the Campaign Setting books, it seems like a problem that only occurs with the APs. My 'Sword of Valor' started coming out of the binding by the time I had gotten home from the FLGS where I purchased it. This never occured before #24, so I'm simply curious if something changed in the way the APs are produced. I am certainly more wary of buying an AP if I think that within a couple weeks, its going to be a pile of papers stuck loosely between two covers. Yeah, I could bind them, but that's not why I pay 20$ a pop for these books. Anyone else having this problem??
Also, I am aware o similar threads, but none seemed to be related to the quality of the APs specifically. (Though sometimes search-fu fails)
I've had problems with 3 soft covers.
Gods an magic.
The worldwound incursion.
Sword of valor.
I have about 6-7 complete APs and 10-15 campaign books, so it's not a huge issue. The only thing that worries me is that the two last books both have begun falling apart.
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I mentioned this problem a while ago. I noticed my Council of Thieves AP books were just falling apart. The initial responses I got seemed to imply that I must be using my books incorrectly. However, many more Paizo fans joined the thread to report the poor quality of their book binding. Eventually, Lisa Stevens commented in thread that my concerns had been noted (I'm paraphrasing).
Paizo knows their books are cheap. They are obviously aware of the problem and they don't care. From whom else are you going to buy your APs?
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Ive had similar problems with my Corebooks. They are such beautiful books yet the bindings fail within a few weeks of regular, careful, appropriate use. Its frustrating I grant you, Im not sure how to react. Hoping for compensation or a replacement is probably pointless but the cost of rebinding is daunting. Ive seen some 'how tos' online on binding yourself. Might have to give one these a look.
I never felt the need to post about it, but 'Sword of Valor' was the tipping point. I hadn't even thumbed through Shax's statblock as I sat at a stoplight when the page... came free. This happened the week before with the Yamasoth article in "Beyond the Doomsday Door", and in both cases created a domino effect on the adjoining pages. I'm not just talking about the AP coming loose but individual pages coming free, which seems to loosen the next page.. and the next..
Do those of you who are having these problems fold the front and back covers along the crease-lines near the spine before leafing thru the APs, or do you use them without pre-folding?
While I've yet to use any of the AP volumes mentioned by the OP, the ones I have used (25, 31, 32, 37, 38, 55, 56) have seen lots use and remain intact. I'm just wondering if it's been good-luck on my part or if pre-folding before opening is the difference maker.
No, no pre-folding. I didn't even own the module for 5 minutes before it began falling apart.(on the way home from the store). It doesn't seem to matter how I personally treat them (which is usually as gentle as I would treat any book I own), the spine problems seem to be at random. I have about 30 other volumes that I have treated exactly the same as the unbound ones that show no signs of coming loose. I don't know if its something that happens before shipping or during it (maybe the glue being used doesn't stand up to higher temperatures) but the problem never occurred until after "Council of Thieves" began.
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I have pretty much everything printed in the pathfinder line. Never had an issue with the hardcover books and only had 3 softcover books where I have an issue. Curiously the SAME 3 as you Montana77. In 2 of them pages fell out - gods and magic and sword of valor. In both cases binding appeared to fail and pages just fell out as you described Rakshasa. Reported sword of valor to customer service and they replaced. I have an issue with worldwound incursion in that the binding between the first page and rest has broken, but no pages have fallen out and all appear secure, there is simply an divide between the first page and the rest of the book. It does concern me that the latest 2 AP entries appear to have binding issues. Will wait on replacement and third part before I draw any conclusions.
Many of my books have heavy usage and I can say that Liathoron pre-folding idea bears some merit. I usually pre-fold and have 0 issues - I didn't with valor. Could be a reason.
While some products have had widespread issues that I've experienced (Gods & Magic for instance) - most of my personal experience with binding quality can be divided into two categories: Used-by-Me, and Used-by-Spouse.
Used-by-Me, and in quite good shape:
Runelords AP
Second Darkness AP
Kingmaker AP
1st & 3rd Printing Core Rulebooks (roughed up over several years, but a bit of tape keeps them in decent condition)
Used-by-Spouse, and in bad shape:
Council of Thieves AP
5th Printing Core Rulebook (cover torn completely off in just weeks)
A few others slipping my mind
Spouse also has used the Carrion Crown AP with no major issues.
That's just my personal experience of course, but a little care can go a long way often.
Do those of you who are having these problems fold the front and back covers along the crease-lines near the spine before leafing thru the APs, or do you use them without pre-folding?
That keeps the cover stiffness from tensing all the way to the spine? Interesting idea, thanks Laithoron.
I am having the same problem with some of mine as well. It is not wear and tear either.
Two sessions ago as I was in the middle of my Reign of Winter: the Shackled Hut game I had two pages of Snows of Summer fall out in the middle of the game as I was flipping back to read the random encounter chart.
The APs are pretty with great contents but that gave me pause on their physical durability.
Too much love? I see that people are serious here so I will say that I think this is an inherent problem with 100 or so page soft bound books. They are too big to staple like the traditional 32 page modules and the glued bindings can sometimes come apart. It does seem a bit random to me but vigorous use definitely can affect the AP volumes.
There are some nice trade offs of the "perfect bound" (I believe they are called) volumes however. They are easier to store in stacks and on shelves because of the flat binding unlike staple bound volumes that are wider at the staple end with resulting storage problems.
That's the thing. It's not vigorous use. My APs have pretty much been used equally. In fact the ones that I've mentioned have seen less use because I have yet to run them and have flipped through maybe twice (Wrath of the Rightetous AP and Shattered Star). Without evidence to the contrary, I'm strongly feel that it is a production issue, not wear and tear.
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Do those of you who are having these problems fold the front and back covers along the crease-lines near the spine before leafing thru the APs, or do you use them without pre-folding?That keeps the cover stiffness from tensing all the way to the spine? Interesting idea, thanks Laithoron.
Yeah, I havent heard this suggested before - it makes sense. I've certainly never pre-folded them and I've had a handful of frequently read volumes come apart a little. I'll try this.
Cheers.
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It may have to do with the glue used and your humidity levels. If the air in your home/city is just dry enough, it can cause the glue to crack and lose its gluey-ness. I know it doesn't help you and I'm sorry that it's happening, but I work in publishing and when you ship books to different climates you get some pretty unexpected results.
I once took a paperback printed in the UK on holiday to the Amazon. Within fifteen minutes of getting off the airplane, the book had swollen to at least three times its original thickness. It was part of a box set, and it never again fit its case.
I'm just trying to explain that this doesn't necessarily mean that Paizo's printers are using sub-standard glue, it might just be an unfortunate coincidence of it not being able to withstand your specific climate.
I can´t recall having any trouble with any book, HC or SC. But then, most of the AP volumes go to the shelf being read once, if even that. But even those books I´ve used more often have no trouble in that regard so far. Maybe Zahariel has a valid point there. (I had my share of books damaged through the shipping process, but as they ship overseas, that is probably to be expected. I don´t even complain about minor creases these days. Overall, that problem has lessened quite a bit.)
I'm not sure its the climate.
When I lived in Indiana 3 years ago,I bought 'The Sixfold Trial" and was forced to return it to the store within a week (binding issues). My replacement copy did the same thing within about a week of that. I had always bought APs at the same store and had never had issues until that point.
When I moved to New Orleans, the same problems seem to be occurring, though seemingly at random. For example, my APs #46 - #48 have never had any binding issues, but the three before that (43-45) all are barely intact.
The fact that I am having the exact same problem in two very different climates suggests that the deterioration of my books may not be environmentally induced.
I own about a dozen APs, and I just want to mention that my Sword of Valor also had several pages fall out. I did not prefold the covers. But I am also exceedingly gentle with things I view as collectible (such as APs): I avoid making wrinkles and I never press down or lay flat these books.
I noticed that several people mentioned the same AP issue...
Do those of you who are having these problems fold the front and back covers along the crease-lines near the spine before leafing thru the APs, or do you use them without pre-folding?That keeps the cover stiffness from tensing all the way to the spine? Interesting idea, thanks Laithoron.Yeah, I havent heard this suggested before - it makes sense. I've certainly never pre-folded them and I've had a handful of frequently read volumes come apart a little. I'll try this.
Cheers.
Majuba: Exactly, it helps reduce strain on the spine of the book. :)
Steve: Hope it helps, this is always the first step I take after un-boxing — even before flipping thru to scan for artwork.
Rakshaka: You might want to give it a try. I routinely leave AP volumes open on my desk for days or weeks at-a-time, but with the cover creases actually folded, there is very little stress exterted on the spine since only the pages themselves are bending rather than the binding.
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Paizo knows their books are cheap. They are obviously aware of the problem and they don't care. From whom else are you going to buy your APs?
You must be living in an alternate universe then. "Don't care" and "cheap" are not qualities I would ascribe to Paizo employees or their products. It sucks that you've had bad experiences and crappy luck but issuing broad disgruntled statements isn't the answer.
For the record, I own pretty much every book for Pathfinder (minus one hardcover and two softcovers) from every line (AP, Module, Campaign Setting, etc.) and I've never had a single problem. Not one. That's zero product defects for nearly 200 books. Using your anecdotal logic I could say that Paizo produces flawless products that never break because that's been my experience. I won't though, since I'm not in the habit of using my sole experience to fire off blanket statements.
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Paizo knows their books are cheap. They are obviously aware of the problem and they don't care. From whom else are you going to buy your APs?You must be living in an alternate universe then. "Don't care" and "cheap" are not qualities I would ascribe to Paizo employees or their products. It sucks that you've had bad experiences and crappy luck but issuing broad disgruntled statements isn't the answer.
For the record, I own pretty much every book for Pathfinder (minus one hardcover and two softcovers) from every line (AP, Module, Campaign Setting, etc.) and I've never had a single problem. Not one. That's zero product defects for nearly 200 books. Using your anecdotal logic I could say that Paizo produces flawless products that never break because that's been my experience. I won't though, since I'm not in the habit of using my sole experience to fire off blanket statements.
You seem to have ignored the other contributors to this thread that have had similar problems to mine. I'd also point out that my conclusion was not based solely on my own experience, but on the experiences of others that contributed to another thread, just like this one, that I initiated about two years ago. A representative of Paizo responded to the complaints with a 'duly noted.' Here we are two years later, and the problem persists. Is the problem widespread or statistically significant to warrant a response? I don't know. However, given the response I received and the persistence of the problem I don't think Paizo feels it's worth changing their current practices to fix it.
I stand by my statement. They do not care. If you think a publishing company's main concern is not earning and retaining money, perhaps you are living in an alternative universe.
@Gui_Shih,
Have you tried Laithoron's suggestion? I've had plenty of large softcover books (not from Paizo, just in general) from plenty of publishers have problems when I forget to do that. Like Laithoron, I fold the front and back covers along the crease lines that are near the spine. It kind of locks in the part of the book where the pages are glued to the spine. Really works. That's why the crease lines are there.
Also, this statement:
I stand by my statement. They do not care. If you think a publishing company's main concern is not earning and retaining money, perhaps you are living in an alternative universe.
Since when is the concern earning and retaining money exclusive of caring for your customers? It's not like the one precludes the other.
Paizo knows their books are cheap. They are obviously aware of the problem and they don't care. From whom else are you going to buy your APs?You must be living in an alternate universe then. "Don't care" and "cheap" are not qualities I would ascribe to Paizo employees or their products. It sucks that you've had bad experiences and crappy luck but issuing broad disgruntled statements isn't the answer.
For the record, I own pretty much every book for Pathfinder (minus one hardcover and two softcovers) from every line (AP, Module, Campaign Setting, etc.) and I've never had a single problem. Not one. That's zero product defects for nearly 200 books. Using your anecdotal logic I could say that Paizo produces flawless products that never break because that's been my experience. I won't though, since I'm not in the habit of using my sole experience to fire off blanket statements.
You seem to have ignored the other contributors to this thread that have had similar problems to mine. I'd also point out that my conclusion was not based solely on my own experience, but on the experiences of others that contributed to another thread, just like this one, that I initiated about two years ago. A representative of Paizo responded to the complaints with a 'duly noted.' Here we are two years later, and the problem persists. Is the problem widespread or statistically significant to warrant a response? I don't know. However, given the response I received and the persistence of the problem I don't think Paizo feels it's worth changing their current practices to fix it.
I stand by my statement. They do not care. If you think a publishing company's main concern is not earning and retaining money, perhaps you are living in an alternative universe.
I don't think they don't care, but I think they are in a place where the quality of binding isn't as important to them as quality of print and content so that is where they focus their costs. I know that many, many people had problems with the bindings in the 1st and 2nd print CRB and 1st print Bestiary. The official word from Paizo is that there is no known issue. The truth of the matter is that binding is a frequent and reoccurring issue. This is why I've started only getting PDF's from paizo. Between editing issues in the first print runs and binding issues I find it better to just get digital versions.
I've not had any trouble with a single AP issue until Sword of Valor. I've got them all from #1 till now and this is the only one that I've had a page fall out of on my initial read through - just flipping through the pages. All the rest of the AP books I have are consistently high quality and have had no issues at all.
Until I experience otherwise I'll figure this is maybe a one-time thing, or at least something that is uncommon, and not worry about it. I wouldn't base my entire buying behavior and place full judgement on such a small occurrence. I think Paizo has earned more than that from me over the past years.
I've not had any trouble with a single AP issue until Sword of Valor. I've got them all from #1 till now and this is the only one that I've had a page fall out of on my initial read through - just flipping through the pages. All the rest of the AP books I have are consistently high quality and have had no issues at all.
Until I experience otherwise I'll figure this is maybe a one-time thing, or at least something that is uncommon, and not worry about it. I wouldn't base my entire buying behavior and place full judgement on such a small occurrence. I think Paizo has earned more than that from me over the past years.
I can totally appreciate that. My experience and that of my local gaming buddies is not the same as yours. Quite frankly, if binding issues were all I had problems with I would probably still buy physical books, but the first run editing in the hardcover line was so bad in the first 3 years (APG and UM in particular) that I couldn't bring myself to lay down $40-50 for a book that will need heavy errata AND fall apart. As always ymmv.
I put in my request for a replacement to Customer Service and they responded promptly and are shipping me a replacement.
Paizo's customer service is awesome.
BigDTBone: I see that you're a modules subscriber, does this mean that you get your AP volumes from your LGS? If so, have you noticed any difference in the durability of books you buy locally vs. online? If so, it could be an issue with how they are shipped and stored before they come into your possession.
The shipped stuff is usually pretty good, sometimes the spines get crushed a little at the corner (I guess from bring dropped). But I've never had problems with the stapled products comming apart. The glued bind from the APs generally wear out before I'm done running them, but that doesn't bug me because I know I'm hard on them. Although, the last AP I ran was 100% from PDF.
Personally, I've never had any of my books fall apart in that way...though I admit my 1st printing Core Rulebook is getting close to giving up the ghost, but after this long, and being used by a 6 person group...I'm not terribly surprised.
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I have had only one book actually fall apart, Gods and Magic. All of the rest of my books are still in one piece.
Based on some of what I have read I would be curious to know how many of the "bad" books were purchased from a storefront, versus direct from Paizo.
I caught at least one person commenting that their book fell apart on the way home from the store. How many people (mis)handled that book before you bought it?
Obviously, no one is trying to say that peoples books are not falling apart. Some of us are simply trying to point out that Paizo's books are not all falling apart and that there may be some other explanations than, "Paizo does not care."
Yes,
...a publishing company's main concern is ... earning and retaining money...
Paizo has repeatedly shown that they care. They have a solid customer service focus, and you only have to pay attention to the customer service sub-forum to see this. No other company in my decades of gaming has sent me a brand new copy of a book, just because I received a copy with a bad spine, none.
They bend over backwards for their fans, if that is not caring, I don't know what is.
Well, so far (touch wood) I've had no issues with product bindings.
The volume (or lack thereof, I've only seen maybe half a dozen this month) of complaints doesn't seem to be enough to indicate any real production issues.
The fact it's happening repeatedly to certain individuals would indicate the need to investigate what the common factors are, though. I'd have to agree with looking at purchase location and local climate as the first things to check into.
As others have stated, customer service from Paizo is fantastic. Whenever I've seen anyone with an actual faulty product, there's been a reply that a replacement will be in their next shipment. The only times I've needed to contact them have been to arrange for specific items to be packed separately to my main order and they certainly dealt with that in an efficient and friendly manner.
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There was another thread, that I can't find now that someone suggested that you take your AP's to a print shop like Fed-ex/Kinkos and have 3 AP's bound with spiral bindings. This cost me 6 bucks. My thing is that I need this to function at the gaming table, I need the thing to lay flat while I am running the sessions. Links for pictures are below. Will post again to this thread to after a few months weekly gaming table use/ GM planning use to let everyone know how this is holding up and if I plan on having the second half of this AP spiral bound as well.
[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/forn_usk/IMG_20131204_1632361_zpsd 9a356a7.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/forn_usk/IMG_20131204_1631451_zps4 59aa6c1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/forn_usk/IMG_20131204_1630371_zpsa ef8be4d.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/forn_usk/IMG_20131204_1630261_zps1 9e712da.jpg[/IMG]
This is exactly what I did. I had pages falling out of AP#73 (like many others have also had). That being said, I also have AP volumes 31-75 and this is the only one I have had pages falling out. But, this volume has also seen heavy use at the gaming table and in transport (in a back pack while riding to and from work on a bike 3x/week for a few months).
I have never had any issues with customer service replacing damaged items so I would give them a call if you have something that is falling apart right after you buy it. Someone in an above post mentioned that they are even having problems with pages falling out of the hard back books. I have all the hardback Pathfinder books including the first printing of the CRB that has seen VERY HEAVY use and never had issues with the hard backs. I also traveled for 3 years with that book, from coast to coast with 110 degree heat in the summer in western Colorado to -17 degree cold in the winter in New Hampshire. That book should be falling apart... but it still makes the trip to the weekly game every week with no issues. My point is that if there are issues with specific books that other people are having issues with, contact customer service. If you are having issues with all your Pathfinder books... I would look for a user end cause.
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Out of the 3 perfect bound books I've bought from my FLGS 2 have fallen apart, losing pages. I am pretty sure it's because of rough handling before I bought the book. Out of the whole run of AP's I have had one lose a few pages after I left it in my car for a few hours in the winter.
Gui_Shih perhaps you are not contacting Paizo in the correct way. The two defective products I received were immediately replaced and the customer service folks were the best, far and above almost every other company I have ever had to contact with a problem. Mayhaps grousing complaints on a message-board is not the best way to resolve customer or product issues...
Keep in mind, better binding means more cost.
It's not that Paizo doesn't care, it's that they have done research on the optimal point on the quality/cost curve, and settled where they are now.
The average binding at a lower price is a better business decision for them.
I don't know if it was mentioned yet but on the front cover near the binding there is a crease. I believe that bending the cover at that crease instead of just opening the book wide open may alleviate the problem. I'm not sure though.
Yep, pre-folding the cover along the creases will certainly reduce the stress on the binding of the book, as you're then allowing about 5mm of the page to stay in place in the binding rather than placing the stress directly on the glued portion.
I've been pre-folding my books ever since people started talking about having binding issues.
I'm a collector of RPG books and I own a lot of pathfinder adventure path books. From rise of runelords to reign of winter. No problems. Its the hardbound books that I'm experiencing problems. Everyone of them feels like they are going to start falling apart. I've hardly used them yet the binding is loose and detached from hardcover spine. I guess you get what you pay for. I noticed they are printed in China. I've purchased the 4th edition d&d books and no problems with the binding. Seems to be higher quality physically speaking. I checked.. printed in USA.
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So 6 years after the last post in this thread might be a bit of thread necromancy but here goes. As you can see by my very stylish charter tag I own every AP. I have personally used and run RotRl, CotCT, LoF, and CC. I loaned my RotRl, Second Darkness to a member of our group to GM. My gaming Group also used someone else’s copy of Serpents Skull. I have also leafed through every module when it arrives and then it goes in a cardboard magazine holder on a shelf to keep it nice and strait and in pristine order. We have had no issues whatsoever with any of those bindings and most of them look as nice as they did when they arrived despite using them to play. I have never creased the covers before hand.
All that changed a few months ago when my Council of Thieves chapter 1 came out of its place on my shelf. Within 5 minutes the 2nd page fell out and a few others are dangerously loose. I thought to myself, “wow, that’s unusual. Must have gotten a bad binding. “. While disappointed I figured, “well nothing can be done now”. And I have treated that volume like a fragile priceless thing lest more pages fell out. So I am not on volume 2 of Council of thieves. And since I had the issue on volume 1 I was being careful. And what happens? Yep, you guessed it. Page 2 slid right out of it after 10
Minutes of gentle use.
So yeah, pretty sure Council of Thieves in general has issues with its bindings.
I will try the prefold from now on since I had this issue but I do hate the creased look.
Prefolding is remarkably effective, in my experience.
It looks like it’s not going to do much, but I think it means that lying the book flat doesn’t put strain on the glue. Whatever the reason, I found it made a huge difference.